League of Legends General Discussion Thread

[Gustaran]

The backdoor I was talking about was with Twisted Fate, so it doesn't say anything about Sivir specifically. I was just questioning the notion that 'no good team will ever let you backdoor'.

Of course it's possible to backdoor, but Pandajuice wrote

She can break off from the poking phase before a team fight, get to a tower, and destroy it while the enemy team is distracted in the team fight that is going on elsewhere thinking they are winning because they are 4v5. Once she does this a few times...

I am sorry but if a Sivir destroys "a few towers because the other team is distracted in a 4v5 teamfight" something is clearly wrong.

The willingness of people to engage in unfavourable 4v5 or even 5v5 team fights outside their tower in this game is rather odd, until late game where the damage and spatial control of a single tower becomes less relevant I think it's correct strategy to have 4 defend tower and 1 push/farm another lane if the other team decides to group all 5 in mid.

As you said that depends on the game stage and we should not forget that Sivir can't take down towers at ease with level 5.
I am just saying that it is risky to enter a 4v5 late game (which is when Sivir actually shines) and it can easily cost you the game, unless your team is farmed up/has Baron buff, better composition, etc.

[Roland]

I think Sivir is a fun and underrated champ and again, it seems like she is central to that annoying "some champs are simply better than others" stance a lot of players have. While that may be true with all else being equal, I think Sivir brings something unique to a team that the enemy team now has to account for that a lot of narrow minded players simply seem to miss.

Given the recent buffs she's had in the last few patches, I would intend to agree that she is mildly underrated, but only mildly. The buffs did not address the obvious weaknesses in her overall abilities, but they did make what abilities she does have that much stronger. To say that she is central to people's opinions about what makes a viable Champion and what doesn't is inaccurate, IMHO. She's convenient for illustrating a point, on both sides, but she is herself not central to the argument.

What I find annoying, or perhaps just naive (which, to me, can be annoying, especially in the face of hard facts and logic) is the idea that it's offensive to conceive of certain Champions being stronger than others. That stance is based on cold, hard fact - not an emotional attachment to a character which you seem to be exhibiting. I have illustrated precisely why people hold Sivir in low regard relative the other Champions that are out there. If you choose to disregard empirical evidence, that's your choice. If you're incapable of understanding that empirical evidence, due to lack of experience, that is something that (theoretically) will change as you gain a greater understanding of the game.

Bringing emotion into a logical discourse is always unwise. Perhaps I'm misreading your intent, and if so you can disregard anything that pertains to that idea, but your arguments smack to me of emotional response to an idea you find offensive without considering them on their factual merits.

Sivir is best played as a tower downing, backdoor disruptive force that the enemy team must account for and whenever your team disrupts the typical flow that another team is used to, they weaken. It's what having Twitch or Shaco does if played well - they force teams to adapt and adopt a different (hopefully weaker) playstyle than the norm which is pretty valuable imo.
If someone tries to play her as simply an AD carry, she isn't reaching her full potential, and yes, there are better champs for that role. But in my opinion, there is no better champ for backdooring than Sivir.

Again, you're accrediting the abilities of the *player* with the abilities of the *Champion*. Can Sivir back door fairly well? Yes. Why? Her ability to dish out sizable damage, particularly at range. However, that is the case with ALL ranged carries - including Teemo. That does not make all ranged carries equal. It's the equivalent of saying a truck is great for racing because it has a big engine, and thus can go really fast. It disregards a whole slew of other factors that come into play given the environment it's in.

Do Champions like Twitch and Shaco force the enemy team to adapt a slightly different strategy because of their presence? Yes. What relevance does that have to do with Sivir, though? None. They force a team to adapt to their presence based upon on the rare mechanical qualities they bring - stealth. This forces the team to be extra cautious when moving about, especially while alone, and to take extra measures to be sure to have stealth-removing items (wards, Oracle's, etc.) Sivir brings no such game-changing element that isn't brought on by ANY ranged DPS carry. Moreover, there are ranged carries that can perform the very act you're attributing to Sivir as a quality worthy of her inclusion, *while at the same time bringing other game-changing elements*. Ashe can dish out massive damage in short order to towers. She has a wide-AoE, high-damage attack ability for clearing minion waves at the tower (versus Ricochet), while also doubling as a kiting tool (slow). She has a stun (useful for both offensive and defensive purposes, and absolutely game changing in its potential). She has a scouting ability (which allows her to see trouble before it flanks her and cuts her off, barring abilities that circumvent this, like Teleport, or Twisted Fate's Ult). Because of the *package deal* that makes up Ashe the champion, she is a better overall pick than Sivir. Does that mean Sivir sucks? No. It just means she's a better competitive pick. Does it suck to play the same champs all the time? Absolutely, it can, but that is (again) neither here nor there. That is a matter of perspective, of opinion, which has no bearing upon how a Champion stacks up to another.

