PBEM3 Spoilers - timmy827 of Khmer

[Shoot the Moon]

Well, sounds like we have a pretty clear goal going forward. I assume you have seen that Sandover has a city in the middle of the lake? It looks like the map must have been edited to put that in. Small note, but it would be good to tell scooter and SM about it. We should not leave any coastal city undefended any more it looks like.

In regards to diplo, I am not entirely sure I like telling the person we are at war with what we have just researched until they actually know. If you think Amelia will actually accept the agreement then it might be worth it, but my gut says she will automatically reject it and all we'll have accomplished is telling her to expect cavalry.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

You were correct that Amelia rejected the offer. Sent this email:

GES,

I think not.

I have still have one last blow to deliver.

Your deathblow.

Amelia.

Unless Sandover gifted a bunch of troops, that strikes me as fairly laughable.

I didn't really worry too much about mentioning Cavalry because all you have to do is go to the "able to research" section of the tech screen and figure out what everyone has. But maybe not everyone does that. I also am not sure I will actually upgrade to cavs, so it was partial misdirection.

I am emailing the save to you StM. I haven't had a chance to look at it yet. Let me know what you see and suggest.

Sandover strikes me as a ruthless pragmatist, but also fairly cocky. Blustering at him isn't likely to have much effect. Something like this might get his attention though:

Sandover,

Given that your actions have given me a window into your play style and temperament, allow me to respond to you in terms that you may understand:

You have shoved your nose into business that was not yours. If you continue to do so, I will hit you where it hurts: your desire for victory.

Any future city you raze, I will allow scooter to rebuild in its place.

Any continued action taken against my civilization, be it choking a city, propping up Amelia in our war, or continued open aggression, will result in me beginning to gift the large, productive cities from my empire to scooter.

You are the prohibitive favorite because you annexed TT. If I allow my civilization to be united with scooter's, your main advantage will be nullified. You are not the tech leader. And your GNP is not the best. Imagine the disparity that could develop if the tech leader received a large swath of tasty, developed land. And then could defend it with troops more advanced than your own. What would that do, exactly, for your visions of world domination?

Just some food for thought, from one vindictive leader to a ruthless tyrant.

Bad things happen in war, including strengthening bonds between your mutual enemies, so let this serve as a reminder of the potential consequences of your arrogance and opportunism.

GES

I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent me from making these kinds of city gifts, thus I feel this threat should at least get his attention. I would like to continue annexing some more of Rome, but I cannot do that without making Sandover think twice about continued interference.

I wouldn't send the correspondence to Sandover without first discussing it with scooter. I need to think about it more anyway.

Not sure what the effects of making my friendly ties with scooter so evident would be.

[novice]

I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent me from making these kinds of city gifts, thus I feel this threat should at least get his attention.

I think these kinds of city gifts are now generally considered unsporting at Realms Beyond. But not illegal, unless the rules say so.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Unsporting, but not banned. Which should be enough to get the attention of Sandover.

Also, the situation, if I decided to go that route, would be rather different than PB2. Sandover isn't about the conquer me. I don't think he could even if he wanted to. We don't share a border, and unless he has tons of ships, he could never get enough troops to my territory before I recall my 2-movers. I wouldn't be dumping cities to prevent Sandover from getting them (he has one curaisser left in my lands after razing the city and his ships are on the retreat), as Jowy and Kathlete did in PB2. The point was that those gifted cities were rightfully the property of Sullla/Speaker as they would've taken those cities by force sooner rather than later. The situation here is rather different.

But nevertheless, as a threat, I think it is the most powerful one I can leverage for getting him off my back. I want to take more of Rome (especially a city that borders Sandover) and I would prefer not to have to worry about pulling troops away from that front. The more I think about it, the razing of Loon Lake wasn't nearly the blow to my Civ I thought.

[Shoot the Moon]

As a heads up, the soonest I'll likely be able to look at the save would be tomorrow afternoon, with a slight chance of tomorrow morning.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

OK, I looked briefly.

Sandover has one curaisser left near the ruins of Loon Lake that I will easily kill with a cav and 4 knights nearby. His galleons are in retreat back across the lake. I might be able to hit them with the ships that are station in another coastal city we have. Didn't look at that in detail.

Not much on the Amelia front. He cleaned out our knights that were west of the city, but seems to have taken losses. I don't want to slow down the game, but I am not ready to play my turn yet.

I thought Loon Lake was our Heroic Epic city, but I don't think so. Now I am thinking it is Eroica.

[fluffyflyingpig]

I think these kinds of city gifts are now generally considered unsporting at Realms Beyond. But not illegal, unless the rules say so.

I'd have to say that city gifts of this sort would be even worse than PB2. Different situation, but this sort of city gifting would completely destroy game balance in future games. If Timmy and/or Bob had simply decided to gift all their cities to scooter instead of leaving then this game would likely be over already, handed to scooter on a silver platter. And the precedent it sets would be ugly. Two neighboring secondary or tertiary powers who both can't win can easily city gift their way to one dominant civ and a OCC just to keep someone they don't like from winning.

Likewise for massive unilateral gold gifts in a non-tech trading game like this one being unsporting but not banned. A coalition against someone is one thing, but even vassalized AIs will conduct their own research and not gift you their cities. Nothing against the rules, but you'll likely get some flak. And people thinking twice about your offer of impartial arbiter for future pitboss games


Also, I love how you agree that Sandover made a good move in one sentence, and declare eternal vengeance against him in the next. Looking forward to seeing this play out.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Different situation, but this sort of city gifting would completely destroy game balance in future games. If Timmy and/or Bob had simply decided to gift all their cities to scooter instead of leaving then this game would likely be over already, handed to scooter on a silver platter. And the precedent it sets would be ugly. Two neighboring secondary or tertiary powers who both can't win can easily city gift their way to one dominant civ and a OCC just to keep someone they don't like from winning.

This is an argument that I cannot disagree with in the slightest. I don't even think I can play devil's advocate well enough to dispute that. But the question is, will Sandover buy any I threat I would make to do this enough to get him out of my hair? That is the question I am really interested in He might double-down, which would be a far more interesting response, to call my bluff.

If I was a lurker, I wouldn't be at all pleased if someone actually gifted half their empire away when under no threat of elimination just to spite another civ. But am I supposed to believe that a threat to do so is really a gambit beyond the realms so to speak?

I am genuinely curious.

[Sullla]

If you're serious about going down that route - "give in to my diplomatic demands or I will gift away my cities to another civ" - then I would be completely disgusted. I mean no offense, but that's incredibly poor sportsmanship, and would turn the game into a mockery. Just because something isn't explicitly written as against the rules doesn't mean that you should do it. "Bad precedent" is an understatement: what's the incentive to play well and take a lead, if artificial gifting is going to hand someone else the game?

Well, I hope that you take a different approach.

[Twinkletoes89]

I think there is a little bit of hyperbole going on in here, but I can see why it has come to pass.

As a gambit, it may work and you get Sandover out of the war - but what happens if he calls your bluff? If you then do not follow through on your threat, then you will lose credibility.

I can relate to your situation, so I advise you to take a step back and really think if you are prepared to walk down the dark path. You seem like a good guy and a decent player, but something like this can hurt you badly (its the way it is, not my opinion).

So while it may be a gambit with a slight chance of success, it leaves you in a very precarious position and it also can come across as desperation.

Best of luck with what you decide!