Sullla's Epic Eleven Shadow/Comments from the Sponsor

[Sullla]

Yep, here you go.

http://www.garath.net/Sullla/civ4_epic11_1.html

Thanks to T-Hawk's game, I have to eat my hat.

[Griselda]

Not just that, you have to "seriously" eat your hat. I'm thinking Civ-box style.

[haphazard1]

Sulla, thanks once again for sponsoring what turned out to be a terrifically fun game. Further thanks for the sponsor's comments and shadow game -- knowing what went on in planning and setting up the scenario adds a lot to the total learning experience. Especially for newer, less knowledgable players like myself.

One question about the modifications to the AI civs' starting positions: there was a tile, 2W 1 N of Moscow, which showed as a "Flood Plains/Grassland" and produced 6 food when farmed (pre-Biology). I've never seen such a beast before, and I'm guessing this was something from the modifications?

Glad to see I wasn't imagining things about the various starts...no wonder Khan was such a menace.

[T-hawk]

Mmm, Rawlings flavor.

Otherwise, it was simple to give points for fastest finishers, although I wonder if I shouldn't have upped those points slightly (?)

Nod - those points were the first thing I ignored.

Oh well. The points for promoting a Navy SEAL to elite status (Combat V) is an adaptation of Sirian's points for promoting American F-15 units to elite (that was the American unique unit in Civ3). If you never looked at the Civ3 game, it probably seemed totally random, but it was not!

Sirian had a reason for that in Civ 3 - to give players a chance to play with the F-15 since it never came up in normal games. By contrast, the Navy SEAL in Civ 4 is less of a novelty item. Also, the elite F-15 didn't take much actual effort, since it only needs one promotion after starting as veteran. By contrast, this game took an entire war's worth of effort to satisfy that goal, with the liability of a bad dice roll wiping it all out at any time. I did it, but I wasn't particularly satisfied with the goal or the execution; it felt like busy work. Crafting these scenario goals is harder to do well than it seems.

I had half a mind to delay the Oracle . . . 2) it would be stupid to pass up 30 turns of the Oracle's culture.

30 turns of the Oracle is 240 culture. Way to cut a quarter-turn off your finish date.

The whole cultural gameplan has flipped completely around from Civ 3 to Civ 4. In Civ 3, *everything* was about the early wonders. You could win a cultural victory just on the Colossus and Great Library. In Civ 4, the multiplier buildings mean that culture acquired before they're in place gets marginalized into insignificance. And even an early wonder is less than a single Great Artist.

Note the magnitude of the numbers at your checkpoints. Boston had 8000 culture at 1502 AD, and produced over 1000/turn in the endgame. The entire first four millennia of that city were equal to a mere EIGHT TURNS of end-game cultural production. That's how much culture production back-loads into the endgame. And that effect grows even larger when the culture slider is in play.

T-Hawk posted that he finished this game; I'll enjoy comparing notes against his inevitable 1750AD finish.

8) I think I can list the factors that account for the difference in our finish dates:
1. Your New York was a stronger site than my Montreal (the Great Lighthouse city) and got more wonders.
2. I missed Sistine. _Something_ had to give in my game plan and that was it.
3. You got Divine Right early so the wonders would be uncontested and you could build them in culture cities at your leisure. I got it after some AIs, so I had to offload two wonders (Versailles and Hagia Sophia) to non-cultural cities to make sure I didn't miss them.

I was employing what I've come to think of as the T-Hawk strategy here, bypassing Democracy and the top part of the Renaissance tree in order to reach Biology ASAP.

Funny thing is that here I beelined State Property instead of Biology. Actually, I've come to prioritize Biology less in recent games. I've gotten better at siting and managing cities to have strong food growth without too many farms. Ironically, the more fertile your land is, the less you need Biology, since you'll have more cottages and mines and fewer farms.

Democracy does usually get ignored, especially here when I had no need for the civics. It also requires Constitution, which is dead weight and best left for a cheap fill-in trade later. (If Representation was in a particular game plan, you already got it with the Pyramids.)

You're right that the base production is the key number to balance the three cities. The multipliers generate the final number, but in time the multipliers will level out across the three cities. One can fool oneself that settling a Great Artist into a city with +200% from four cathedrals is a better payoff than settling in a city with one cathedral. The latter city will get its cathedrals too soon enough.

I won't try to guess a winning score

How about "Everything"? Actually, our scoring results were just about the same, except that I did land the Great Lighthouse and Parthenon.

[BWardly]

Sirian had a reason for that in Civ 3 - to give players a chance to play with the F-15 since it never came up in normal games. By contrast, the Navy SEAL in Civ 4 is less of a novelty item. Also, the elite F-15 didn't take much actual effort, since it only needs one promotion after starting as veteran. By contrast, this game took an entire war's worth of effort to satisfy that goal, with the liability of a bad dice roll wiping it all out at any time. I did it, but I wasn't particularly satisfied with the goal or the execution; it felt like busy work. Crafting these scenario goals is harder to do well than it seems.

I would say that the Navy Seal points was a big bonus in my game.