She can break off from the poking phase before a team fight, get to a tower, and destroy it while the enemy team is distracted in the team fight that is going on elsewhere thinking they are winning because they are 4v5. Once she does this a few times, the opposing team now has to account for her and send one or two covers to make sure lanes don't get too pushed and that Sivir is turned away. Meanwhile the rest of your team is now pushing elsewhere with at least equal numbers which forces the enemy team to have to quickly decide to deal with Sivir and keep her back, or deal with the other 4 champs pushing top. Whatever they decide is the wrong answer and keeping them confused and spread out around the map can only lead to good things.

Again, this ability is not unique to Sivir. See all my comments above. As for "distracting the team", you are once again confusing the elements of the player's actions with the abilities of a Champion. Were you to say, for example, Twisted Fate makes a great backdooring champion due to his inherent mobility and scouting (his Ult), I would agree with you, but then you'd just be proving my point about why Sivir is not ranked high in terms of competitive picks. *Her abilities do not grant her any significantly game-changing advantages.*

As for your bold statement that "whatever they choose is the wrong answer", I can honestly say that is a naive statement. There are counters to Sivir, they are many, and a proper Champion setup can RUIN her ability to wreck towers while at the same time not drastically inhibiting the other team. This, again, gets back to each individual Champion's abilities, as well as overall team composition - two things that go hand-in-hand.

Disruption is a very underrated tactic in LoL that not many people talk about but it does win games when utilized properly. It's also a lot more fun than the current metagame that is based on whichever FOTM supercarry can get fed first and begin dominating.

You are absolutely right. I could not agree more. However, that has nothing to do with Sivir, for all the reasons I've illustrated numerous times. Your comment about FotM super-carries is also naive. I'm beginning to question whether or not you've even engaged in high-level play, but please don't take that as an attack - merely a curiosity. Classic example - Miss Fortune. She was a FotM super carry, precisely because she was overpowered when she came out. She has been scaled back significantly since then... and yet she is still a stronger pick than Sivir. Why is that? If the answer eludes you, try to take just a moment to consider the viewpoint some of us are trying to make - and disregard your bias about that particular viewpoint being "annoying" to you. Otherwise, we're not having a discourse about the merits of Champions - we're having a playground-level discourse of "My dad can beat up your dad." I have no desire to engage in such activities, and I strongly believe you do not, either.

While that sounds great in theory this will hardy work in higher level play.

1. Pulling a champ out of a 5v5 teamfight can easily lead to disaster.
Great if Sivir gets an outside tower, while 4 champions die mid and lose the tower there.

Exactly. IF you are going to force your team to fight 4v5 while you go off to wreak havoc elsewhere, no matter what or where that havoc might be, you'd best have a few things:
1) Better team composition. If your team make-up is not stronger than theirs, you'll get steamrolled. Plain and simple.
2) Escapability. If you can't get back to your team, or at least back to safety, with relative ease you've just handed a HUGE advantage over to the other team - all in the name of trying to create an "advantage" for your own team.

Sivir plays into the first one, but only to a certain extent - notice the word team in that statement. Sivir herself is entirely viable under the right circumstances (I am not arguing otherwise) - just that those circumstances are more narrow than for other (not *all) champs. Sivir does not inherently possess any quality that truly fulfills the second one. Yes, her dodge is a nice passive, but it won't save you from spells, stuns, slows, taunts, etc. There are a hundred ways to lock her down that all bypass her passive. Rammus alone could shut down her towerdiving, and he brings enough to the table on his own to be worthwhile in a competitive environment. As for using her Ult to escape? If you truly believe that to be a viable course of action instead of a last-ditch effort to recover from a drastic error (and that effort is itself a drastic error) then we are not talking about the same environment - *competitive play*.

2. No decent team let's you backdoor several towers for free. Most likely Sivir gets ambushed and taken out while strolling off solo since she has no good escape tools.

It's not that simple. Games are very fluid, and things can pull a complete 180 in the blink of an eye. While a team allowing significant towers to fall without properly responding is a poor show of skill, it's also influenced by a dozen other factors. It's not worth losing 2 or more people just to save a tower, and outside the early to mid game, it's usually not worth even losing one. Team composition plays a pivotal role in how well either team can backdoor and/or respond to such acts.

