[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[Rowain]

When and to what is your next traitchange? (or was it already?)

Looking forward to your soon to happen diplomatic endeavours

[pocketbeetle]

When and to what is your next traitchange? (or was it already?)

And to anticipate the obvious question...steady...next turn...

Gotcha!

Trait selection comes at the start of the turn after five turns before the turn multiple of 75 on Easy.
So T71 / 146 / 221 etc.
Ever so slightly confusing I know.

Looking forward to your soon to happen diplomatic endeavours

Me too!

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 146:

What a nice screenshot.



A tech, an Adaptive selection choice, and a GC in the background.
What more could a humble Boy-King ask for? =)

(A Tank, an army of Centaur Lancers and some Wine to celebrate?)
Well that last part may be possible, but let’s deal with the day to day first.


Workers continue to toil around KK, the megacity is coming along nicely now although the happy cap is getting tight.
The first Stonewarden produced by Caledor is getting a Mobility promotion and heading straight here: spreading RoK and building a Temple will add four happy instantly.



You can see Tibbers ambling steadily along in the background (for some reason nobody wants to rush him).

Selrahc’s miserable dirtbowl of a city, Sleigh Ride, failed to expand its borders this turn which confuzzled me, until I checked the civics.

Doh forgot about that.
Means his Monuments are producing 1.6 cpt rather than 2, so it takes an extra turn to reach the first expansion limit (5) and an extra seven turns to reach the second (50). I took the opportunity to move Amycus out of visibility range, although a wandering Hawk from Sareln’s capital could spot him. (Bob still doesn't have Hunting, even Selrahc has it now).

Settler produced in Avelorn, he’ll head to c9 (Bananas), next one after will head to c7 (Hippus Gems site).



CoL completed at 50% research, so I now have Courthouses to tempt me away from building military units (must resist).


Adaptive Trait:

Which just leaves the question: which trait did I pick?




To annoy Maksim, I think we should have a guessing game!













…













No?













…Are you sure?
















Oh go on then.

RAIDERS!

I think if I was playing balls to the walls to win, I’d have stuck with Financial.
It’s just such a powerful trait and would have allowed me to tech to oblivion while pulling off certain other tricks.

However, when I estimated how much commerce I’d lose by switching (~60c), which when roughly doubled, came out with an estimated loss of 100bpt from the max research rate.
That seemed an acceptable loss to me, particularly with Currency and Taxation up next (econo-techs).

Turns out the drop was even less, around 75bpt (~380 -> 305bpt).
And let’s face it, this way is a lot more fun.


Demographics:

Exports/Imports figure is out of whack because Selrahc signed OB with Iskender and Cull(?) this turn.
Can’t threaten him with cutting trade routes anymore.


Diplo:

All right, I've found out the solution to make the deal work for both
of us. I'm ready to trade the Wine now, so feel free to make the offer
and I'll accept it.

Iskender

So let’s get this straight:

T145 – Financial Pb gets told to piss off.
T146 – Raiders Pb gets told “Sure! Anything you want Sir!”.

I think I could get used to this!


On a more serious note, I don’t want to be constantly bullying Iskender into deals, it’s short-sighted and will almost certainly come back to bite me.
I’m going to have to find a way to make him happy now, I’m thinking either free Cows or limited loans of Copper, maybe both.
We’ll see.

[Ilios]

I'm glad you went with the "fun" choice (raiders) instead of the "boring" choice (financial).

<popcorn!>

Free Great Commander goes where?

[Mardoc]

I can't wait for T150 to roll around so I can end my self-imposed "no diplomatic meddling" penalty and get having some fun.

Veez passing a Calabim conspiracy to Selrahc?
Oooh the possibilities!

I take it this means you don't agree with Bob that the High Priests are unstoppable (or inevitable)?

Care to share your reasoning?

[pocketbeetle]

I'm glad you went with the "fun" choice (raiders) instead of the "boring" choice (financial).

<popcorn!>

Indeed! [FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Free Great Commander goes where?

Good question, still figuring out the answer.

I don't feel the need to keep him around for Recruit (Unique spell: gives one free random unit per three pop in the city of casting, consumes GC).
Which leaves a couple of other choices:

• Golden Age?
  Already got the GArt for the one man GA, keep the GC to get halfway towards a second?
  
• Join to a unit.
  Worth noting that GCs can be joined to Hawks, so I could get the GC to lonely Vanilla Ice within 2t.
  No immediate plans for war though...
  
• Command Post.
  Caledor is out, it's the main candidate for an OO asylum and means I should try to avoid spamming military units there. That leaves:
  • Avelorn - low hammer output (~25) and eventual Tower of Complacency (-10% mil unit prod), intention is to build units with food there?
    
  • KK - secondary production site, admittedly not that much more production than Avelorn, but probably best candidate.
    
  
  

I've moved the GC down to Avelorn and will join him with Pixiefoot while she goes to capture the second Elephant located on the Hippus border.
After that, I'm thinking Command Post in KK and use it as a second CA spam city.

[pocketbeetle]

I take it this means you don't agree with Bob that the High Priests are unstoppable (or inevitable)?

