SPOILERS-Tatan's PBEM10 Thread

[Rowain]

Also as a side note, your Post in the Public Thread............... I agree withthe sentaiment, but you have reveiled to all your current Dealing with other people (or lack thereof) which i think could have been better shown by just Choping out the Corner with Meatbalz Pic and Mouseover and posting that instead.

The posted picture only shows Quin's dealings not yours (besides the fact that you are at war with Quin).

[Tatan]

Geez, three days since my last update? Say it ain't so, bro!

So where were we... ah, yes, Meatbalz sent Iron to Serdoa. Well.

I assume you refer to my supplying Serdoa with iron. The fact is, what he offers is very attractive.

All game, you've refused trades with me because they don't benefit you more than me. For example refusing OBs because you hadn't defogged a route to my lands - something that didn't stop anyone else. But despite you refusing to trade unless it benefits you, you want me to do the opposite when Serdoa puts an offer on the table and all I have from you is a request not to trade him iron. I don't think that's reasonable.

I saw your post in the public player thread, and if you really think I'm giving Serdoa iron for nothing in return, you're either angry (which I think is the case) or you're being naive.

I'm willing to bet that what I get in exchange from Serdoa is significantly better than what you got from CH in exchange for letting him found on your iron island - so do you really feel you're in a position to criticize me? And bear in mind, I've locked Serdoa out of access to iron unless I give it to him. You gave the strongest player in the game the chance to settle his own iron source, for basically nothing.

I'll tell you how I think the next turns are going to play out. You'll make some brief headway against Serdoa. He'll start pushing you back and you'll be at each others' throats. You'll hate him, and me, me even more than him probably. You might even decide to take a shot at my central island city. Sometime around T95-100, Cyneheard is going to declare war on you and, even if you have a few turns' warning, you simply won't be able to muster the troops to repel him because you're committed in the South against Serdoa.

Simply put, you've gotten in bed with the wrong person. Try to take a step back and look at how you and I have interacted all game. You've rebuffed me all game long, because I built a wonder every player had the chance to build. You've buddied up to the undispited number 1 power, given him game-long iron access for very little in return, and are sharing military plans with him despite the fact those plans put you in a very vulnerable position when your NAP expires and that he's already shown in this game he's devious.

I can understand you're angry - emotions run high during war. I hope you'll take a step back once the initial anger wears off and realize that maybe I'm right.

MB

...

There's a lot of stuff in this email, so I'm going to break it down.

I assume you refer to my supplying Serdoa with iron. The fact is, what he offers is very attractive.

All game, you've refused trades with me because they don't benefit you more than me. For example refusing OBs because you hadn't defogged a route to my lands - something that didn't stop anyone else. But despite you refusing to trade unless it benefits you, you want me to do the opposite when Serdoa puts an offer on the table and all I have from you is a request not to trade him iron. I don't think that's reasonable.

Umm, I never said anything about how good the deal was for you. It is my personal belief [as I touched on briefly in my previous update] that you probably would have been better off attacking Serdoa for some cheap cities, but trading iron for something else important is certainly not a bad idea.

I saw your post in the public player thread, and if you really think I'm giving Serdoa iron for nothing in return, you're either angry (which I think is the case) or you're being naive.

In actuality, neither. I was merely posting something in order to spin the story to the other players. It did make me feel better, though, I admit.

I'm willing to bet that what I get in exchange from Serdoa is significantly better than what you got from CH in exchange for letting him found on your iron island - so do you really feel you're in a position to criticize me? And bear in mind, I've locked Serdoa out of access to iron unless I give it to him. You gave the strongest player in the game the chance to settle his own iron source, for basically nothing.

Since making that deal, I admit that I have come to have some regrets. I seemed reasonable at the time because I wasn't sure that I could settle the medium island in time before Cyneheard claimed most of it, and the deal secured my two cities there. Additionally, coming off of my horrible mistaking of a scouting galley for a settling galley, it seemed an easy way to smooth relations and pave a path to friendship, while I have since learned several things to make me suspicious of Cyneheard. However, there is one important caveat: I got the better iron city by far, and the vulnerable position of his city allows me to disconnect his iron much easier, because I can either pillage the mine itself OR simply raze the city.

