[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[Jabah]

Because Hill Giants don't get defensive bonuses, that forested hill Moe is standing on does nothing and actually acts as negative defensive territory because it brings Sareln's Elf +10% forest modifier into play.
Combined with 5 str on attack and the recon unit bonus vs Beast units probably means he could beat Moe handily.

I didn't know Hill Giants were of 'beast' species.

When asking, I was more wondering if Selrahc would be able to send ice elementals desguised as 'warriors' around multiple borders and get away with it . (but if the nationality is showing, no chance)

[pocketbeetle]

When asking, I was more wondering if Selrahc would be able to send ice elementals desguised as 'warriors' around multiple borders and get away with it . (but if the nationality is showing, no chance)

An interesting thought, but yes, I'm pretty sure it would say "your Moe was defeated by an Illian Warrior".

Veez might be back? Most excellent!

Very good.
I enjoyed that and liked the various references (Rat pack, TMNT, Stainless Steel Rat).

Although I'm saddened to hear he's reaching semi-retirement already. I had intended to name the first Assassin after him.
Maybe one of his children, or should we drag him out of the retirement home?
Decisions decisions!

[pocketbeetle]

State of the Nation: T150

It’s been fifty turns since the T100 update here, what’s changed since then?

Well for starters Kwythellar has more than doubled in size, Caledor has tripled and the fourth megacity Kar Karond was founded. Military power has filled out nicely thanks to the CAs, while in the demographics the Kurios have continued to dominate, although I’m starting to lose some ground in the Crop Yield and Mfg Goods.
In the contested land, I’ve staked my claim to a good chunk of the resource-laden jungle by spamming settlements, who will now be converted to RoK and start running merchants. Wonderwise, I’ve doubled from one to two(!) wonders by adding the Form of the Titan, with TGL to follow soon, as well as national wonders like the NE and HE.

Let’s run through the cities:
(One good thing about playing as the Kuriotates, city updates don’t take long. )


City update:



Caledor:
Otherwise known as the ‘Jewel of the North’, this baby has an output that rivals other nations.
Pretty much all tile improvements have been completed around Caledor now, with that last riverside cottage finishing next turn and the plains forest still to be improved (I’ve been undecided whether to cottage or mill, for the moment lumbermilling will suffice).

Even better, Caledor has yet to reach its full potential, with another 3 cottages (villages) being worked by settlements and another +10% raw commerce to come soon from Dyes.

Future items this city will be building: Stonewardens, Pillar of Chains, Bazaar of Mammon, OO Temple, Guild of the Nine.




Kwythellar:
Another nice city, although as expected it’s starting to show its age now that tile improvements > coastal tiles (even Lighthouse/Heron throne powered ones).
Forests are being lumbermilled to emphasise hammers, but I’ve been throwing down cottages on the bare tiles because it seems a waste not to make the most of that Academy. I’m still waiting for a forest spread to the plains tile NW of the Oasis (what’s a guy gotta do to get one?).
The extra trade route comes from the Lighthouse (hammer cost increased to compensate) and this city is the second-most likely candidate for a Courthouse.

It’s worth noting that by building the Heron Throne, Form of the Titan and HE all in one city, I’ll have a pure pool of GC points, increasing at +4 per turn.
Not sure if I’ll use it yet, but I figured it was worth having and was the motivation behind building the Form of the Titan in Kwythellar rather than the capital.

Future items this city will be building: Centaur Archers, Centaur Archers, Adepts, Centaur Archers and some more Centaur Archers.




Avelorn:
The foodbowl of the Kuriotate nation, Avelorn has been the engine behind my settlement spam at the expense of its own growth.
Now freed of those restrictions and with Workers able to chain irrigate, the city is running at a surplus of 24 fpt and shows no sign of slowing.
Expect the rest of the BFC to be farmed asap.

Commerce will always be low, Avelorn is all about the food and the hammers.
That’s not a bad thing: it saves me having to build any economic buildings - I don’t even have a Tailor here yet.
I was worried about the production capacity of this city, but 26 hpt is turning out to be a solid number to finish off most essential infra buildings in 3-4 turns.
Next up after the Library is the National Epic (~4 turns) at which point I’ll resume running 3 priests to pop a GPro in 10 turns or so.

Future items this city will be building: NE, Settlers, Tower of Complacency, Health buildings, Palisade/Walls.