As for the likelihood of Sivir getting ambushed on her way to backdoor... yes, with proper ward coverage they should see her a mile away. In a perfect environment this would be so. Now consider that in a perfect environment, Sivir would be backdooring when the entire rest of the team is preoccupied, and furthermore when they don't have a quick and viable way of countering her. The sword cuts both ways.

3. There are better champs available for backdooring. If you badly want to backdoor I would suggest using champs like Twisted Fate or Pantheon who at least have the ability to rejoin the team instantly with their ult if needed.

Agreed. While I don't find Pantheon to be the strongest competitive pick either (and I don't hold the ability to backdoor as being top-tier in terms of competitive picks), Twisted Fate is a perfect example of what makes some champs better than others. He has ranged damage, AoE damage, a stun, a map-wide scouting ability, and the ability to teleport anywhere on the map he can see.

First off, obviously what I said was a hyperbolic joke, in reference to several people in this thread who have written her off almost entirely, some based merely on the fact that she isn't used. My only goal was to point out that Sivir WAS used in a very competitive tournament, to good effect - from what I hear (I have no real way to confirm). There was really no reasoning in my post. I heard Sivir was used well in high-pressure games, and I think she deserves to be considered on her own merits. I should add that, from what I heard, she was indeed able to farm extensively, and wound up with a couple bloodthirsters and a last whisper or something.

Obviously. We both were operating under that understanding. Sorry for not making that clear in my post. As for writing her off entirely, I agree with you - she's not a champ that should be written off completely. She is perfectly viable, on her own and within the composition of a team, even within a competitive environment. I do not think she's the best, and when I build a team I'm reluctant to accept her over another carry (especially in Normal games, which operate under blind pick), but that doesn't mean I'll write the player or that game off if someone wants to play her that badly. I'm not out to rain on anyone's parade, merely to educate. Nothing more, nothing less. If you insist on playing Sivir 100% of the time because she just rocks your socks off, I won't argue - just afford me the same courtesy if I don't want to go into a Ranked game with her on my team.

As for your statement that there was "no real reasoning" to your post, you contradict yourself with this very post. The point was to illustrate to those who take a narrow-minded view that Sivir is not viable that she *is*. My posts are designed to illustrate to narrow-minded people that *all* champs are not as viable as all *other* champs. We're on the same page here, and your input was well-thought out and appreciated (at least by me).

Again, my points were simply that 1.She was used competitively, 2.What is competitive in the first place is heavily subject to change as the metagame changes and people think of new ways to leverage champions, and come up with strategies where she is competitive.

Agree, and agree.

Given the competitive environment she was used in, this doesn't make sense, when you later say that some champions are simply worse than others. And no, champions don't win games by themselves, and you could say that about any champion. As I've said before in this thread, no champion should be considered in a vacuum. That section was pretty needless.

I don't feel that one contradicts the other, but that really doesn't matter in this. We're not arguing against each other's viewpoints. As for that section being needless, it wasn't - it just wasn't directed at you, specifically. Sorry for making it appear that way. That was completely my fault.

@Gustaran: Why were the 4 champs fighting mid to begin with? They could easily defend a tower 4v5, gaining an advantage from pushing another lane (gold+exp) at the same time. Just as an example.

. . .

I won't comment too much on you guys' analysis of game mechanics or Sivir's abilities because frankly I'm not qualified to - but I'll say that I've found her shield to be great for laning, and her boomerang is great poke if you aim it well.

In late game, unless your team composition and player ability allows you to go 4v5 against the enemy team (regardless of tower support), you simply shouldn't do it. Period. By the time you're all 18, Towers hold no threat anymore except to the careless. By the time you're 12, their power is already diminished, if the game has been going in your favor, or at least not in their favor.

What will happen, most times, is the 4-man team, if it chooses to defend that tower, will get systematically steamrolled by the 5-man team, given otherwise equal footing. Try playing a game 4v5 throughout - the stakes only get higher the longer the game goes on.

The willingness of people to engage in unfavourable 4v5 or even 5v5 team fights outside their tower in this game is rather odd, until late game where the damage and spatial control of a single tower becomes less relevant I think it's correct strategy to have 4 defend tower and 1 push/farm another lane if the other team decides to group all 5 in mid.

It's not odd when you see what can happen. Putting your team at a deliberate disadvantage better carry with it a significant advantage somewhere else to compensate - otherwise you just gave away victory. This is even more pronounced mid- to late-game.