So would I make that deal again, if given another chance? No. But the past cannot be undone, so I must move forward. Not that I plan to admit any of this to Meatbalz, of course.

I'll tell you how I think the next turns are going to play out. You'll make some brief headway against Serdoa. He'll start pushing you back and you'll be at each others' throats. You'll hate him, and me, me even more than him probably. You might even decide to take a shot at my central island city. Sometime around T95-100, Cyneheard is going to declare war on you and, even if you have a few turns' warning, you simply won't be able to muster the troops to repel him because you're committed in the South against Serdoa.

Someone seems to have a very low opinion of me. The first part about a stalemate with Serdoa is actually not far from the truth, but hate him? I have no reason to. I attacked him, he tries to defend himself; nothing there makes me mad ["No, no, you're supposed to roll over and play dead! DEAD!"]. Meatbalz does make me mad, but mad enough to "take a shot" at his home island? That would get me, at BEST, a few far-off cities I have no hope of defending and which would cost hell in maintenance; and how would I even get there? The only way to avoid sailing right through Russian territory would take like 20 turns! Seriously, I'm not always the brightest player, but I'm not THAT dumb. As for a war with Cyneheard... even if that happens [and admittedly Meatbalz seems dead-sure of it, although that could be him trying to make me paranoid], I'm not that worried; I'll explain why later on.

Simply put, you've gotten in bed with the wrong person. Try to take a step back and look at how you and I have interacted all game. You've rebuffed me all game long, because I built a wonder every player had the chance to build. You've buddied up to the undispited number 1 power, given him game-long iron access for very little in return, and are sharing military plans with him despite the fact those plans put you in a very vulnerable position when your NAP expires and that he's already shown in this game he's devious.

Correction: I've rebuffed you all game-long because you built a wonder I was like two turns away from building. Now, the interesting thing here is the fact that Meatbalz seems to know about the previous conversation I had with Cyneheard. Fortunately, I was careful not to share any actual plans and instead just talked about what I had already done [which Meatbalz would have got from Serdoa anyway]. I'll need to be very careful around Cyneheard now, since he seems to be, in MB's own words, "devious". I won't actually call him on it, but I'll put it this way: as of now, I have no friends in this game.

'Course, this all could be a trap by MB to make me suspicious... but if so, it worked! In fact, after playing the turn [T85], I send a note to Cyneheard asking for a NAP extension to Turn 110. We'll see how he takes it. Man, on some level I almost want him to declare, but I also know he is an incredibly experienced general [compared to me].

Anyway, this is what I sent back to Meatbalz:

Allow me to clarify one point: I am not mad about the deal itself [regardless of the terms]; what I am mad about is the fact that you are trading/giving/whatever a very valuable strategetic resource to someone I'm at war with. Serdoa went from the perfect victim to a deathtrap in a very short number of turns, and your iron is a primary contributor to that. To me, this is tantamount to Serdoa buying an army off of you to use against me; it is perfectly logical and justifiable, but surely you can understand that I'm still going to be angry at you.

As for the Public Player Thread post, that was mostly anger, I admit.

I won't go into the agreement I made with Cyneheard other than to say that under the cicrumstance at the time of the deal, it certainly looked balanced to me, and while it may not have been the smartest thing I believe it was justifiable.

Regarding your predictions for my actions in the upcoming turns, all I have to say is that I certainly will try to prevent them from happening, though I grant it might require skill I don't have.

I don't doubt the validity of many of your arguments, but I will simply point out that things looked very different when I made many of my now-questionable decisions.

-Tatan

Not all of it is 100% truthful, but whatever. This was sent several days ago, and Meatbalz hasn't responded yet; at first I though my wonky email [stupid Yahoo] ate the response, but still nothing has come in after my post in the IT thread, so I guess he isn't planning to respond. :\


Actual Turn:
Typical war stuff. Blah blah blah units moving around blah blah blah I found Serdoa's Moai city



blah blah blah Russian worker captured near Yakutsk blah blah blah Lookie here, I got mahself a big ol' stack



Okay, it's not actually that impressive. But it'll get the job done.