Karond Kar:
Secondary commerce centre with some nice production figures to boot, unfortunately KK is always going to be a little food poor.
The gl tile 3E will be farmed next turn, with the plains tile N and jungle tile S following suit shortly after. Hopefully then I’ll have enough of a food surplus to cottage the gl tile 1E of the floodplain.
The remaining riverside plains tiles will of course be cottaged.
I also will switch around the Sage Council and Courthouse next turn: a Courthouse is worth nearly 10 gpt factoring in inflation.

Future items this city will be building: Hunting Lodge, Palisade/Walls, Stonewardens, Centaur Archers, Academy.


[u]Stats & Demographics:[/u]

More palatable, although nowhere near enough CAs.
I wish I’d built a couple more Workers after agreeing to the Iskender/jungle chopping escapade, but nevermind.
Those thirteen Workers should be sufficient for the rest of the game now.

Still the ‘ouch’ screen, although replace -28 gpt from T100 with -137 gpt.
Inflation has more than doubled from 15% to 37%.

Still nothing to say about this.

Score:
I’m surprised that I’ve maintained my lead in score from the other players, I was expecting them to catch up thanks to owned tiles, but oh well.
Bob has overtaken Selrahc for second place, most likely due to Selrahc’s recent focus on expensive buildings.

GNP:
Still kicking butt here, the Illian jump is due to their GA from the Bone Palace.
One point to remember is that switching to Raiders hit me harder than it may appear: for the last 30 turns I’ve been slightly sandbagging my GNP graph by only going 100% research the turn before discovering a tech.
Effective Kurio GNP was a good 50 bpt higher in reality.

Mfg Goods:
Soon to be overtaken by Bob and already overtaken by Selrahc, remember the Illians have an effectively higher Mfg Goods than the graph implies thanks to Slavery. Not quite sure why Iskender has jumped recently, maybe as a knock-on effect of discovering Sanitation and improving his city pop.

Crop Yield:
Floodplain boy is now beating me handily here, although why Selrahc continues to lag is puzzling.
Think it’s because he’s focussing on hammers to get Illian Temples up (next couple of turns demonstrate this). Those would terraform the land around his cities, making most tiles a minimum of 2 fpt, so we may see a jump.

Power:
Bob and Iskender continue to arm themselves for some unknown reason (^^), Cull and Sareln remain unremarkable.
I'm guessing that most, if not all, of Selrahc’s power increase is due to population.
That pink line is due for another sharp spike in the near future.

Culture:
Nothing happening here, slight widening of the gap due to the combined effect of Temples plus high culture buildings like the Heron Throne, Academies, Dancing Bears etc.

Not a lot to say about the demographics: Approval rate and Life Expectancy continue to remain high due to the averaging effect of the settlements, with only the tree hugging Elves challenging me in the latter.
Three trade routes per city combined with a bunch of settlements means I’m picking up most of the trade routes with other civs.
Cull is getting the short end of the stick at -19 as he continues to lack Sailing to trade coastally with me.

I would be very interested to know what sort of commerce Selrahc is getting per trade route from my huge cities.
Anyone know a way to calculate it?

Food surpluses in the megacities are averaging ~15 fpt, which is why a little unhealth isn’t the end of the world (although my infra finger keeps twitching over the Smokehouse icon).
Happiness levels will continue to increase: Dyes (+2), Ivory and Sugar to come, Caledor and KK lack an OO Temple (2) also.


Enemy Territory:

I’m not going to cover all the players, we already know why Bob has the highest Crop Yield and that Selrahc has a lot of land still to settle:



We also know that Sareln has failed to capitalise on his escape and fifty turns later is still stagnating with only two cities.
Whether this has been because of settling restrictions placed on him by Bob or for other reasons, I don’t know, but he really shouldn’t have lost that Dyes site North of Nameless Tower to Selrahc.

Instead let’s deal with two of the players who are currently finding themselves running out of land, starting with everybody’s favourite taciturn Dwarf.



Cull:
Not good.
I look at that screenshot and I see indecision.

Firstly: Cull is in agristocracy, yet is spamming off-river cottages(?) around Halowell.
In part this is because he doesn’t have Construction to chain irrigate farms yet.
Maybe he’s just assigning ‘make-work’ to his Workers; in that case he’s got the balance of Workers: Cities (Settlers) wrong.
Military advisor says he has 13 Warriors and 10 Workers to four close packed cities.

Secondly: city placement.
We know the Khazad have a soft cap to city spam, namely an unhappiness penalty if treasury per city levels fall below certain levels.
I don’t claim to be an expert, but it seems to me there are two ways of approaching that problem:

• Either play the Khazad the way they’re ‘meant’ to be played, keeping treasury levels up at the expense of tech rate (in which case space your cities out).
  