Also, and once again, the only time you want to even attempt to 4v5, Tower or no, is when your team composition and Champion / player strengths outweigh the other team's. If you're backed up to your tower 5v5, you almost NEVER - NEVER EVER EVER - want to bring that down to a 4v5, because the other team will eat you alive, and have all the time in the world to finish off the straggler. In high-level play, this is EXACTLY what can turn an otherwise stalemate into an instant win for the other team. I've seen it far too many times.

The bottom line is that I don't hate Sivir, and I don't hate anyone who plays her. She's a fine Champion, but there are logical reasons to why many people feel she is not the strongest pick in a competitive environment, and they are based upon facts, not fancy. Anyone who feels Sivir completely sucks is as narrow-minded and biased as someone who feels all Champions are created equal. If that offends anyone... well, so it goes. I'm not here to offend nor pander to anyone, merely to discuss the game, and educate others on it within my own capabilities. Anyone who doesn't wish to partake in such with me are free to ignore me.

[uberfish]

Well if you're attacking say, Rammus and Anivia at their tower 5v4 at level 12 in an even match you're most likely going to lose; you're certainly going to lose badly if the 5th member of their team teleports in once you're committed to the fight.

[Pandajuice]

I'm not going to get into an arguement of condescention Roland because yes, while you are marginally more experienced at LoL than I am, that doesn't necessarily mean your beliefs are facts or even based on fact. Your beliefs are based on other higher level/ELO players' beliefs. You all think Morgana is better than Lux simply because of Black Shield, and I disagree. It's all opinion based on apples and oranges, and the currently accepted metagame.

I have no emotional attachment to Sivir and in fact have only played her a few times. But what I recognize in that champion is that because of her ult and ability to clear minion waves in a blink of an eye, she can backdoor and demolish towers sooner and faster than other champs. While that may not be a game-breaking ability, it is one the other team MUST account for, which was my entire point above. It was perfectly illustrated in the WCG finals whether you want to take that at face value as I do or not. The US team refused to account for her, believing Sivir to be underpowered and easily ignored as most people do and lost not one game because of her unique abilities, but multiple games. It wasn't until game 4 that they finally threw up their hands and countered her the only way they knew how; by simply banning the champ altogether. It speaks volumes to me.

Whether other teams choose to counter Sivir via champ selection, or find a way to do it in game, the fact remains that they must counter Sivir at some point just as they counter Twitch. That was my analogy. If Sivir can destroy an undefended turret in under 10 seconds at level 6, that simply must be accounted for as it isn't something every AD carry can do. Ok, a Teemo at level 18 at 35 minutes can destroy towers quickly too, but Sivir is the only one who can do it at level 6 which, when played correctly, can give a team a massive early advantage.

I think we're saying the same thing: that Sivir is viable and can be devastating with the right team behind her and if the enemy team refuses, or doesn't know how, to counter her. But I will always resist the attitude some players have that Morgana is ALWAYS better than Lux and that MF is 100% of the time a better pick than Sivir. Maybe I am naive, but LoL seems far deeper to me than simply weighing/comparing abilities and making judgement based only on that.

[Cull]

Yes, the game is influenced by more factors than pure abilities. In Ranked/Draft mode, its about picking and counterpicking. For example: Enemy team has first pick, pick Amumu. You can pick Janna with Cleanse, counters perfectly. Enemy picks Yi, get Exhaust. Enemy team pick TF, get at least a teleport, or a champion that can counter TF(Pant for example). In a set match, after being stomped by X champion 2 or so times in games, simply ban or counterpick them. And so on. Then, you have to decide on a team comp. Your team comp needs to balance out ability to lane, harass, poke, teamfight, initiate, speed of jungle, ability to stop ganks/ganking ability, kiting, ability to counter the enemy team's lane, harass, etc. and so on. In general, however, abilities do make up what makes a character, which makes a team.

Quick Note:

Morgana is ALWAYS better than Lux

Honestly, this is true, IMO. Morgana's Black Shield on any carry is just too strong. Not 100% sure of this, but it even blocks red buff slow. Combined with Morgana's far better teamfighting ulti, a one target snare(in this case Lux might be better than Morgana IMO), and a super farming tool, she's just better right now in the metagame in general. If the game switches to kiting, ganking, and the like from the large teamfighting we see right now, Lux probably will be better.

