[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 158:

Turnlog says that Selrahc has switched to Foreign Trade during his GA, which means he’s researched the Trade tech and is avoiding any turns of revolt.



So the Illians are now in City States/Pacifism/Slavery and Foreign Trade.
Not sure about that move.

Here’s a reminder of the civics the Kurios are currently in, and a mouseover telling what Foreign Trade does:

The Illians have no gold modifying buildings (no Currency for Money Changer, not running God-King), so by choosing that civic Selrahc is directly reducing his empire’s gold output by 10%.
For sure, Selrahc has a decent number of cities, say around 15, but none(?) of them are coastal. So that extra trade route is only going to be approx 15 x 2 = 30 extra raw commerce
His GNP was ~220 I believe last turn, I’d estimate 160 while running 100% gold -> 10% of 160 is 16.
As a result he’s lost 16 gpt due to the civic, but gained (30 raw – 10% = 27) 27gpt, a net positive of +11 gpt. Make it +15 gpt to account for the low upkeep of the civic itself.
So what’s the problem you say?

To do that, he’s switched out of Agrarianism.
Widely considered the most overpowered civic in FFH2 (closely followed by Aristocracy), it provides +1 food to each farm, and has crazy synergy with Slavery. Maybe he thinks his Ice temples are providing him with enough food now?
I know he’s building a lot of cottages, but I really don’t think it’s a wise move.

Anyway, enough ranting! We don’t care do we?
There’s much more interesting stuff going on.

Like this!

What?
Demographics at the front? Is all the whole world being turned upside down today?
Nope. I’m just pointing out the Rival Best GNP of 280, last turn it was 220.
Now hold on, I’m the only one allowed to make big jumps in GNP, so who’s the young whippersnapper?
That’ll be Iskender, who is now no longer running a huge gold surplus, and instead has kicked his GNP into gear and is researching at a deficit.

To say I’m watching him like a hawk would be an understatement.
I’m watching him like an animal that hawks use to describe themselves watching something closely.
Here’s his techs:



What else is going on.
My lone Adept has passively gained enough xp to pick up a third spell: Courage.
That’s a useful little buff to add to troops, helping to negate Goblin poison among other things. (+10% heal rate, immune to fear, permanent).



Over at Zaonce, not much happening.
Another Bear stumping through Calabim territory (clearly Sareln is busy in the South with his Hunters), while a Svartalfar worker is chopping jungle, so I guess someone picked up BW recently.



Slightly more interestingly, in the far left of the above screenshot my worker has abandoned improving the second Sugar resource and has moved to the tile 2SE of Riedquat.
Silly plan kicking into gear: he’ll start building a road next turn.
Let’s see how much attention Sareln is paying.

Tailor completed in Avelorn, screenshot says a Stonewarden is next, but I’ll end up switching that.



Much more importantly, the Kuriotates have learned how to fleece the inhabitants of surrounding towns much more efficiently, resulting in improved commerce gains!
Research jumped another 50 bpt, most of that from Caledor, the return of the Dyes will easily take the overall figure over 500 bpt.

Sadly, Selrahc has still not yet whipped the necessary Monument out.
The relevant city is size 3, if it grows to size 4 I might just send him a nudge.
For now…must be patient.

In other news, KK has kicked a rival upstart city into touch, rightfully reclaiming its place as fourth best city in the world.
All is as it should be.



Oh and Bob has built carnivals in Acaia and Morr’ta’nar.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 159:

Taxation splashscreen on loading the save.



Have I raved about the Pillar of Chains yet?
WANT!

Forget the -10 to crime rate, forget the +4 to AC, forget the ‘negate the effects of civic anger’ (it cancels out the unhappy from others running the Liberty or Republic civics, neither of which is anyone likely to use, and has no effect on anger due to Caste System which sucks).
The important effect is the +1 hammer per unhappy pop: it’s the same property Bob gets on his Governor’s Mansion and will result in +27 or more hpt in Caledor.
The war weariness is just icing on the cake, and exactly what the Kuriotates need.