Speaking of the war, before I played the turn Serdoa sent this over:

I wouldn't say I had to pay nothing for the Iron. Sometimes you give up land and gold and stuff to the one attacking you so that he stops - and sometimes you give that to someone else so you can fight the one attacking you.

And yes, I was really lucky that you could not take the city last turn.

Kind regards,
Serdoa

But more importantly, he also sent this:

Hey Tatan,

I played the turn right now and looked at our situation. I think we can pretty much call it a stalemate. I might be wrong and you have somewhere hidden such a big army that I will lose, but I got Feudalism this turn. Additionally you might not even take that many cities anyway, simply because I might sell them for resources and units. So, that doesn't make too much sense for you now does it?

You can probably take my city on the island, but except for the stone (which we easily could find a solution for like trading it to you for free when you want to build a wonder with stone with at least 5 turns prior notice about it) it is not really all that useful for you anyway.

Also, I again ask you to please look at the demos. Cyneheard is running away in pop and cities and we both know what that means. Yeah, you can try to take me, but that will hurt you more then it helps you. I propose something different instead:

- Stone-deal as per above
- I will spread Buddishm in every of your cities which doesn't have a religion and once in cities with a religion present. You will give me a galley for getting them to you and you will receive 0.5 gold / turn / city of yours which has Buddishm as religion. So basically, I make sure that you can profit from religious civics and you get some gold on top of it. Yeah, I know you can get more by taking it - but again, that does cost more as well. The spread of Buddishm with missionaries will happen as soon as possible after we ended war but not later then T95 (one city will be devoted to it).

You might be wondering why I still proposing those deals: I like my game, the idea behind it. I have tried something similar in SP but never liked it there. This time, it is fun to see it working. I would like to go on with that, knowing that I probably won't have any chance at winning with it. But that in return means also that I am not one of the competitors you have to take care off. Cyneheard is. And if he goes off attacking someone soon and feels save because we still are at war - well, I guess this time a suprise attack could work

Please think about that. Maybe you have other ideas. Let me know them. If you rather try to kill me off, thats ok btw. I just thought I tell you the feeling I have when I look around ingame.

Kind regards,
Serdoa

Oh, intriguing. However, I want Yakutsk.

Alright, I've looked at the game, and I agree that there is definitely a need for peace. I would like to negotiate the terms some, though.

Unless you have some vast army ready to drop of at Yakutsk next turn, it is mine for the taking [you will see my army in place when you load up the turn]. I want to come out of this war with something concrete, even if it is only a buffer city, so I would like Yakutsk to be gifted to me as part of the peace deal.

The other proviso regarding religion spread is perfectly acceptable to me; I already have a number of spare galleys to assist in ferrying missionaries over.

If these terms are not acceptable to you, feel free to launch a counter-proposal, I'm open to negotiations.

And lastly, let me thank you for remaining civil and courteous throughout, despite being the victim of this attack. I appreciate it. It just seems like so many of the wars in other games have ended up with both sides vowing never to play with each other again.

-Tatan

I'm sincere about that last part; this war has been a lot more clean than some of the other wars I have seen play out.

Hi Tatan,

I took a look myself in the game. I see what you mean and can also understand that you want to get something more then the religion spread out of it. Can we find a possibility for a stone-deal, maybe similar to the one I proposed earlier but with changed roles? As reminder, that was free gifting of stone whenever it is requested with an at least 10-turn warning upfront. Veto-rights if you would need it at that time yourself of course. I would trust that we both would be fair with that deal.

Please let me know if that is acceptable to you.

As for the civil-part: That probably is because I understand why you thought attacking me is a good idea.

Kind regards,
Serdoa

Sounds good to me; Stone for 10 turns is a small sacrifice, especially if it pushes Serdoa to get more wonders.

