Elite vs. Not-so-Elite

[Zed-F]

I've noticed that there has been a lot of posting on the Hellgate forums about the addition of Elite and Hardcore modes splitting the player base. I'm trying to figure out how likely this is to be a problem in our community. We probably aren't going to have so many players out of the gate that we can afford to split our character base up if we want multiplayer action amongst the group of us, without resorting to just tagging along with AB or something similar.

Elite Mode

<snip -- relevant bit being Elite is a 'mode'>

Hardcore

Hardcore mode takes away the various resurrection options. For the gamer that wants the ultimate test, try playing an Elite Hardcore character!

Note that both Elite and Hardcore are 'modes' and that it seems to be a kind of character that one can create rather than something that one can toggle on and off. (Going purely on the above description.)

Thus, I'm assuming that the way this is going to work is like open vs. ladder vs. hardcore in D2. The difference from D2 being, of course, that not everyone may be able to access 'ladder' or 'hardcore' due to their being subscription-only. Can anyone confirm whether this is correct? I get the impression some folks are worried about subscribers not being able to game with non-subscribers at all, which would be a serious concern.

In D2, most of us seem to play primarily ladder characters or hardcore characters, or some of each. I don't recall many games being open games. In HGL, things might be different if a certain percentage of the community can only access open games. If most people are willing to subscribe, is the group going to naturally evolve to primarily elite and hardcore games, once we've all gotten our feet wet in the normal 'kiddie-pool?' If most people are not willing to subscribe, will those of us who are feel a bit held back or find other subscribers to game with? Will our adoption of variants be enough to keep the group together in normal mode even as we look for additional challenge, or will people want to play elite variants and hardcore variants as well? What about access to elite-only zones and other content, how likely is this to matter with respect to splintering of our player base? Will it be as divisive as some folks missing out on certain x-packs was in GW? Maybe FSS will eventually throw us a bone and allow folks to pay a one-time fee to get Elite and Hardcore access, without having to subscribe? How likely is that?

Lots of questions. Since the answers will potentially impact our ability to game together, this might be worth thinking about and discussing earlier rather than later. I think our community can work with most people subscribing, or most people not subscribing. It might cause problems if we go half-and-half.

Personally, I am a bit torn. I don't like the heavily limited character slots in free play, but I can deal with it. I really don't like the divisive restrictions on play modes that makes it harder for communities to stay together when some subscribe and others don't. I also don't like the idea of a $10 monthly fee for a game I expect to play over the long term. I've played D2 for years and years, and subscription costs could really mount up over that period of time... but that might be setting the bar a bit high. I played GW from ~Jun 2005 to ~Jan 2007, or about 1.5 years. That'd be about the cost of a Founder's Subscription... assuming I 'need' to have a subscription in order to game with the folks I want to game with, at the challenge level we want to be gaming at. On the other hand, shelling out $200 (box+subscription) up front for an unproven game sticks a bit in the craw as well. Paying $10 for a single month's subscription every so often (or, if offered, buying bundled 'old elite' content) is an elegant solution to the content problem, but does little to address the split player-base problem.

So, I guess we as a group should consider, are most of us likely to subscribe, and want to play Elite / Hardcore games, or will we mostly be content with open play only until such time as FSS decides to open up Elite mode and Hardcore to non-subscribers, as a purchasable option or otherwise?

[Thecla]

It's pretty confusing, but here is how I understand it, though I can't guarantee it's 100% correct.

When a non-subscriber creates a character, there is only one choice: "Normal", say. That character can play through the game on Normal Difficulty, and then on Nightmare Difficulty, just like in Diablo. (There is speculation about a Hell Difficulty in HG:L, but I don't think it's confirmed one way or the other. Nightmare Difficulty was the only higher difficulty level in evidence in the beta, though very few people got to try it.)

