Epic 7 - sooooo's report

[sooooo]

Epic 7 - Mano y Mano

This was a dual sized Immortal game, playing as Hatshepsut against Alexander of Greece. The map script was archipelago snaky continents, with each civ having a "home continent" with various outlying smaller islands also present. The variant was that we could not attack the Greek home continent.

The start was one of the most interesting ones we've had so far in the epics. Not just where to settle, but what to build and research. There is no obvious strategy, like in a few previous events. But first we need a game plan.

Wonders were going to be important in this game. Being in direct competition with just one AI, every wonder we don't get means one more wonder Alex will get. Alex is philosophical and likes to hire a lot of specialists. There is no way we can let him have The Pyramids or The Great Library. Since this is an archi map, the Great Lighthouse and colossus would also be useful. With only one trading partner, the lighthouse would not be as crazy as normal, but it's still good value.

Short Aside:

We're playing as Egypt ... and we only have one competitor. Who's going to keep a book on how many times Sirian uses the "De Nile" joke if he reports ?? I'm going for ... 8 times. End Aside.

Being separated from the AI, there is no point prioritising the bottom segment of the tree for the military techs. Similarly with no tech trading, going up the top line for alphabet is not so hot. I wanted to make sure I founded a religion for the +25% org rel bonus. With that goal, and most of the wonders I wanted being on the middle section, that's where I started, with Mysticism. Since we also start with Agriculture and will have wheat in the BFC, I also planned to start with a worker. Religion/worker start? Tis a bit unusual, but is something you can do if your civ starts with agri, and I did it in Epic 3 too. I decided to ignore the fish for the time being. With wanting to found Hinduism, researching Fishing would be a delay. Also, a worker would be more useful here because after the farm is finished he can go and do other things rather than being consumed.

I settled 1S of the starting position. I figured that site and the starting position were pretty much similar, but moving 1S would save a forest and there could be some more seafood in the south. In the event there was no more seafood, but I don't think I lost anything by moving. The hut got me some gold. My scouting warrior found a decent stone (!) city and quite a nice choke point in the north. Once mysticism was done, I started Polytheism. The worker completed and went to farm the wheat. I then built 3 warriors for fog-busting duty, because I don't particularly like immortal barbs. I figure I can deal with barb archers that spawn in the north, because they will meet my fortified warrior in the hill forest. But if any spawn near my capital I'm pretty much screwed.



That screenshot was after my first warrior being built, with the second due to head east into the hills and the third to fortify in the capital.

We founded Hinduism in 3580 AD. The next was mining, which came in only a couple of turns after my worker finished his farm so he had something to do still. After that came fishing, sailing and masonry, the techs I would need for my first two wonders. Following the warriors, I built a work boat followed by a settler. I had planned for blue dot on the screenshot above, but for some reason I founded 1SE of that spot. That was definite on my part and I cannot remember my reasons for changing my mind. Those bananas would end up being wasted. Anyway, Memphis started on The Pyramids as soon as it was founded. Thebes built a work boat for Memphis, then a lighthouse followed by The Great Lighthouse.

After Masonry, the next techs to be researched were Priesthood, Pottery, and Bronze Working.

The effect of The Great Lighthouse was not so noticable, and I should probably have gone for the Oracle in Thebes. After having hooked up the stone, progress on these two wonders were rapid and I got The Great Lighthouse in 865 BC and The Pyramids in 655 BC. I started The Oracle in Thebes but it was built soon after by Alex. Next on my list of wonders was The Great Library, so I researched Alphabet and Literature next.

While they were researched, I cranked out 2 more settlers. The first went to the canal city blue dot indicated in the earlier screenshot, getting corn and ivory. The second went to the north, to get sheep, furs and incense.

Great Library was built in Thebes in 470 AD. Alex got Metal Casting very early and was able to get The Colossus before I even had the tech to try for it. He also got Parthenon and Chicken Itza. For some reason Alex did not want Stonehenge, so I got it for De Nile purposes in 70 BC. I was fairly paranoid about there being a galley route to "my" islands, so I settled the two outlying islands before the pigs+silver city city just east of Thebes. Here is my empire after having founded those three cities:



In hindsight that was a pretty poor dotmap. I should not have wasted those bananas or fish on the east coast. Maybe I could have settled those cities anyway, and been cramped for room. It would probably have been better. I was building Hindu and Jewish monasteries to try and get 2 religions and 2 temples in Stonehenge City (Heliopolis) to get me a priest for the Hindu shrine. It never happened though because Thebes was always ahead in GP points due to the great library and got many a scientist.