Alright, I think I can agree to that.

Just to get everything clear and pretty:
-The city of Yakutsk shall be gifted to the Dutch Empire.
- The Russian Empire will spread Buddhism to every Dutch city which doesn't have a religion and once in cities with a religion present. At least one galley will be supplied for transportation of the missionaries.
-The Dutch Empire will receive 0.5 gold per turn per Dutch city with Buddhism in it.
-For one time, the Russian Empire may request the stone for 10 turns, provided a 5-10 turn warning has been provided and the Dutch Empire is not actively using the stone.

I think that about covers it. I assume Yakutsk will be offered as part of a peace treaty in-game for 10 turns of enforced peace.

Tell me where you want the galley for the missionaries, I'll go ahead and send it.

-Tatan

Hopefully this will be the final deal. Yaaaaay.

Anyway, by now you've surely figured out why I'm not so scared of Cyneheard anymore. I think I can get Maces by the T95, in addition to already having a large army anyway. It remains to be seen what I should do with it.

Sorry this has been a text-heavy report, but there was a lot of diplo and not a lot of game.

[Adlain]

[COLOR="Red"]

Damn Back button on my mouse (just lost my entire reply.......... )

Lets try again.
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Just a quick post to say afew things

1) Good job on the Diplo no complaints from me (not that it matters)

2) As for meatbalz, i wont say what i think about his email on a public forum, however suffice it to say:
[INDENT]a) My responce would be less Civil, and possably involving afew choice words from the english dictionary.
b) i am, like you said, angry at him "for the Moment" but i see no reason, under the right curcomstances, we cannot work together at some point in the future of this game[/INDENT]

3) The Serdoa deal looks great from our point of Veiw, we are getting

• Free Religion
  
• Free City (no Rioting)
  
• Stone
  

All for afew warrior class Troops, and without leaving ourselves ripe for a glorious Backstap that some seem to feel will happen. I will note that i think serdoa will want more than 1 hit with the stone, i know i would.

4) As for Cyneheard, i will grant that he can be devious, however he has:

• sofar honoured evry deal we have made,
• didnt over react to our Diplo rant about the phantom settler galley,
• Dispite being the runaway, has delt with us fairly as far as i can tell.

Have we gotten into bed with the wrong one, meh how knows. this game is still in its Infancy, Look at RBPB 2, by this stage we had not had the CoW, the Slaze Back stab, the Korean-HRE non-war, the City Cheese, the Gold Cheese to name the few highlights that i can remember from that game. we have along way to go and plenty of time to re-think our position if needed.

-Adlain

EDIT- we are definatly winning on the Post Spam Count, so that must count for somthing Right

[Adlain]

Hello......................
















.....................................Anybody

[Tatan]

Oi, I only just played a new turn last night, at which point my report would have been something like, "k turn dun stuff happenz yaaaay".



Yes! I didn't completely lose out!

Civil Service is in and I enter the Medieval Era!

You know what this means...



The Org Religion revolt won't really do much good for a while, since I'm not planning on revolting to Buddhism until I'm sure Cyneheard isn't attacking me, but I may as well piggy-back it onto the other revolts.

So where am I going next?



Mace is the place! Not sure where I'll be going next, maybe Feudalism or Compass->Optics. HBR will be useful too eventually.



Cyneheard still hasn't responded about the NAP [although he did say he was going to after I chased him up about it], so I don't really want to vote for him, but at the same time Twinkletoes, while he has been nice, hasn't really done enough to warrant a vote [and I don't want to make Cyneheard angry], so I abstain. It's completely symbolic, anyway, I only have 1 Hindu city. Oh, speaking of which, Christianity spread to somewhere, too.

Somehow, I think I might not even need to hear back from Cyneheard:



Greaaaat. Feudalism means a counter-strike is mostly out of the question, I'll just have to play zone defense. Old Russian-war forces are en route to the front.

Looks like Cyneheard is building up his forces, in addition to everyone else:



Looks like I certainly succeeded in having an impact! Good to know I'm still number one in something.