Over in the far East, Adonias is defended by a single warrior.



Stay like that little city!
Still no lizardman spawning sigh, neither there nor at Zaonce.

Now, Selrahc starting his third GA has reminded me that I’ve only had one so far.
I’ve been saving my GArt for the right time, but I think I’m at risk of waiting for Godot if I keep delaying.
Three potential situations to use the GArt for a GA:

1. When building the Pillar of Chains, to get it completed faster.
   
2. When building the Tower of Divination, to ensure it gets built within the 10t mana loan period.
   
3. When building the Tower of Complacency at Avelorn.
   

The good news is that I’m now confident that with the Pillar of Chains, I can easily construct the Tower of Divination within 10t.
Conservatively, I’d be massing 28h base production, plus 27 from the PoC, combined and multiplied by God-King gives 82 hpt.
Tower of Div is 536 hammers, so 7 turns maximum, easy.

That leaves options 1 and 3.
Given the way things are escalating with the Calabim, I think worrying about (3) is a little bit foolish, time to consider the “gain now” factor.

Dong!



That takes the PoC from a 9t build to 6t in the screenshot below, and I’m pretty sure I can get that down to 5t.
By building the PoC 4 turns earlier, I’m earning myself an extra (4 * 28 *1.5) 168 hammers for free.
Sounds like a good deal to me, it’s almost half another wonder.

Smokehouse completed in Caledor.



Starting a GA also boosts the commerce output from all those towns.
Say hello to my little friend…



…I call him Mini-nation!

I also split the GC from Vanilla Ice and attached it to Kes.
If Bob is paying attention, he’ll hopefully think I used that GC to start my Golden Age.


Demographics:

Bob is now solid #1 in the Crop Yield category.
Techwise, I’m now following my ToD plan from here.

On Iskender-watch, he researched Philosophy this turn.

He’s running a deficit of around -90 gpt (nice to know I’m not the only one with painful maintenance) and massing ~290ish bpt.
Philosophy opens up a few options on the tech tree.

1. He intends to research Way of the Wicked to either get Slavery or found CoE.
   
2. He intends to research Way of the Wise to found either Order or Empyrean.
   
3. He intends to research Fanaticism and summon the Mercurians.
   

That last option is interesting.
When listing things Iskender could do a few turns ago (attack Bob, attack me, focus inwards) I forgot about another two options: namely starting over as either the Mercurians or Infernals.
Could work.


On a separate note, I intend to explore that lair near Lave in two turns.
I’ll have around 6 CAs in the area at the time, which should be sufficient to deal with any bad outcomes.

[pocketbeetle]

Diplo:

Reply from Cull:

Mine is until t200 as well.

Hey Cull,

Thanks for getting back to me regarding your NAP with Bob.
I guess that means he could equally attack you or Iskender, but like I said in our brief chat, I really think there's a good chance he's aiming for you.

Below is an email that Bob sent to me around 20 turns ago:

I bring you various tidings from Lord Decius,

I'll be blunt: would you be interested in declaring war on Cull with me at some point in the future? My sole reason for asking is so that we can eliminate him to make the turns run at a decent pace. I think you probably share this objective. I don't have an army set up to attack him right now, so I'm not talking about anything immediate, but I can put together a decent conquering force in short order. If you're interested, maybe we should see if Selrahc wants to get in on the action as well, Iskender too (although I get the impression that he doesn't care too much about the pace).

I know that taking out another player just to maintain a quick turnover rate is pretty severe, but I'm not going to stay up until the wee hours of every night waiting for him to remember that he's still playing in this game and send me the goddamn file. And if I can't play until I get back from class in the morning / early afternoon, then the turn will sit for hours until Sareln can reach it, and by then it may be too late for everyone else in Europe to play. So essentially we may be looking at a turn every other day. And given how slow everything is to happen in FFH, and how interesting this game has been so far, I'd really rather we maintain a fairly steady turn-a-day.