As well as additional content, a double-sized stash, and 24 character slots (instead of a very measly 3 character slots), subscribers get two additional character types: "Elite" (tougher monsters from the start) and "Hardcore" (death is permanent). Each character type (plus the "Elite-Hardcore " combination) can play through the game on Normal and Nightmare difficulties, and each character type can only play or trade with other characters of the same type (e.g. Hardcore with Hardcore. Edit: but maybe Elite with Normal--who knows? ).

Normal subscriber characters can play freely with Normal non-subscriber characters, except in subscriber instances, and they can freely trade non-subscriber items with each other. So if there is a mix of subscribers and non-subscribers, they can definitely still play with each other (though not in Elite or Hardcore modes, obviously.)

If you subscribe and then stop, you lose the use of any subscriber items and get to choose in some way which of your 3 characters you can still play. The other characters and items are all saved and reactivated if you resubscribe.

You can't create multiple accounts on the same set of regional servers, but it sounds like one game key will allow you to create an account on both the North American and the European server, but those characters won't be able to interact with each other.

[Zed-F]

But the big question in my mind remains... if this is going to be a game supported by RB, what kinds of characters will most of us be most interested in, so we can plan games together? Are we mostly going to stick with normal characters for the foreseeable future? Or are we collectively going to want to move to elite and hardcore characters relatively quickly?

It's something we each have to decide for ourselves, but what other people plan to do certainly is a significant factor. Certainly we can plan events or team variants that cater to the lowest common denominator, but what about pick-up play? If we don't come to some sort of rough consensus in the not-too-distant future, we may wind up with half our membership focusing on building up their elite stable while the other half works their way through the 'normal' version of the game. Probably not the best situation.

It might be useful if everyone were to outline their current thoughts regarding subscription. Currently I'm thinking I would prefer to adopt a 'wait and see' approach. I would like to wait and see what elite content makes its way out of the closed elite club and into the hands of non-subscribers in one way or another, either as a separately purchasable download or as part of an expansion. I would like to see if an occasional one-month subscription would let me get what I want out of the elite world. I would like to wait and see just how engrossing HGL really continues to be after having played through it a couple of times on normal. So my current plan is not to subscribe immediately. But if enough other people are convinced that subscribing and focusing on elite characters is the way to go, I may be persuaded to change my mind and go another route.

[KingOfPain]

I think the answer to your question is another question, which will be answered a short time after release - is 3 characters slots enough? We will know in a couple of weeks after release if HGL is a game that we (for each of us) would like to play the next while. If the answer is yes, and surely there be variants, then 3 slots isn't enough so you need to be a subscriber. So, if we are planning variants, you pretty well want to be a subscriber if only for the extra slots.

I would sign up to be a subscriber right from the beginning since FFS said people who choose the Elite option right away would only have to start paying monthly fee after the first patch. That would be plenty of time to decide if I would remain a sub or go straight for the founders lifetime offer.

I would suggest those who doesn't have a pre-order and plan to buy the game anyway to grab a pre-order box. Afterall, it won't cost you more because the $5 they charge for the pre-order box goes toward your purchase. The founders lifetime accounts are only offered to pre-order owners.

Check your local stores and grab your pre-order. If you have problem getting one, I can check if my EB still have boxes left.


KoP

[Zed-F]

Picked up a pre-order yesterday morning.

Given that I am not afraid to delete a character I am done with, and can play SP characters if I want to give other professions a try, I think I can live with 3 slots (at least until they try to sell us more.) Obviously more would be better. Agreed that there's no need to make a hard call right away, but more info on what the group as a whole would like to do is still useful toward making that decision, IMHO.

[BeefontheBone]

If I don't have to pay for it until the first patch, I think I'll be starting out with Elite and a subscription, but it's going to have to be pretty darned special to make me shell out to play on a monthly basis.

[KingOfPain]

I forgot to mention one more thing that I don't like about HGL - KingOfPain is not allowed. Apparently, "Pain" is ok, but FSS has a problem with "King"

You know, I had this discussion at another forum over the limited slots for non-subs, and of course some fanboys had to rise up and defend FSS using the cost of upkeeping extra slot as an excuse. So now FSS turned around and give subs double the original projected 12, 4 time more than I had purpose to add to non-subs (for a total of 6 slots, one for each class). You just know FSS is using slots as one of their main sellling feature for subscriptions.