• Break the rules and say screw the unhappiness penalty.
  It can only give a maximum of +2 unhappy per city, so spam cities ICS style and keep them small, allowing you to tech at full pace.
  

With a size 8 city and a slow tech rate, I have to assume Cull’s been storing some cash.
So why cramp your cities to such a degree? (Currency will reveal that Cull has 200+ gold next turn.)

I think Cull is now realising that he’s in trouble - it’s rather hard to miss the subtle hint of Bob travelling heaven knows how far (25 tiles?) to claim a Gems resource 7 tiles away from your capital - and is responding by trying to expand.
There’s a Dwarven Settler in that picture which will soon settle Cull’s fifth city and T151 will reveal a second settler for a sixth city soon; but it’s a case of too little, too late.
Cull still hasn’t used his worldspell either (%age chance for a tile -> hill, 25 free gold for each owned mine), despite his last three cities picking up almost no extra hills.
He should’ve used it fifty turns ago, I’m sorry to say.




Iskender:
The Hippus on the other hand are doing much better now.
I still don’t have total vision on their lands, but know enough to see their capital is not great. It lacks an early commerce source (poor placement? Coastal 2SW may have been better) and possibly lacks production, as Iskender has chosen to mine the local source of Pigs rather than pasturing it.
More importantly, the Hippus are now having trouble expanding.

Once again, Bob is squeezing his neighbour for space despite having a chunk of land in his backlines to settle, while the other evil culprit is me.
The jungle belt formed a natural barrier between us in the early game, but since those tiles are no hindrance to me, I’ve settlement spammed all along the central river.
Between the two of us, the Hippus are running out of land, and what little is left in the South is likely riddled with desert and tundra, given what Concepcion has seen.

Don’t misunderstand me: that’s not all Iskender’s fault.
I think Iskender has played out of his socks so far, and that’s demonstrated by his second place GNP (non-Illian GA) and competitive placing in the other demographics.
I do think his peace treaty with Bob was a mistake, from the details I know of it, he seems to have given too much, for too long.

But the reason why I’ve included a piece about the Hippus is because of where I think they should go in the future.
Iskender has three choices, none of them good.

1. Attack the Calabim.
   If he attacks after their peace treaty ends (T200 IIRC) he’s just going to run smack into Vampires and lose.
   If he attacks before their peace treaty ends, he’d get a slightly bad rep (personally I wouldn’t hold it against him) but the odds of success would be exponentially better.
   
2. Attack the Kuriotates.
   Good luck.
   
   1. Solo, he’s got no chance. War Elephants, matching mobility and my upcoming mobilisation means he’d just lose.
      
   2. If he brings in an ally such as Selrahc or Bob (Bob much more likely than Selrahc from what I can see) he has a chance of taking and holding my jungle settlements, such as Riedquat, Reorte and the soon to be settled c9. However I’m prepared to lose those, they’re my crumple zone, which ends at the twin city line of Diso and KK.
      Taking KK would be a much more difficult task, but if he managed it things would start looking a lot better for the Hippus.
      
   
   
3. Accept the enforced boundaries and focus inward.
   Still probably a losing proposition, but probably his best option at the moment, and the one I wanted to talk about.
   

50% of the Hippus border is coast.
If Iskender spams coastal cities all along that, with a minimum gap of two tiles, I guesstimate he could fit in at least 8 cities there.
Building the GLH (2) plus Lighthouses (1), researching Currency (1), Trade (1) and running the Foreign Trade civic (+1 trade routes, +1 extra for coastal cities) would mean each of those 8 cities would be receiving 8 trade routes, which at a minimum could be picking up 2c each from my settlements.
8 coastal cities x 8 trade routes x minimum 2c = 128 raw commerce from trade routes in those cities alone.

The hammer output required for this is not extortionate: Lighthouses cost 105h, GLH costs 400h, Foreign Trade is enabled by researching the Trade tech.
Throw in a couple of traderoute boosting buildings such as cheap Harbours (+50% c) for EXP Rhoanna, and Iskender will easily remain competitive in GNP at least.

Has he thought of this? Don’t know.
Should I tell him? Don’t know.
Should I stop him? For the moment…no.

I simply can’t afford to waste 400h (= 840h worth of military units/ ~11 CAs) building a wonder of little personal value just to deny the currently fourth placed player.
I’m building TGLib because I think it has excellent denial value vs the two main contenders (particularly Selrahc, he virtually has a Sage Council in every city) and because at 234h (plus marble doubler), it’s a quarter of the hammer cost.
So if Iskender wants the GLH, it’s his for the taking…


There is one last option I haven’t fully covered, which is if Iskender attacks the Calabim, but brings in an ally.
Problem is, he still has the same problems. After T200 he’s likely to run into Vampires, before T200 he’s still breaking an agreement.