Morgana:
AoE ulti that slow+stuns.
One of the best, if not the best shield in the game.
Single target snare.
Farming/pushing/counterpushing tool

Lux:
Line ulti simliar to Ashe arrow but pure damage, no stun/slow(I think)
Decent shield, similar to Janna's, but blocks more damage(I think)
Double target snare.
Slow/AoE/Sight thingy that works for farming/pushing/counterpushing.

Honestly, Lux just needs better AP ratios(how much AP you have: how much they help your abilities). Again, if the game switches away from the teamfighting metagame, Lux will probably be more valued IMO.

Just my 2 cents. My experience is very limited, only having played Draft Mode in practice games versus players of all different levels, and, honestly, I'm not that great a player. So, yeah.

[Dantski]

Like everyone else in this thread I am not a top player, but I'm surprised at how people perceive Lux. A bind (multiple if lucky), a skillshot shield (can actually shield all members of the team if everyone coordinates via chat) which is probably equal or very close to Morgana's in usefulness after the recent nerf. Lux's AOE is far more versatile than Morg's not being able to kill creeps with it in one shot isn't that big a deal.

Her ult is what lets her down, Morgana's ult is one of the best in the game, Lux's just fires a lazer. If it also applied an effect like blinding on hit, it would be pretty good, the problem with it at the moment is that its a pure damage dealing spell and Lux isn't designed to fill that role in the team. It's my personal opinion that Riot tries a little too hard to make champions playable in multiple ways, if Lux's ultimate was somewhat like Taric's but with a greater effect on the team than herself she'd be pretty damn good.

As for the Sivir discussion, she farms great and is probably the best pusher in the game. She is NOT a backdoor champ, without creeps she's no more effective than dozens of other champs. She also has no easy escape thus totally relying on good use of her shield to avoid getting killed. Don't get me wrong, she's a fun champ to play, but I'd rather have Ashe with her stun and slows than Sivir.

[Roland]

I'm not going to get into an arguement of condescention Roland because yes, while you are marginally more experienced at LoL than I am, that doesn't necessarily mean your beliefs are facts or even based on fact. Your beliefs are based on other higher level/ELO players' beliefs. You all think Morgana is better than Lux simply because of Black Shield, and I disagree. It's all opinion based on apples and oranges, and the currently accepted metagame..

I'm not here to argue any more than you are, no matter the circumstances. As for what my beliefs are based upon, how are you to know? You have greater insight into my own mind than I do myself? My beliefs upon Sivir are based upon an understanding of the game gleaned from numerous games, across numerous characters, and watching many others play. I don't take anyone's opinions as fact without doing my own research. I'm not so easily swayed.

Once again, you reach to put words into my mouth. When have I ever said Morgana is better than Lux, or even why I would think so? If I were to give Morgana the edge in anything over Lux, it would be because she has massively more health, and she has innate spell vamp. Those two abilities, on their own, set her apart from other casters and make her a strong choice. Combined, they completely complement each other. However, I haven't played nor seen enough of either to form an opinion, so please don't condescend to know my beliefs on anything other than what I've clearly stated.

I have no emotional attachment to Sivir and in fact have only played her a few times. But what I recognize in that champion is that because of her ult and ability to clear minion waves in a blink of an eye, she can backdoor and demolish towers sooner and faster than other champs. While that may not be a game-breaking ability, it is one the other team MUST account for, which was my entire point above. It was perfectly illustrated in the WCG finals whether you want to take that at face value as I do or not. The US team refused to account for her, believing Sivir to be underpowered and easily ignored as most people do and lost not one game because of her unique abilities, but multiple games. It wasn't until game 4 that they finally threw up their hands and countered her the only way they knew how; by simply banning the champ altogether. It speaks volumes to me.

I've never argued as to her ability to clear minion waves, with or without her Ult (although I should hope can both agree that using it for such is a complete waste). She can destroy towers very quickly, too, better than some champs. I've never said otherwise. I do recognize her ability to do both those things, but they are hardly unique to her. As for backdooring being a viable tactic that forces the enemy team to account for it, when used properly it can be absolutely devastating. That's one reason why I like Shen - the ability to push a lane (albeit slowly) while the rest of the team pushes elsewhere. What allows him to do that is not his ability to clear minion waves instantly, nor his ability to down towers in the blink of an eye, but rather than he can do both, solo, while being able to escape with relative ease.