So yeah, any interest?

-Bobchillingworth / Decius / Whatever

I told him that I wasn't interested and wouldn’t get involved.
I have no idea how Selrahc or Iskender responded (doesn’t your NAP with Selrahc run out soon?)

The reason I’m sharing it with you now is to drive the point home, any agreement you sign with the Calabim is simply delaying an inevitable invasion.
You can see how aggressively Bob has settled in your direction, stealing both your land and resources, such as the Gems 7 tiles away from your capital.

I don’t wish to see any players fall to the Vampires, and want to help keep you in the game.
Please at least consider what I’m saying.

Kind Regards,
Pb, Walking softly Boy-King

His reply:

I definitely see what you're saying. However, seeing that I've sent the turn to him on time the last 15 or so turns. I highly doubt at this point that he would attack.
I do get that I should build military, and defense. I would, if it wasn't for I managed to extend the NAP for a while longer last night. Long enough that I feel pretty confident that I can defend at that point.
Yes, he might just be delaying it so that he can feed his vamps a little more before, but it also gives me time.

I think I’m wasting my time here.
If he thinks that he has any chance of making a comeback via peaceful growth, considering the tiny box of land he has, then he’s simply delusional.

Nevermind, let’s get one last piece of information then forget about him.

Hi Cull,

I’m glad to hear that!
It means I can stop worrying about you then, and get back to concentrating on other stuff.

Just one last question, then I can drop this whole issue, what turn does your NAP with the Calabim now end on?

Kind Regards,
Pb, Relieved Boy-King

On the upside, that gives me more ammunition to feed Selrahc’s paranoia.
He hasn’t yet replied to my last email, but a continuing theme of his resistance to my pushing has been his view (and admittedly mine also) that Cull was to be served up first.

[darrelljs]

PB, if memory serves they broke pillar of chains in one of the later patches and never bothered to fix it. I suggest you do a WB test to verify this. Its possible it was only broken in conjunction with Governor's Manors. I tried to find the CFC thread on this but failed .

Darrell

[Darkmantle]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=308020 lists pillar of chains and governor's mansion both having the same problem, the number of hammers added doesn't show in the box display but governor's mansions still work so hopefully pillars isn't broken either.

[Mr. Yellow]

I also split the GC from Vanilla Ice and attached it to Kes.
If Bob is paying attention, he’ll hopefully think I used that GC to start my Golden Age.

[pocketbeetle]

PB, if memory serves they broke pillar of chains in one of the later patches and never bothered to fix it. I suggest you do a WB test to verify this. Its possible it was only broken in conjunction with Governor's Manors. I tried to find the CFC thread on this but failed.

Darrell

Don't scare me like that!

I actually checked in a single player game before starting to build it.
I wasn't worried about it being broken/ not working, but I did want to confirm that God-King multiplies the population hammers.

The PoC has always been a bit of a screwy wonder in that its effects are not obvious.
The added hammers are not displayed in the city screen, but if you count between one turn and another it becomes clear they are there.

Darkmantle hits the nail on the head:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=308020 lists pillar of chains and governor's mansion both having the same problem, the number of hammers added doesn't show in the box display but governor's mansions still work so hopefully pillars isn't broken either.

Exactly (), and as you said Darrell, it doesn't (shouldn't) work in conjunction with Governor's Mansions.
I believe that's working as intended: the effects are not stackable, you can't get a 2 x pop hammer bonus.

Think of it like the City of Thousand Slums world wonder: that provides third ring access for a city, but wouldn't stack if the Kurios were able to build it.
Similarly the Calabim have no reason to build the PoC.
These world wonders are just making some of each civs' unique traits available to others, at a price.