Overall, it’s a difficult situation, but I will be cheering him on if he can find a way out of it (so long as it doesn’t involve option 2!).


Techs:

I’ve been meaning to do this for a while, so updated as of T151, there’s a list of everyone’s techs here, courtesy of Googledocs.
(Editor’s disclaimer: it wouldn’t surprise me if it contains one or two minor errors.)

There’s a rather long screenshot from the middle of the tech tree below if it helps.

…or this if you prefer.

As you can see, Iskender is doing very well, Sareln unfortunately is stagnating, and the Kuriotates are doing…okay.
Question is, will that tech lead be enough to keep me competitive lategame?


Diplo:

Not too much to say here.
I’ve kept my head down despite some aggressive settling, and consequently I’m a little out of touch with how everyone views the Kuriotates.

Iskender almost certainly doesn’t love me thanks to being pushed around twice regarding the Gems settling and the Silk deal. I think that my recent Raiders switch, combined with leading power rating and lack of any NAP agreements between us means I’m now competing in his eyes with Bob for the title of neighbourhood bully. Ordinarily, I'd be confident that the Hippus would prefer a civ that pushes them around a bit over a civ that has declared war on them in the past, but the long Hippus-Calabim peace treaty may sway things in the other direction in the short term.
It also worries me how quick Iskender was to make a deal regarding the Calabim chopping jungle for him, hence my scrabbling around trying to find ways to make him happier (/healthier).

Selrahc and I continue to get along peacefully.
His capital is still defended by only a single Warrior, and militarily our positions seem to have switched from him choosing not to kill me early game to me choosing not to kill him midgame (or if not ‘killing’ at least not doing some game-ending damage).
I worry about his capabilities lategame, as well as the number of deals we have in place in which he ‘owes’ me something later whereas I’m paying upfront.
But for now, he’s not a threat to me, and we do seem to be getting along well.

Bob either hates me or is neutral, depending on whether he ‘knows’ or not.
Distance is becoming less of a factor with the upcoming c9 Banana settlement.

Sareln has been quiet, and is probably going to be pissed about c9 (~6 tiles W of Nameless Tower), but should still be more pissed at Selrahc for the early game nobbling and the Dye claiming. Given this, it was strange to see the Svartalfar Hunter roaming freely through Illian lands via their OB…


Overall:

I meant to type this thirty turns ago, but never got around to it.
I think the game’s pretty finely balanced at the moment.

Ordinarily, a civ with the lead I had in demographics on T120 (or even earlier) would have been summarily declared the winner or dogpiled, because left alone that civ would have continued to snowball.
The Kuriotates city limit has prevented that from happening, and has led to the situation where the current tech leader has little to gain from attacking outwards.
The game is split between the Illians, Calabim and Kuriotates, with the Hippus being the swing vote.

If I were to attack the Illians, I would seriously hurt them, maybe even remove them, but gain nothing for myself beyond maybe the resources of Corn, Cotton, Dyes and some mana nodes.
The Calabim would in contrast, gain a huge amount.
Either in land by settling Northwards (can’t defend all those settlements, would have to raze some) or by seizing the opportunity to attack the Kuriotates, alone or jointly with the Hippus (if I were Iskender I’d for certain join in).
End result: either a loss or an extremely strong, Vampire-equipped Calabim.

If I were to attack the Calabim, I would seriously hurt them and delay Vampires, but again gain nothing. I wouldn’t even be able to hold any settlements.
In the best case scenario, in which both the Illians and Hippus sit on the sidelines and don’t interfere, such an action would free up Iskender to expand Eastwards, and Selrahc would probably get a chunk of land also.
End result: stronger Hippus and Illians. Higher risk of failure than attacking the Illians (Bronze weapon Morois), but lower downside if successful.

As for the Hippus, why would I attack them?
They’re giving me everything I want (Gems, Wines), the only reason I would consider attacking them is if they were preventing me from reaching an important strategic resource (Iron, Mithril) or if it looked like they were becoming a Calabim vassal.
And speaking of vassals, don’t forget that Sareln will be supporting the Calabim in all of the above scenarios.


So it’s a three way stand-off, with the one who manages to avoid conflict more likely to be the eventual winner.
And, so long as Bob doesn’t attack Selrahc in the next fifty turns, I’m going to be the mug that initiates.
Hooray!