I won't speak much on the matter of the WCG games. I will agree, from the accounts I've read, that CLG did not count on her being in the game, and thus were poor at counter-picking her, but by their own account they held the early advantage several times, and simply let it slip through their fingers. Their losses cannot be contributed solely to Sivir - to do so is to negate the entirety of their team and the game as it played out. While she was a contributing factor, maybe even a major one, she wasn't the sole deciding factor. Also, as has been stated, allowing a team to backdoor you is a sign of the control of the game swinging away from you and into the hands of the other team - regardless of who you send to do it. I've seen Sivir backdoor like a beast, so I won't argue that she's not fully capable of it, but with proper map awareness and the right position / Summoner abilities, it's easily counterable. Of course, the best time to backdoor is when the enemy team is not in a favorable position to respond properly, but that's beside the point.

Also, if you read CLG's account, it wasn't *just* Sivir. It was stronger team composition. They had dual supports and dual ranged carries, as well as strong defense. IIRC, they had Taric + Janna, Sivir, and I forget who else, but the combination of all those characters proved deadly, especially when they didn't force the early game and let it slide too far into the late game. Sivir is easily denied and countered in-lane with the proper matchup. They failed to pick the right champs, push an early advantage, and it cost them.

Perhaps you have a greater understanding of what went on those games, but from what *I've* read, Sivir was only a part of the overall picture that cost them those games. I might add in the end CLG triumphed, regardless of whether they banned Sivir. I agree that doing so helped, but I cannot accept the idea it was the *only* option. Also bear in mind Sivir has been buff at least twice in the last 3 patches. Before that, she was not as strong, and thus not as viable.

Whether other teams choose to counter Sivir via champ selection, or find a way to do it in game, the fact remains that they must counter Sivir at some point just as they counter Twitch. That was my analogy. If Sivir can destroy an undefended turret in under 10 seconds at level 6, that simply must be accounted for as it isn't something every AD carry can do. Ok, a Teemo at level 18 at 35 minutes can destroy towers quickly too, but Sivir is the only one who can do it at level 6 which, when played correctly, can give a team a massive early advantage.

If ANYONE lets Sivir down a tower solo at level 6 they have seriously screwed up. Sivir cannot solo a tower at 6 without minion support, and the tower would have to be completely undefended. Even then, she would have to be farmed up severely, which would be indicative of a failure to counter her at all. Further failing to counter her tower push just shows how far that team has fallen, and in *no way* reflects on Sivir's strengths. I would call into question greatly the very idea that Sivir can solo a tower at level 6, let alone in under 10 seconds, but since I have not played her recently I shall not argue, merely state my skepticism.

I think we're saying the same thing: that Sivir is viable and can be devastating with the right team behind her and if the enemy team refuses, or doesn't know how, to counter her. But I will always resist the attitude some players have that Morgana is ALWAYS better than Lux and that MF is 100% of the time a better pick than Sivir. Maybe I am naive, but LoL seems far deeper to me than simply weighing/comparing abilities and making judgement based only on that.

You are right. We both agree Sivir is viable (although much of that has come from buffs in recent patches - which, IMHO, were needed). We both agree, I hope, that failing to counter *any* Champion is devastating. However, I'm still not in favor of Sivir over Ashe as a general rule. There is a time and place for Sivir, but she's not as useful overall as some other ranged carries.

Getting back to Morgana versus Lux, as I've said I have limited experience with either. However, in my experience Morgana *is* a stronger champ. Lux does have a root that can hit 2 targets instead of just one - that much is true. However, that's only one advantage. Morgana's does better damage, and lasts a full second longer. Lux's AoE does paltry damage, in my experience, especially compared to Morgana's. The slow effect is nice, but it seems to be rather short in its duration. Morgana's also lowers enemy magic resist - not to be ignored. Morgana's shield trumps Lux's easily, in my book. Lux's just doesn't last very long, and doesn't do enough, despite the fact that it can cover the whole team. It's a very weak damage absorb - equal at level 5 to Shen's Feint at level 3. It's not bad, but it's nowhere near as strong. Morgana's damage absorb, while only Magic Damage, is twice as strong. Furthermore, it prevents negative effects - like Stun, Taunt, etc. It also scales over 166% better! All this combines to make for a very powerful, long-lasting spell - worlds beyond what Lux can provide. Finally, Morgana's Ult easily beats Lux's. Lux's Ult, while on a low cooldown and with incredible range (plus the ability to trigger her passive), simply doesn't do that much damage in comparison. Morgana has to stay close to her target(s) in order to get the full potential out of it, this is true, and her initial damage is less. However, it has a built in slow, which makes it easier for her to stay in range. Also, it affects multiple targets in a radius, not just a straight line - a better AoE in many situations. Besides, she has way more health! She's not nearly as fragile as Lux, and thus can afford to be in the thick of things far better. When her Ult triggers its second effect, everyone is damaged again and stunned - in an AoE! A stun is an incredibly powerful tool. It virtually removes an enemy from combat - and this is precisely why I prefer Ashe over most other ranged carries. A stun is one of the most powerful mechanics in the game. It does not make every champ that can stun an automatic pick, but it's amazing how devastating chained stuns can be to an entire team - especially AoE. Combine Kennen, Annie, and Amumu on a single team, and watch them tear it to bits (if played properly). I've seen it done - it's jaw-dropping, and demoralizing.