Yeah I know it's a silly little minor detail.
But I like these minor obfuscations, they're fun!

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 160:

This’ll be a quick update.

There’s nothing happening over at Zaonce or with Vanilla Ice, but at Avelorn, Jumbo the Elephant decided that grazing on vegetation is rather boring and Vampire flesh tastes better.



I didn’t know he’d get the Raiders trait also, cool.

Hawk flight over Acaia shows it has a bunch of units and a walls built there (think I've pointed that out before?).



I inserted a Stonewarden into Caledor and also Avelorn (don’t ask).
The one built in Avelorn will go to Selrahc.



More importantly a GPro popped in Avelorn. :hat:
He’ll found the RoK shrine in two turns. (Sorry Rev!)


On Iskender-watch, he researched Way of the Wise this turn.
That means either Order or Empyrean.

I thought he’d go for Order: yes Chalid is omgwtfbbq, but he still needs Religious Law, a 2.5k b tech.
Order provides more short term gains. (Confessors, Bless, and the hero Valin is a Mounted unit – good for the Hippus).
Turns out I was wrong.

[pocketbeetle]

Diplo:

Cull replied with a non-answer:

Not long enough. At this point, I'm doing all I can into military. :weed:

Thanks for the headsup about Bob, even though you probably already knew of Selarhc.

That last line sounds to me like Bob has been whispering poison in Cull’s ear during all these NAP talks.

That’s okay, I can hit back.

Hi Cull,

Yeah pretty much everyone knew about that.
Why do you think Bob made you give a city instead of him?

Regards,
Pb, cba Boy-King

Cull is now officially a lost cause - he’s NAP’d himself into obscurity.

I’m also slightly concerned about how he’s managed to get these long term deals.
He has virtually nothing to offer Bob, being militarily weak, no palace mana, and the only resources that he has which Bob doesn’t are Sugar and Silk (plus Bananas which Cull’s already trading).
It’s for sure not out of friendship: Bob doesn’t like Cull one bit.
Forget him.

Right, we haven’t heard from the Hippus in a while.
Couple of days ago I received this from Iskender:

Hi there

Indeed, Sareln founded a city in the non-settling zone. He wasn't
explicitly prohibited from doing so - the NAP and settling agreement
between me and the Calabim doesn't involve the Elves. I am mostly
annoyed at the manner in which the city was founded, that is, without
any regard for my wishes and with calling in the Calabim, thus I've
decided to take the city by force. The NAP makes it difficult though,
as there are probably some Calabim troops in the new city's garrison.

I don't think Bob wants to end the NAP. He's making regular attempts
to get me on his side (which is quite unlikely after a series of
diplomatic blunders). Actually I believe I'm the party more interested
in shortening the NAP, I need to get some serious offensive force
first and, as you noted, it requires aid or an ally. Are you
interested?

Iskender

I replied the next day.

Hey Iskender,

Sorry for my slightly slow reply.
Since I last emailed you, Kurio-Calabim relations have deteriorated further, with Bob threatening to declare war on me for moving close to a lizardman ruins in neutral territory. (Not exploring it or attacking it, simply moving a single unit close).
Needless to say, I find the actions of the #2 power threatening the #1 power rather unamusing, so yes, I think my answer is that I am interested.

Going through your email, I’ve got a couple of comments.
First off, I don’t understand why Calabim troops being in a Svartalfar city makes things difficult for you. You know that if you are at war with the Svartalfar yet at peace with the Calabim, that any attacks on such a city would ignore the Calabim troops?
Either way, I’m happy to put my hawks at your disposal, if you wish me to move one down there and scout the area for Calabim troops.