Care to share your reasoning?

I'll go into more depth on what I think everyone's doing on T150.

With regards to Bob's warning: I never considered the possibility of Selrahc heading for Theology.
Tower of Div'ing that tech would be an interesting move, it's a meaty tech at 8.2k beakers and would give Selrahc some very powerful units.

However I'm not sounding the emergency sirens as Bob seems to be.
Three reasons:

• I can see Selrahc's techs and I know that he's unlikely to get there within his stated timeframe.
  Needs to research Priesthood (860b) plus CoL (350b) plus Religious Law (2.6k b).
  That's an even heavier workload than my Arcane Lore scenario.
  • I'll also have adequate warning because I can't see any other reason for an Illian player to research Priesthood or Religious Law.
    
  
  
• Basing an army around 3 units works early game. Late game, less so.
  • If Selrahc wants to rely on only 3x base 1 movement units to defend his huge empire, my base 3 (4) units will run circles around him (literally). Being attacked by them would be a different story admittedly.
    
  • Snowfall is similarly limited, it's only got a range of one tile ie the High Priest has to be adjacent to cast.
    So stand off at a safe distance, strike with numbers, bring along a few Assassins.
    
  • Part of what makes Chalid so good (imo) is that his huge damage Pillar of Fire spell has a range of 2, plus he's base 2 movement also.
    
  
  
• Selrahc has expressed disdain for the High Priests in previous chats.
  Specifically remember him saying "they would be a long way away", but he could have been dissembling.
  

In my last post on the subject, I think I maybe got a little too focussed on Selrahc trying to ruin my plans than actually considering what he could do.
My worries about Arcane Lore have gone down a touch now that I know he's backfilling with Hunting/ BW, but I'm still in the dark about what he intends to take. I think the likelihood that he intends to sit 1 hammer away from completing the Tower, waiting for a really juicy tech, is growing and explains my insistence on that T165 deadline.

Short answer: I think Theology is a possibility, but I don't think it would be sensible. If Selrahc wants to do it, I'm okay with it.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 147:

CoL splashscreen:



The Winter Palace national wonder is, of course, utterly useless to me.

Speaking of palaces, along with the save came the comment:

I think my palace is a little more impressive than your throne

Turnlog confirms:



Selrahc completing the Bone Palace gives him a free GA, although I object strenuously to the game giving him a free Deer resource also – the last thing he needs is more food! Took me a little while, but I eventually found it at NutcrackeSuite.

Vanilla Ice is sneaking through a gap in cultural borders again, allowing Kes to get a good view of the Dwarven Empire.



At Karond Kar, Tibbers reaches his new home and starts juggling.



Iskender moved his Scout onto the same tile as my Adept, the Cow resource 1SW of c7.
Not sure what he’s doing.

In the SE, roading to c9 continues, Sleigh Ride expanded its borders.
Cute name for the Adept.



One thing that occurred to me while taking that screenshot, was how conspicuous the treeless plains hill North of c9 is, surrounded by jungle and forest all around.
It’s another good reason for claiming c9 quickly: the game will never allow a forest/jungle ‘improvement’ to grow onto a tile containing a hidden resource. (That gl tile 1SE of the Sugar also catches my eye).



Ending turn completed my first Stonewarden, I also slipped a Workboat into the build queue at Kwythellar, but with hindsight that was premature.
Offered Silks for Wine to Iskender.

[Jabah]

Just to have an idea of your military organisation:
What is now (and will be when at war) your MP in big cities/settlement (I guess depending on how exposed they could be) ?
It seems (from screenshot) that a few centaurs are on MP duty, which could be a 'waste' of their movement capacity (say compare to basic archers which are probably as good city defender if not better) and would therefore reduce your striking ability.

thanks

Jabah

[pocketbeetle]

Just to have an idea of your military organisation:
What is now (and will be when at war) your MP in big cities/settlement (I guess depending on how exposed they could be) ?

Hi Jabah,

As you say, it depends on how exposed the city is.
At the moment I'm happy with just one Warrior defending Kwythellar, and similarly one CA defending Caledor.
Nothing can get close to them without me knowing.

Avelorn and KK have and will continue to have larger garrisons to defend against any attack from Selrahc or Iskender.
The SE settlements have the highest risk of attack by Bob but ultimately are expendable. I'll be happy with 1-2 CAs in each.

It seems (from screenshot) that a few centaurs are on MP duty, which could be a 'waste' of their movement capacity (say compare to basic archers which are probably as good city defender if not better) and would therefore reduce your striking ability.

thanks

Jabah

You've definitely got a point here.

Archers are str 3/5 with 25% city defense (40h), CAs are str 6 with immunity to defensive strikes and 35% withdrawal (80h).
2800 hammers could get me 35 CAs or 25 CAs and 20 Archers (subtract 2 for the cost of the Archery range so 18 ).

I agree, it probably would be smarter to get some Archers also, but for four reasons I'm sticking with the all CA approach.

• Mobility.
  I don't think it's a waste of their movement. The point is that positioned correctly, I can move that stack of 35 CA to defend any city or settlement within 2 turns. Good for 1v1s, not so good for dogpiles.
  