Some Champs simply aren't worth picking, IMO (Urgot comes to mind). Others are almost always worth picking (Ashe? ). However, although I would say Miss Fortune is always worth picking over, say, Teemo, I don't think I could say that about her versus Sivir. It again comes down to a variety of factors - namely team composition. You are right that LoL is far deeper, but you cannot begin to understand *why* until you accept that some Champions are simply *better* than others - and why that is so. Champions are the sum of their abilities, plus the rest of their stats. Without those abilities, they have virtually nothing. They are designed around them, built for a purpose and tailored to that purpose by them. Otherwise, we'd all just be auto-attacking constantly (there's a reason auto-attacking is frowned upon in high-level play :P). Moreover, certain game mechanics are simply *better* than others - like Stun over Spell Vamp. If you cannot accept that you'll never truly understand how LoL works, and much of that deep complexity in the game will be lost upon you, no matter if you know it's there.

I respect you Pandajuice, and you'll never see me turn you down for a game - even if you want to play Sivir. (Edit: Likewise to you too, Meciflorean! ) You presented a problem, and I threw my hat in with an explanation. Take it or leave it - just don't take it personal. I look forward to seeing you, and everyone else, on my team in the future.

[Atlas]

FYI

Thoughts?

[SIZE="6"]The Removal of Flash.. How It Will Change LoL?[/SIZE]

Riot has “some what sort of” announced that they have big changes coming up in the next patch and one of the things that has been talked about a lot if the removal of the summoner ability Flash. So in today’s blog I am going to talk about how this would affect the game we know and love.

Flash is the most popular summoner ability and there’s a lot of reasons why it’s the most popular. You can initiate better and follow-up with your Champions abilities ie Annie + Flash + Tibbers or Galio + Flash + Idol of Duran. Having Flash makes initiation a breeze with these types of champions.

You can use it to get away by flashing over walls, or up/down cliffs. Making it an excellent escape mechanism.

You can use it to close gaps. Say if your Kassadin or Ezreal who has a built-in flash. You can actually double flash to catch up to people and makes for some interesting dives as well. If you’re LeBlanc you can actually tripple Flash with her ultimate making for some ridiculous combo’s.
You can use it with Sivir’s Boomerang Blade and hit people 3 times with it. This isn’t really an effective thing to do but what the hell, it’s something neat you can also do with Flash

Now one of the biggest controversies over flash is its ability to dodge spells in motion allowing you to dodge damage and CC abilities. Thus really “slowing” down the game in terms of what you can accomplish for ganks and in team fights sometimes. Another instance you can use flash to save yourself is if Veigar throw’s down his Stun and has X champions caught in the middle. You can simply flash the circle and get out not being stunned.

At the same time being able to flash these spells and other things also adds some interesting twists to fighting and escaping other champions. If it’s getting down to the wire you can flash a spell or an auto attack, and have the upper hand in the fight because then you’ll be able have that extra hit or cast that extra spell on them before you die.

So to sum up Flash it basically allows you to pull of a lot of crazy stuff you normally wouldn’t be able to do. Now is removing it necessarily a good thing for this game is the question? I believe the answer is… Yes and no. More so leaning towards yes.
If Flash is indeed removed I will miss being able to double Flash on Kassadin allowing me to do some crazy stuff. I will miss being able to have clutch saves by dodging spells with it as well. I will miss using it to be extra mobile and Flash over walls and ledges. At the same time.. I will enjoy other’s not being able to do this much more as I will be able to take advantage of their misfortune for being in a bad position.