Checked out Ad Hoc's Iron Island.



Strange that his and mine are so different. For comparison purposes, Monopoly only has two archers on defense right now, although it is preparing an ax-whip and has two spears sailing to it.

An enthralling look at the new city's buildings:



It already has Buddhism for culture, so I set it to a granary.

Free experience!



I expect more of these to show up around the Volcano Islands soon, which is why this Trireme is on patrol duty.


And that's about all. Meatbalz still hasn't responded, so I guess he has decided to treat me as a CTON opponent. His loss, especially if I go to war with Cyneheard, the one he's been agitating against for the entire game.

[novice]

Congrats on the new city!

I think Adlain was looking for lurkers. We're here, but your reports are detailed enough that I don't have any questions at the moment.

Staying in OR is going to cost you some gold due to its high civic upkeep. Otoh, you can benefit from the missionary ability even without a state religion.

OK, one question: Do you have enough land to win now? If not, where will you get it?

[Adlain]

Well i was looking for Lurkers (as i seem to be the only one posting my misguided thoughts/ Questions in here) and Tatan, and got both ()

@Tatan:
I am/ was just impatient to find out the results of our Diplo with Serdoa TBH. If, as it looks like we have a done deal we are done quite well for little penelty tbh.
Cyneheard worries me with a militry build up coupled with a Diplo Blackout of sorts............ the only thing i would caution you on is prodding this sleeping Tiger accidently in our direction by sending too meny troops to our NW cities. our core Island and southern Island are (just) enough to keep us from falling away too badly in Tech i think so they must be our prioity defence wise with the only exception being Iron Island - pump that city with defenders!!!! If we lose iron we are toast.

[Tatan]

Really quick note:

T110 extension is fine with me.

Well done on the peace deal with Serdoa; Yakutsk means you've only got 41 more Risk territories to go! Perhaps Serdoa has learned the lesson of "Don't Be Last In Power."

Ahg, Cyneheard y u no b predictablol?

[Tatan]

Sorry about posting [or lack of thereof], I expect to play a new turn THIS AFTERNOON, so I'll do some sort of update later.

Until then, responding to other posts!

Staying in OR is going to cost you some gold due to its high civic upkeep. Otoh, you can benefit from the missionary ability even without a state religion.

OR costs are minimal right now, because of ORG and only minimal levels of inflation. Now that Cyneheard is not attacking me, I plan to revolt to Buddhism next turn [choking for happiness right now].

OK, one question: Do you have enough land to win now? If not, where will you get it?

Ooo. Toughie. Victory is something I haven't thought about that much yet, mainly because I'm not confident enough in my diplomatic skills to keep any plan intact long enough. I can definitely say, though, that I do not have enough land yet. Because of my comparatively weaker cities to others [due to my inferior micro, and things like MB's extra GL+ToA trade routes], I really need more land if I'm going to win. Getting it is another thing entirely. Before Cyneheard's agreement to the NAP-extension, I would have said that I was going to destroy his initial force and press into his turf, but obviously I cannot do that now. Now, I plan to bide my time and see what happens; I have enough military to blunt almost any attack right now [although of course there will need to be a few maces and x-bows built], so I can afford to tech up to East Indiamen [I KNEW the Dutch would be useful!], after which I can launch super-naval assaults that will be an incredible pita to defend from, especially if I can get the circumnavigation bonus. Or, at least, that's one plan. Honestly, I have no idea what I'm doing; suggestions are welcome!

@Tatan:
I am/ was just impatient to find out the results of our Diplo with Serdoa TBH. If, as it looks like we have a done deal we are done quite well for little penelty tbh.
Cyneheard worries me with a militry build up coupled with a Diplo Blackout of sorts............ the only thing i would caution you on is prodding this sleeping Tiger accidently in our direction by sending too meny troops to our NW cities. our core Island and southern Island are (just) enough to keep us from falling away too badly in Tech i think so they must be our prioity defence wise with the only exception being Iron Island - pump that city with defenders!!!! If we lose iron we are toast.