It just came to me, I think I have a nice solution for our (Snob) VS (SoB) concern. Now that subs get 24 slots (and I am betting they will add more later, or have plans to sell extra slots) I really don't mind dishing out a slot or 2 to other people, and or host a team variant. Sigh, I just have to find a cure for my packrat addiction

Likewise, since we have a community of trusted friends, 2, 3 or 4 people can get together and buy one founders account

Assuming the system works the same as Bnet and Anet.

What, you don't know what (Snob), (SoB) mean!?!?

KoP

[Thecla]

A few unconnected comments.

1) If it turns out that you want to play this game in any significant way, then I think you'll have to subscribe, one way or the other. (And I agree absolutely about the 3-slot non-subscription thing: if FSS were really serious about providing a playable, economy-class version of the game, they wouldn't have restricted non-subscribers to 3 character slots, even if they did offer them a bag of pretzels instead of a chicken sandwich.)

2) So really the questions are: Is HG:L worth playing or not ? And are you willing to play any game that requires a subscription, even if it's worth playing?

3) The HG:L non-subscriber/subscriber model does have the advantage that non-subscribers have the possibility to play with subscribers, so even occasional players are not completely excluded. If you stop playing frequently and cancel your subscription you can still jump back into the game without having to renew your subscription. If you get over your sudden urge to play the game, no harm done, and if you don't you can resubcribe and get back whatever you had before (though no doubt it will be horribly out of date). I actually think this is a big plus --- one thing about D2 (or GWs) vs. WoW was that if I got the urge to play a little D2 again I could just log back into battle.net and start a new character, but if I got the urge to play some WoW again, I wasn't going to renew my monthy subscription to do it.

4) For anyone that has a beta-key, FSS now has an HG:L test-server up to test the "Patch0" code which is supposed to go live on release. On the test-server you can create (subscriber only) "elite characters" with much tougher monsters, and I can highly recommend them. They also have some (surprise, surprise: subscriber only!) amusing Halloween easter eggs enabled on the test server.

[Zed-F]

Note that you have to have been granted 'subscriber privileges' on the test server in order to get access to elite characters. Not sure how that works but it's probably done by something like how long you've been a beta tester. That's where my Slacker Engineer is, currently having just opened up the path from Covent Gardens to Charing Cross, at clvl 9 with a Firefox launcher, a lightning gun, and a multiple rocket launcher.

Boss fights are starting to get tougher. Getting past the 'Survive' quest was a real pain until I figured out how to do it. Not sure if it's because I am underpowered or because I suck. So far I have not had to assign any skill or stat points, though I am using a couple skills at slvl1 picked up from equipment (currently drone 1, beacon 1, napalm strike 1) plus the starting inhibitor bots. We'll see if that continues to hold, or if I can afford to buy more gear to boost stats enough to keep upgrading weapons.

KoP, how's your naked engineer coming along?

[KingOfPain]

I have not been playing all that much. I am taking the in-between-games opportunity for autumn photography. NanoSkirt, my only "active" is almost lvl 9, next stop Charing Station.

Up until the museum she did ok. The boss pack, King Something, would be the first road block. They are fast, hard hitting, and self-res? Not sure, but I swear I had killed him more than 2 times. That is the first time NS used the swap weapon feature (from empty hands to some rocket launcher). Many deaths and in-and-out the portal to recast bots finally got her through the quest.

Keeping alive isn't as big a problem as not having enuf fire power from Construct Drone(lvl3) and Rocket Bot(lvl2). This is one of those roadblock that might require level 10 skills such as Gun Retrofit, from a naked engineer.

One more challenging aspect of HGL that I like, with smaller dungeons (than say GW) so far and monsters long memory (I couldn't shake them lose), it can get quite tough if you are under powered.

KoP