Secondly, I’m glad you want to shorten the NAP with Bob, but I respectfully suggest that you’re underestimating how committed Bob is to defending Sareln.
Below is a section from a chat I had with Bob several months ago, when DaveV was in charge. It happened just after the Hippus and Calabim had signed peace and you had used your worldspell. DaveV and Bob were trying to convince me you meant to attack, I suggested that maybe you intended to attack Sareln.
His response:

(8:10:02 PM) BobChillingworth: he couldn't expect to hold either of sareln's two cities
(8:10:04 PM) pocketbeetle: Pillage gold? New city? resources?
(8:10:10 PM) pocketbeetle: Are they too far away?
(8:10:24 PM) BobChillingworth: both of sareln's cities are distant, and both are right next to my borders
(8:10:45 PM) BobChillingworth: besides I'd have to declare on Iskender again to defend my vassal... er, buddy
(8:10:53 PM) pocketbeetle: hmmm.
(8:11:54 PM) pocketbeetle: How logn term is your NAP with Iskender?
(8:13:09 PM) BobChillingworth: pretty long I think
(8:13:24 PM) BobChillingworth: I personally would urge dave to break it if sareln was attacked
(8:13:44 PM) BobChillingworth: and I've let Iskender know that I'd have no problem doing whatever it took to keep sareln alive

In short, I think there’s a very good chance he would declare on you.
We may be able to use that.

As for the Kuriotates, we’re unhappy with the Calabim (have you seen their land?) and fear that sitting back and staying neutral will lead to an eventual Vampire conquest victory.
We have the Raiders trait, we have Centaurs, we will soon have Engineering for increased road movement.
I see no reason not to combine the three and go on a sightseeing tour of some Calabim cities.

In the spirit of cooperation, you may have noticed that I have a worker pasturing the Cows near our border. I will also be connecting a second Sheep soon.
If you’re interested in any of those, for free, let me know.

In return, satisfy my curiosity.
Which religion are you aiming to found? Order or Empyrean?
I finally figured out what you were doing this turn, but decided not to try and race.
So if you want to save some of your gold for upgrades and research whichever one more slowly, feel free.

Kind Regards,
Pb, Betting on Order Boy-King.

I didn’t hear anything back from Iskender, so eventually chased him for a chat inbetween T160 and T161.