After I had grown strong enough to dominate any opponent militarily, all I was doing was sitting back and waiting dozens of turns for cultural victory to kick in, while defending Germany in their last stand. Since Montezuma and Tokugawa were going to declare on me anyways, working on getting the Navy Seals up to that level added some fun into the proceedings. Getting 3 up to 20+ exp only to see them die in 85% and more odds...made me actually put some work into making sure I got one in time. I had fun dredging up crappy old units to suicide against my opponents to soften them up...and since I avoid playing America like the plague, this was my first widespread usage of Navy Seals. It was good to have something to do besides hit control-enter for the last few decades, so I think that scoring feature worked just fine in my game! Not every objective is going to be exciting to persue for every single person.

And even an early wonder is less than a single Great Artist.
Note the magnitude of the numbers at your checkpoints. Boston had 8000 culture at 1502 AD, and produced over 1000/turn in the endgame. The entire first four millennia of that city were equal to a mere EIGHT TURNS of end-game cultural production. That's how much culture production back-loads into the endgame. And that effect grows even larger when the culture slider is in play.

Parthenon once doubled = 20 culture per turn, as opposed to 12 per turn from a GA. Once the 300% or so kicks in, that's a difference of 24 additional culture per turn; hardly negligible. Cultural producing buildings after liberalism are few and far between, so having those base culture producing buildings in the early wonders, once multiplied, has a large effect. My Washington went legendary some 40 turns before my other two cities despite never settling or bombing any GAs there; solely because I concentrated wonders there too much early on.
Of course you can always cripple a city to load it up full of artist specialists to win without early wonders, but if you have the flexibility to do that to one of your main cities, then you could have easily won via a number of other paths. I haven't played any higher difficulty level culture games, but I suspect that to win via culture on emperor and above, a balanced strategy that includes early wonders is likely the strongest route.

[T-hawk]

there was a tile, 2W 1 N of Moscow, which showed as a "Flood Plains/Grassland" and produced 6 food when farmed (pre-Biology).

The map editor allows this, though the map scripts never generate it. Flood plains is not a type of terrain; it's an overlay that can go on any tile and gives +3 food. The map scripts only ever put a flood plain on a riverside desert tile. The flood plain is almost impossible to see when not riverside or on terrain other than desert, so it's easy to miss if you accidentally place one in the editor, or change a flood plains desert to grassland and forget to remove the flood plain.

[sooooo]

Well, another detailed and informative report from Sullla

Pretty impressive culture generation from those cities. I knew sistine artists and biology could compete with towns, but I didn't know they could get 950 CPT! Must have been all those wonders added in. I think sistine artists is a much safer way of getting a culture victory, as it allows you to keep up in military tech. Though safety isn't exactly what your average GOTM/HOF game is looking for, so they are dominated by the slider which gets quicker if riskier wins.

I could not play this one, but the reports are interesting to read so far. Looks like the aggressive AI option worked out nicely.

I had major plans for Seville: look at that terrain closely. All jungle aside from the two peaks, plus a couple of bonus food resources with the rice and bananas. This was the perfect location to set up a Great Artist factory!

I've come to dislike putting a GA factory outside the big 3 cities, since it "wastes" the culture that the artists specialists generate. Though possibly it was the correct choice in your game because you got that city quite late.

This is actually the fastest Cultural victory ever submitted in an RBCiv Epic/Adventure

IIRC, Compromise had an earlier one, possibly it was Epic 2.

[Sullla]

IIRC, Compromise had an earlier one, possibly it was Epic 2.

There were no Cultural victories in Epic Two. You're thinking of Epic Three, where Compromise submitted the only Cultural victory - which took place in 1842AD. I did recall that game, and it was very well played.

Be careful when questioning the professional historian, especially one who's spent the last two weeks doing nothing but compiling old results!

[Compromise]

There were no Cultural victories in Epic Two. You're thinking of Epic Three, where Compromise submitted the only Cultural victory - which took place in 1842AD. I did recall that game, and it was very well played.

Be careful when questioning the professional historian, especially one who's spent the last two weeks doing nothing but compiling old results!

Yes, don't question historians about the past. It's only the future they have trouble with. No Great Lighthouses?! But it's worth more than 3 civs surviving to the end of the game. How could you not prioritize it!

Seriously though, this was one *very* well run game. Brilliant work to get the c-victory so darn early.

(How on earth do you guys remember the results of past events?! I had to go look up Epic 3 to see what happened there. A large map? No wonder I went for a weird--with lots of hidden tiles--victory type.)

Edit: Aha! I wondered why so many of the AI capitals--especially those near the player--were so horrible! I'm always taken by surprise when there are map edits by the sponsor. Perfect for this scenario, of course.

[sooooo]

There were no Cultural victories in Epic Two. You're thinking of Epic Three, where Compromise submitted the only Cultural victory - which took place in 1842AD. I did recall that game, and it was very well played.

Be careful when questioning the professional historian, especially one who's spent the last two weeks doing nothing but compiling old results!

Lol, OK then I guess I DNRC. BTW, I question a professional historian every day (my fiancée!) and she's often wrong . Though, now you come to mention it, rarely about history.