• Ability to attack or defend.
  If needed I can attack out with CAs, aided by the immunity to defensive strikes and withdrawal rate.
  
• One unit per turn.
  Once the HE is built in Kwythellar (~4 turns from now) it'll be outputting 36h (base) + 110% -> 75 hammers.
  That's virtually one CA per turn, and with a couple more growths it'll start building up a surplus.
  
• Unit maintenance.
  With Raiders I'm down to <60% break even. Inflation still hurts quite a bit.
  

So for better or for worse, that's what I'm doing.


Diplo:

Awkward chat with Iskender:

(6:44:19 PM) Iskender: so what do you think about Bob's message?
(6:44:47 PM) pocketbeetle: Hah, was kind of wondering your opinion also.
I'm not too worried
(6:45:00 PM) pocketbeetle: He's right that Selrahc is going for Tower of Divination
(6:45:10 PM) pocketbeetle: I even helped him with Sun mana
(6:45:22 PM) Iskender: i think he's exaggerating a bit. a precise assassin strikes could take out the priest
(6:45:23 PM) Iskender: *priests
(6:45:32 PM) pocketbeetle: although he's building his own node now, so it only speeded him up a bit
(6:45:39 PM) pocketbeetle: yes, I agree too
(6:45:49 PM) pocketbeetle: High mobility to stay away, then strike with assassins
(6:45:55 PM) Iskender: why would you help him?
(6:46:26 PM) pocketbeetle: It was a pretty simple palace mana for palace mana deal, with a little extra trimming
(6:47:03 PM) pocketbeetle: I don't want to have to build a Law mana node of my own, because Law is so sucky
(6:47:29 PM) Iskender: a nice deal. i wish i could do the same. my palace mana is horse though
(6:47:50 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah, Hippus mana is pretty bad. Air is the only really useful one
(6:48:36 PM) pocketbeetle: If you want a sun loan eventually, feel free to ask, always an option
(6:49:01 PM) Iskender: i could use it, but i'm not sure if i could offer anything in return
(6:49:21 PM) pocketbeetle: Always lots to offer, we can work something out
(6:49:32 PM) pocketbeetle: How are things down South?
(6:49:45 PM) Iskender: have you read my message re. wines?
(6:49:53 PM) Iskender: i'll be able to trade it already
(6:50:19 PM) pocketbeetle: I did yes, although was waiting to see what was happening ingame
(6:50:24 PM) Iskender: a barb city has appeared in the south. imagine that...
(6:50:50 PM) pocketbeetle: And I really appreciate it. Yeah there's a barb city in the far NW also, my workboat saw it
(6:51:12 PM) Iskender: i discovered HBR. turn 147, yeah
(6:51:28 PM) pocketbeetle: Do you have Copper at all?
(6:51:46 PM) Iskender: not really
(6:52:44 PM) pocketbeetle: So what are you going to do for defense if the Calabim come knocking? I saw the hero archer btw, very nice
(6:53:00 PM) Iskender: cats
(6:53:31 PM) Iskender: i mean not of the feline kind
(6:53:33 PM) pocketbeetle: And then HA to follow up. I see, good idea
(6:53:35 PM) pocketbeetle: lol
(6:54:05 PM) pocketbeetle: Well, I was going to offer a Copper loan so you could upgrade melee units when you have BW, but I guess it's not worth much to you?
(6:54:54 PM) Iskender: not anymore i think
(6:55:12 PM) Iskender: i could arm a couple of warriors but that wouldn't make much difference
(6:55:55 PM) pocketbeetle: I understand. Well if you do need anything, let me know. The door's open.
(6:56:09 PM) Iskender: allright, thanks

I hadn't received the turn yet and was trying to avoid the subject of the Wines until I'd had a chance to look.
He seems to agree with me on the subject of the Illian High Priests though.

Also brief conversation with Selrahc:

(7:47:12 PM) Selrahc: It worked this time yeah?
(7:47:13 PM) pocketbeetle: Thanks, and congrats on the Palace I assume
(7:47:57 PM) Selrahc: Yeah, you'll see its effects on the demos, where I've finally overtaken you in a category :O
(7:48:03 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah mfg goods
(7:48:14 PM) pocketbeetle: You've been closing in for a while
(7:48:15 PM) Selrahc: Yup.
(7:48:41 PM) pocketbeetle: all downhill from now!
(7:48:47 PM) Selrahc: Got a few projects that should boost it even more by the end of the golden age.
(7:49:09 PM) Selrahc: Pfft. Don'tt think I'll ever even get close to you in GNP.

[FONT=&quot]
Bolded the line that interested me.
Throwing out a couple more wild Tower of Divination theories:

• Taking Smelting would allow him to build Forges.
  Only 1.7k b, bit of a waste, but a possibility.
  
• Researching Writing (400b) and Mathematics (1k b) would let him take Engineering.
  Engineering is still a relatively small tech (2.2k b) but would enable Selrahc to build two important world wonders: City of a Thousand Slums (increase city plot size to 3) and Guild of Hammers (free Forge in every city).
  

Will keep an eye out.

[/FONT]