(11:07:50 AM) Iskender: hey Pb
(11:07:56 AM) Iskender: i went Empy
(11:08:23 AM) Iskender: let me answer some of your questions:
(11:09:37 AM) Iskender: in my NAP negotiations with bob 50 turns ago i explicitly promised that if he stations troops in Sarelns cities i won't attack them. that's the thing that makes it difficult, at least diplomatically
(11:10:46 AM) Iskender: i'm negotiating with Sareln, he might give me some kind of compensation for settling that city. i want to get the wheat and also bronze that is S of the city
(11:11:05 AM) Iskender: still, it doesn't make the Calabim issue go away
(11:13:10 AM) Iskender: i'd like to eventually grab that entire fertile crescent they started in. it is a bold plan, i know, especially that they've already discovered feudalism
(11:14:58 AM) pocketbeetle: Hi Iskender
(11:15:15 AM) pocketbeetle: ooh Empy, interesting, I guessed wrong
(11:15:32 AM) Iskender: do we have a conflict of interest here?
(11:15:47 AM) Iskender: i didn't really need to rush it
(11:15:51 AM) pocketbeetle: Nope, I meant what I said, it's your to found
(11:16:10 AM) Iskender: as i wasn't bent on founding it. i just like rathas
(11:16:30 AM) pocketbeetle: Maybe later we could work a RoK priests for Empy priests deal, who knows. Or both go for Overcouncil?
(11:16:38 AM) pocketbeetle: anyway, dealing with matter at hand
(11:17:05 AM) pocketbeetle: Bob's troops and you can't attack them, okay not a problem. Would you like me to move a hawk down and scout wherever the city is next turn?
(11:17:42 AM) pocketbeetle: If there's none there, then nothing would stand in your way if you moved quickly with mounted units would it?
(11:17:53 AM) Iskender: sure if you wish, but I'm not going to attack it right now
(11:17:54 AM) pocketbeetle: (not right now, but it future)
(11:18:01 AM) pocketbeetle: I know, yup
(11:18:09 AM) Iskender: i'm quite certain there are some bob's units
(11:18:35 AM) pocketbeetle: Okay, well no harm checking.
Next, you want Bob's land do you
(11:18:42 AM) Iskender: maybe two bloodpets or moroi
(11:18:48 AM) pocketbeetle: Ah, you've seen that floodplain river, with the gold on top?
(11:18:57 AM) Iskender: yes. and i wept
(11:19:01 AM) pocketbeetle: crazy I know
(11:19:08 AM) pocketbeetle: No secret why Calabim now top crop yield
(11:19:18 AM) pocketbeetle: and feeds into Gov mansions nastily
(11:20:34 AM) Iskender: i'm not sure what i could do about it at the moment
(11:20:42 AM) Iskender: actually i am sure i could do nothing
(11:21:03 AM) pocketbeetle: Well, let me be clear Iskender. I have no further territorial aims in this game. I might settle a few more settlements here and there, but if you wanted Bob's lands, I'm not going to kick up a fuss. I can't defend settlements over there realistically
(11:21:04 AM) Iskender: btw. he's going AV
(11:21:31 AM) pocketbeetle: So frankly, if thing's went well, you'd be gaining a decent amount of land
(11:21:58 AM) pocketbeetle: Really? Ritualists? Or summon hyborem?
(11:22:27 AM) Iskender: ritualists for sure. i dont know about hybo
(11:22:37 AM) pocketbeetle: interesting, thanks for telling me
(11:22:51 AM) Iskender: probably yes - he could make good use of sacrifice the weak
(11:23:18 AM) pocketbeetle: So, are you interested in some sort of military alliance vs the Calabim? It seems to me that if it goes well, you could gain a lot
(11:23:46 AM) pocketbeetle: And I have no problems with that. My main aim is a weaker Calabim, that's all
(11:23:56 AM) Iskender: i need to find a way to circumvent that NAP first :/
(11:24:18 AM) pocketbeetle: Well, did you see that chat part? I'm pretty damn sure he'd declare
(11:24:51 AM) pocketbeetle: (Either that, or he was making a very good bluff)
(11:25:44 AM) Iskender: yes, but if he stations units in that sarelns city I might as well break the NAP outright, as i promised not to attack cities in which he has troops
(11:26:20 AM) Iskender: i had different plans when i made that promise - i wanted to somehow talk sareln into breaking his bonds with bob and 'liberate' him
(11:26:38 AM) Iskender: i was under impression that he was not happy about being Bob's vassal
(11:26:46 AM) Iskender: but that didn't work out
(11:27:17 AM) pocketbeetle: No, its been pretty clear that Sareln is Bob's vassal, Bob says it, Sareln doesn't deny it etc
(11:27:53 AM) pocketbeetle: What I'm worried about is who Bob intends to attack next.
(11:28:12 AM) pocketbeetle: Apparently Cull has a nap longer than T200 with Bob, you have til T200, that leaves Selrahc or me