It was time to fill in some tech gaps. I got Code of Laws, Mathematics, Currency and Civil Service next. I ignored some pretty strong warning signs in 1142 AD when Alex revolted to Vassalage and Theocracy. That's not fair, I don't even know those techs yet! Anyway, he declared on me in 1226 AD. It's not hard so see why, here is my military 1 turn earlier:



So I rolled over and died to 8 experience axemen vs warriors right? Well no. That war lasted until 1730 AD, not coincidentally the date in which Alex finally got off his lazy arse and landed some troops on my lands. Well actually his lands, but we'll get to that later. Yep, despite me having 7 cities and 7 warriors, all Alex did was to send a few galleys and caravels over to stop me working the coast near Heliopolis. He didn't even send anything to pillage the fish at Thebes. Nor could he be bothered to circumnavigate with his caravels. I built some axes and spears pretty quickly anyway, but there was no landing party to deal with. I guess this facet of the AI was why this game was at immortal difficulty. It would probably have been fine at deity too.

This peaceful war must have hurt Alex economically, because I was able to win the race to Liberalism in 1418 AD, taking Nationalism. On the same turn I built Angkor Wat, because with many temples already built it would help the gold situation to hire priests rather than engineers.

My plan was to beeline to rifles and get some drafting going. After filling in a few gaps in the tech tree, that finally happened in 1610 AD. I had optics, but not astronomy yet. I had been drafting muskets, but was surprised to see that I could only draft 1 unit per turn on this duel map. My new caravels killed Alex's that had been sitting outside Heliopolis for hundreds of years, and I also circumnavigated which was very useful. My first invasion force of rifles and cats were packed onto galleys and sent to conquer. Alex had rifles and cavs, so it should be easy from here on in. The next tech to research was Astronomy. Here's the plan:



As you can see from the screenshot, I was in a golden age that I started from 2 great people once rifling came in. I did not try for the Taj, and Alex got it.

Here is the power chart before I started my offensive:



Sparta Conrinth was first to fall (3 riflemen defending), and was captured fairly easily after 2 suicide cats. It would be of no use to me because of the culture from Alex's main continent, and revolted 3 times. It was never re-attacked despite being left defended by 1 rifle and 1 musket and being right next to Alex's production towns.

I made use of the spiritul trade here, changing from nationhood and free speech rapidly, and also from free religion to and from theology when required. I adopted police state (thanks, Pyramids) as soon as WW got large, and it did (+11 in the capital at one stage). Obviously I switched to Mercantilism as soon as I got banking for free AKWed priests in every city.

My galleys and protective caravels made the perilous journey around the coastline to the southern island. The first wave of galleys dropped off 4 cats, 2 protective rifles and 2 muskets to begin the bombarding before the other forces came. However, no one told the RNG gods that rifles in a forest should not lose to cavs, and both my rifles and a musket were killed before the reinforcements came.

I was first to Astronomy, and this helped me immensely. After turning off research and upgrading galleys to galleons, reinforcements came quickly and I captured the four cities on that island but lost most of my troops. Alex decided it was finally time to fight back, and landed this invasion force:



I couldn't deal with this, but Alex decided he'd now was the time he'd had enough of this 6-century old war and gave me peace and threw in 50 gold and his map too :crazyeyes:.

However, by the time I was ready to redeclare in 20 or so turns, I had chemistry and steel and was able to decimate this stack (which was still there) with cannons. After settling some more isolated islands and capturing 5 more Greek cities with cannons/grenadiers (4 of them arctic iceballs), I got over the 74% domination limit in 1788 AD. Here are my cities, note that Alex does not control any tiles outside of his Core Continent.