I find Flash really does kind of dumb down initiation and gives you a get out of jail free card. It allows you to over extend and play carelessly because guess what! You got Flash and you can just dodge the spell coming at you and run back to tower! I feel that Flash makes this games early game a lot worse. Removing it will promote ganking BIG TIME. Which is a good thing for LoL. I can assure you if Flash gets removed ganking will be the new cool thing to do. A lot of people over extend and with Flash’s removal they will be paying for it. I think it will also show who’s really good at this game. Flash basically allows bad players to do bad things and get away with it. With Flash not there to save people it will allow a lot more players to die. I really think this is a good step for community and the game. Having people die for their careless mistakes will really help the players that are good get rewarded and have the players that are bad be punished.

I think there’s going to be a lot more feeding going on with Flash’s removal and I for one really hope Riot implements it’s removal.

Another thing that will happen with Flash’s removal will most likely be the rise of champions like Xin. With no way to escape proper or burst initiation people will be forced to fight or die. I think the meta game will shift massively with its change. I am not sure if it’s a good thing or not though. I am however excited to see what it will do for our game.

With that being said. I am really excited for next patch. I believe it was GuinBro who made a post saying it will be awesome so I can’t wait to see what Riot has done!
PS: Have a great weekend guys! (And gals if any follow me XD)

[Sullla]

Anyway, to bring up another issue, a bunch of you probably know that I've hated laning against Mordekaiser for a long time now. He's the champion that's always given me the most trouble, with his shield to prevent harassment and various abilities that score lots of minion kills and push the lane. Mordekaiser is known as a "pubstomp" champ, because he's a favorite of newcomers who don't really know what they're doing, playing against opponents who also don't know what they're doing. I suppose you could put me into the same category while I was learning the game!

In one of our games last night, I felt like I finally countered Mordekaiser properly for the first time. I had a solo lane against another Mordekaiser player yet again (a Level 30 player, of course) while playing as Karthus. It became obvious immediately that this Mordekaiser was going to push the lane forward continuously, spamming all of his abilities as soon as they came off of cooldown. This meant that his shield was charged at all times, and I had little chance to harass him. However, at the same time, the Mord player was so trigger-happy that he was actually missing lots of minion kills, although you will always get a lot of them when playing with Mordekaiser (again, pubstomp champ). I simply concentrated on last-hitting minions, staying back to avoid harassment myself, and was able to out-farm the Mordekaiser player pretty easily; I think I was ahead about 65 to 40 or something like that. Very, very big difference. Mord was also extremely vulnerable to a gank from behind, with him constantly pressing up against our tower, and I think eventually we were able to come get him with our jungler.

Anyway, the moral of the story here is simple, but hopefully important to keep in mind. If you're up against a champion who is very strong early game and good at harassing, sometimes the best tactic is to let them push and farm at your own tower. You don't want to get stuck wasting all your health/mana trying to go back and forth with a Malphite or Mordekaiser who's just going to shrug off your attacks. And while it's a very basic skill, learning to last-hit minions is EXTREMELY important. I can't stress that enough, if you have +20 minion kills over the other person in the lane, you have a giant advantage. Practice, practice, practice this skill. I look back at my early League of Legends videos and I am profoundly embarassed.

[Atlas]

BertrandDeHorn's comments in Elementz post

#1 When was ganking not cool?

#2 Without Flash the game will now reward patience and conservative play MUCH more than it already does. Aggresive play will be much less rewarding- especially in the laning phase. Flash enables any champ to potentially ganking his laning opponent, with no extra help. This possibility will be reduced- now you and your oppponenent in lane will just farm, until a jungler comes to help u. More boring.

#3 Dynamism will decrease. Think of all the creative ways listed by Elementz to use Flash… gone, and so will be gone the unthought of ways too.

A few more minutes of thought and it occured to me that maybe the problem is not that Flash is OP, but that compared to revive, clarity, and heal and other spells, it is just clearly a superior choice.

If the elimination of Flash a counter to AD carrys (as some posters suggest), then really the problem is not spells, but champs and items. And getting rid of Flash is silly rememdy.

Why would we want initiation to be more difficult?

Aren’t fights, especially team fights, the best part of the game? Do we want less of that?

I would be carefull with making intiation more difficult, the more difficult it become to intiatie a team fight the more appealing you make Backdooring, you might end up with a game that is all about Backdooring.

The appealing thing about “intiation” is you get to start a team fight on your terms. If niether team can reasonably be sure that they will be able to start a team fight on terms favorable to them (flash+Idol of Duran/bandage toss+Ammumu Ult…etc.), what is the incentive to team fight? I think the result is ALOT more “random” or “lucky” outcomes to teamfights- that is bad result. If teamfights become more random, why do it?

Backdooring and globals Reign Supreme!!!