Yeah, I think we did quite well in the treaty, considering my bungled military operations; Serdoa seemed to really wanted to get back to building wonders. And don't worry about the iron island, in a few turns' time it will have 2 archers, 2 spears, and an ax. The upside of having a city with precisely two tiles that are good to work is that I can whip and whip and whip, all day long.

[Tatan]

It's more Anarchy in the [STRIKE]U.K.[/STRIKE] Netherlands, as I convert to the worship of the glorious Buddha.



Whatever Twinkletoes payed Cyneheard must have been pretty good, considering that is basically a wasted GE right there. No wonder Cyneheard made that pledge in the Public Thread to not pursue religious victory; if Hinduism spreads to Serdoa, TT could actually pass a Diplo vicory!

Speaking of GEs... Adlain, what do we want to do with ours that is coming in Pale? [~10 turns] Options are:
1)Rush a wonder
Probably the best use, but there are no useful wonders any time soon...
2)Settle in a city [presumably Mott or Daru]
I don't know the exact mathematics for this, but probably a solid option.
3)Bulb a tech [by the time he is born, the preferred tech will be Engineering]
Also a solid option, but I wasn't planning on getting Engineering any time soon.
4)Sell to another player [I'm sure Serdoa would be interested]
Intriguing. If successful, it would boost relations.

I'm caught between options 2 and 4; both could work out solidly. Unless you object, Adlain, in 4-5 turns I'll probably open negotiations with Serdoa for the GE, and if it's a no-go settle the GE in Mott.


While gaily pursuing the pirate galley, my trireme Iron Maiden notices that some brave Russian Serfs have taken up arms and began to defend the homeland for themselves:



Vive le Revolution! Rise up, hard workers, and cleanse Russia of the Bourgeois ruler Serdoa!


Demogs:



Everything looks good, EXCEPT for the GNP, which is horrible. Needs to improve soon, or I'll get left in the dust.

Oh, and notice that someone has matched my soldier count. It isn't MB, CH, or Serdoa [I have their graphs], so it has to be either Ad Hoc, about to put his signature "Battle King" to work, or Twinkletoes, scared to death of Meatbalz. Actually, come to think of it, I would not be overly surprised if AH and MB teamed up on TT [abbreviations FTW].

Speaking of which, in most alarming news, Meatbalz adopted Theocracy and Vassalage! The way I see it, there are two possible targets:
-Twinkletoes, the logical target for expansion and revenge.
-Myself, the illogical target for, uh, revenge, I guess? Who knows. If MB continues his radio silence I might email him myself. Something that did occur to me a little while back was that Serdoa could be using the Missionary deal to do scouting for Meatbalz, but seriously, Meatbalz would be an idiot to attack me, especially after telling me in his earlier email how stupid that would be if I did it to him. Also, I need to work on my habit of constructing borderline run-on sentences featuring tons of commas.


Elaborating on my poorly-expressed thought in my last post, here is my planned tech path:

1) Machinery: Maces+xbows FTW
2) Compass+Optics: Naval power FTW [and maybe I can snag the circumnav bonus if everyone else has been slacking]
3) Feudalism + Guilds[+ Banking?]: Grocers and knights FTW
4) Calendar: Can you guess where this is going?
5) Astronomy: East Indiaman for the freaking winzorz!

Seriously, though, galleons with +2 strength and +1 cargo space will be very difficult to counter on this map, especially if I can give them extra movement, because they can threaten several cities at once, AND they can do Sirian Doctrine perfectly, since there is no such thing as a collateral damage at sea [well, at least yet ]. Of course, I don't know who I'm going to target, if at all. But it is an interesting proposition...

Also, if there is extra land across the ocean, I will get to it first, although I doubt there is [land percentages under Victory screen don't match up].

Disadvantage of this route is that it leaves no shot at Liberalism, but that would be a stretch to the imagination anyway, considering my GNP. If Meatbalz stays true to Arabia and beelines Guilds for Camel Archers, I suspect Cyneheard will snag it.