Starting on your own continent was a nice break from the previous two epics. A peaceful, wonder-filled beginning was just what was required. However, this also brought about its problems, namely exemplifying how terrible the AI is at intercontinental warface. I mean seriously, with 7 warriors defending my empire in the 13th century, surely an immortal AI can send a few stacks over instead of empty ships? And its defense of its outlying cities was also awful. Where was the stack of siege weapons on that southern continent to decimate a landing party? Where were the reinforcements from the home continent? Each city had reliably 3 or 2 riflemen, with just one having 2 cavs too. All I needed was 2 suicide cats per city plus 4-5 attacking rifles and the city was mine. But anyway, I'd like to see how others do and how early my domination date is. I don't think there's enough land to grab without astronomy, so the earliest dates may come from a beeline to astronomy followed by a maceman/catapult/galleon war, hoping the AI hasn't got rifles yet. I expect overwhelmingly for domination to be the most popular victory, with a few cultural ones thrown in too. Finally, thanks for the Sponsor and to RB for the game.

[mostly_harmless]

Congratulations.
There is a tiny mistake in your report whihch could be misleading to the hurried reader. You mentioned you captured Sparta (a city on Alex's home continent!) but you surley meant Corinth?

[theGrimm]

I don't think there's enough land to grab without astronomy, so the earliest dates may come from a beeline to astronomy followed by a maceman/catapult/galleon war, hoping the AI hasn't got rifles yet.

Actually, there is. With 8 tiles to spare. Living on the edge...

[sooooo]

Congratulations.
There is a tiny mistake in your report whihch could be misleading to the hurried reader. You mentioned you captured Sparta (a city on Alex's home continent!) but you surley meant Corinth?

Thanks, you're right I meant Corinth.

Actually, there is. With 8 tiles to spare. Living on the edge...

True, so there is. Anyway, I had planned to start my attack after a rifle draft so astronomy wasn't far away. I guess attacking earlier with maces/elephants would have lead to a faster victory.

After reading other reports, it seemed Alex's lack of a landing party was unusual in my game. I wonder why that is. Maybe it's because I had no cities on the east coast, so Alex didn't fancy attacking? I don't know, I'm clutching at straws here.

[ThERat]

nice report and I like your initital city placements..looks very similar to mine

After reading other reports, it seemed Alex's lack of a landing party was unusual in my game

I also had a mere 2 galleys full of HA and archers for the whole game. He was strangely passive all the time. What did that fellow do?

[theGrimm]

I also had a mere 2 galleys full of HA and archers for the whole game. He was strangely passive all the time. What did that fellow do?

After I achieved domination victory, I opened the world builder and looked. Alex, despite being at war with me and losing cities left right and centre, was building 2 harbours and the Hagia Sophia!!!

I was chocking his cities with galleys, for goodness sake, and he wasn't building a single ship! (And he had caravels, and could not have been far from galleons)...

[ThERat]

that's interesting, maybe I have to open my save and check as well, TheGrimm.

This kind of extreme setup shows all too well the incapable AI. I have to say that I am quite disappointed by it. This has changed my playstyle from careful to super aggressive in CIV and it surely works wonders. But it is boring in the long run.
I would have loved epic battles in this game but the only battle I faced was a stalling economy

[darrelljs]

Interesting on moving the Settler 1S, if nothing else it converted a Scout to gold! It made your dot map radically different than mine. In fact, my second city ended up being your sixth city, as you were locking up the eastern islands! Well played game

Your opening (very detailed notes, especially on the research path ):

Research Path: Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Mining -> Fishing -> Sailing -> Masonry -> Priesthood -> Pottery -> Bronze Working
Build Queue: Worker -> Warrior (x3) -> Workboat -> Settler
Second City: NE of Stone, date unknown.

Darrell

[blid]

Nice game sooooo
That was a damn early date for rifles you got there. It seems like pyramids really did good in this event

[mbuna120]

Nice AI butt whoopin'. I have a question though, because I ask a lot of questions...

I wanted to make sure I founded a religion for the +25% org rel bonus.

Is this a bonus to research? I suppose this is a hidden bonus? Like when a tech takes less time because you've gotten the extra, unnessary "prerequisites"? How do you guys know about all these hidden boni? Where can I find out/read about all there are? These sort of things are the type of knowledge that can drastically affect a game in the long run, I think.