Note to self:
Give concession to Selrahc for not building the Deepening. (Stonewarden?)
Consider selling Iskender a non-compete on the GLH? (Free in recognition of Guild of the Nine?)

[Mardoc]

Very impressive summary; thanks especially for the update on Cull! That's more info than I've seen on him in a while.

I have to agree with your assessment; it's between you, Selrahc, and Bob. You all have dangerous units, good economies (especially production), and decent military techs (I think).

Glad to hear you're planning to tip the balance; hope you can finagle some way to end up on top. Regardless of how it turns out, though, you'll have us lurkers on the edge of our seats. And, of course, there's always the chance that you three will knock each other down enough for Iskender to pull into the lead.

[The Reverend Doctor]

Echoing the thanks for the grand update.

Those sprung (springed!?) um... Oases that you cast Spring on are pretty good tiles, no?

Have you actually upgraded your elephants to the war elephant version yet? Is there a tech that unlocks that because I think I've captured elephants and not had that option.

[fluffyflyingpig]

What are your plans for great people? What exactly can they do in FFH?

And how do you actually plan on winning from here?

[Rowain]

Thanks for your very informative and interesting update.

According to it you don't plan any wars in the near future so: Why did you adopt Raiders in the Trait-switch?

[Brian Shanahan]

According to it you don't plan any wars in the near future so: Why did you adopt Raiders in the Trait-switch?

Not being PB I cannot guarantee accuracy, but I believe it stems from a mix of insurance (in event of DoW raider CAs can pretty heavily stymie logistics in enemy territory) and opportunism (if Bob of Selrahc gett bogged down in war against a 3rd party {preferrably each other} raider CAs can raze cities to their hearts' content).

[Xenoborg]

Being raiders lets him build units now with commando, and they will have it for the rest of their lives no matter what trait he swaps to later.

[pocketbeetle]

Very impressive summary; thanks especially for the update on Cull! That's more info than I've seen on him in a while.

I have to agree with your assessment; it's between you, Selrahc, and Bob. You all have dangerous units, good economies (especially production), and decent military techs (I think).

Glad to hear you're planning to tip the balance; hope you can finagle some way to end up on top. Regardless of how it turns out, though, you'll have us lurkers on the edge of our seats. And, of course, there's always the chance that you three will knock each other down enough for Iskender to pull into the lead.

Agree with all of this post!

...except that last bit.

Echoing the thanks for the grand update.

Those sprung (springed!?) um... Oases that you cast Spring on are pretty good tiles, no?

I had that problem too.
Those oases that I have cast Spring on are definitely very nice.
As you can see at Avelorn, they’re superior to an improved plains Sheep and looked even better when I was FIN.

Speaking of Sheep, the gl one at Caledor is making me think: it’s 5f/1c improved. Cottaged, it would be 3f/1c.
Upon upgrading to an Enclave (long time admittedly) that tile would yield 4f/7c, which I consider to be a vast improvement to 5f/1c.
Something to think about, but I've only got two Sheepie resources (I’m wondering if I can trade one to Iskender, trade screen says he doesn't have it) means that probably won’t happen.

Have you actually upgraded your elephants to the war elephant version yet? Is there a tech that unlocks that because I think I've captured elephants and not had that option.

I haven't no.
The tech required is HBR (plus I think a Stable building for other civs?) and it costs 123g.
I'm currently researching economic techs in Maths and Taxation which the sooner I get, the sooner I profit, so there's no reason to delay by upgrading military units.

What are your plans for great people? What exactly can they do in FFH?

And how do you actually plan on winning from here?

Great People are pretty much the same as in normal Civ4, except for the GG/ GC change.
My next GP will be a GPro from Avelorn, and probably the same again after that.
Whether I use the upcoming GPro to found the AV or RoK shrine is still up for debate, but I'm leaning towards the AV shrine.

As for that last question, erm, ask me an easier one.

Thanks for your very informative and interesting update.

According to it you don't plan any wars in the near future so: Why did you adopt Raiders in the Trait-switch?

Not being PB I cannot guarantee accuracy, but I believe it stems from a mix of insurance (in event of DoW raider CAs can pretty heavily stymie logistics in enemy territory) and opportunism (if Bob of Selrahc gett bogged down in war against a 3rd party {preferrably each other} raider CAs can raze cities to their hearts' content).

Being raiders lets him build units now with commando, and they will have it for the rest of their lives no matter what trait he swaps to later.

Hi Rowain. =)
Xenoborg and Brian pretty much covered all the bases (thanks!) - I want a Raider fleet for the options they provide.
Obviously I can't just whip an army out in five turns, I'm limited in that area.