(11:28:27 AM) pocketbeetle: Or, he intends to break it with you, but you don't seem to think so
(11:28:28 AM) Iskender: could be me. but rathas can save my butt until i get more serious force online
(11:28:56 AM) Iskender: he still needs a dozen or more turns to train and feed the vampires
(11:29:18 AM) pocketbeetle: True, and has got to complete Fued however far into it he is
(11:29:30 AM) Iskender: he discovered it
(11:29:38 AM) Iskender: i think i mentioned that somewhere above
(11:29:41 AM) pocketbeetle: ?
(11:30:02 AM) pocketbeetle: When did he discover it? Must be this turn, I checked last
(11:30:09 AM) Iskender: this turn
(11:30:11 AM) Iskender: i mean last
(11:30:18 AM) Iskender: EOT
(11:30:19 AM) Iskender: technically
(11:30:21 AM) pocketbeetle: Ah k. That sucks, I thought he had another 5+ turns to go at least
(11:30:39 AM) Iskender: yeah, i was surprised as well
(11:30:46 AM) pocketbeetle: Such is life, still gotta train them as you say
(11:30:51 AM) Iskender: his gnp is not really mindblowing
(11:31:11 AM) pocketbeetle: Considering his land, he should be doing better imo. But that's better for us I guess
(11:31:56 AM) Iskender: indeed. that goldmine has been 9gc all along. and those floodplains...
(11:32:22 AM) pocketbeetle: So, I can see a couple of options depending on what hawks show. You attack Sareln, or if Calabim troops there, we could sign a military defensive pact and I either declare war on bob or get him to declare war
(11:32:46 AM) pocketbeetle: (I think I could get him to declare war, he promised to if I explore a lair near him, which I haven't done yet )
(11:33:33 AM) pocketbeetle: That's if you would prefer not to break your nap. I can understand if so, but equally if you want to break it, I definitely won't hold it against you at all
(11:33:50 AM) Iskender: let's see what the hawk reveals
(11:34:21 AM) pocketbeetle: okay. Where abouts is the city? Where should I move the hawks to roughly?
(11:34:45 AM) Iskender: the city is 1S of the wheat
(11:35:28 AM) Iskender: try to move the hawk as far from the city as possible so sareln doesn't see with his hawks that something's cooking
(11:36:10 AM) pocketbeetle: Okay, hawk sight range is 5, plus flying of 3 = 8. Can you find a city of yours 7-8 tiles away from it?
(11:36:37 AM) Iskender: let me see
(11:38:36 AM) Iskender: Mourosbane - 8W 2N of the city. i'm not sure if it's withing range
(11:39:05 AM) pocketbeetle: Okay, well I try there first, and if not will move a second a little closer
(11:39:22 AM) Iskender: Mourosbane is 5S of my mana node
(11:39:25 AM) pocketbeetle: I'll send you a screenshot of anything I find, fair enough?
(11:39:31 AM) Iskender: no, wait 4S
(11:39:37 AM) Iskender: ok, sure
(11:40:15 AM) pocketbeetle: Okay, but you seem a little hesitant still. I'm not going to push you now, but is there anything I can say to convince you? Is there anything you want?
(11:41:03 AM) Iskender: give me some time to figure out how I could bite those cities
(11:41:09 AM) Iskender: i mean Bob's
(11:41:36 AM) pocketbeetle: Sure. Do you have recent map knowledge?
(11:41:46 AM) Iskender: i could immobilize his stack with rathas if he makes a mistake and positions it badly
(11:41:51 AM) Iskender: yes
(11:42:18 AM) pocketbeetle: good okay. I went raiders because I saw so many roads there. So much criss crossing
(11:42:38 AM) Iskender: indeed. that's pure smoke
(11:43:17 AM) pocketbeetle: I'll let you know once I get the save. Thanks for the chat though Iskender.
(11:43:30 AM) Iskender: ok, cheers

So Bob’s going AV (seems he was interested in AV after all, when we had that long-going-nowhere chat), Iskender wants Rathas, and more importantly Bob now has Feudalism.
That’s annoying, I’ve been paying too much attention to Iskender’s research I guess.

Iskender wants me to take a peek at Sareln’s city, so okay, let’s take a look.

[Darkmantle]

Could we get an update on the size of your military. I'm particularly interested in if you play to keep any stonewarden's around as medics and the status of the lone adept you have running around. Are you on track to give him rust when the entropy mana from the ashen veil shrine comes in?

Also in terms of long term tech potential, you are planning on going arcane lore are you going to build Hemah straight away or will he take some time to kick in? Does Heroic epic effect the production of hero and or arcane units? When are you going to going to switch over to octopus overlords?