Bush Speaks to Canada

[Sirian]

Those of you from Canada, did you see the American President's speech today in Halifax? I'm interested in hearing your reactions to the speech, but chiefly from those who actually heard or witnessed the speech in its entirety (as opposed to reactions to soundbites).

- Sirian

[ShadowHM]

Those of you from Canada, did you see the American President's speech today in Halifax? I'm interested in hearing your reactions to the speech, but chiefly from those who actually heard or witnessed the speech in its entirety (as opposed to reactions to soundbites).

- Sirian

I am sorry, Sirian. I did not watch the speech.

On the topic of Bush's visit to Canada, I was surprised to see him address the topic of the continental missile defence plan and NORAD while here. Usually visiting heads of state stick to the 'official agenda' when addressing reporters, and that particular topic is a tricky one here, so it was not on that 'official agenda'. (I would not have been surprised at all had it been raised in private discussions with the Prime Minister, of course, but that is not my point.)

[Doc]

Tis a pity that our sound minded Canadian nieghbors didn't arrest him for war crimes, as some proposed to do should he set foot over the border.

[Kylearan]

Sorry for becoming off-topic here, but...

Tis a pity that our sound minded Canadian nieghbors didn't arrest him for war crimes, as some proposed to do should he set foot over the border.

Yesterday, it became public that the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) has filed a lawsuit against Rumsfeld and nine other members of the US administration, including George Tenet, accusing them of being responsible for war crimes in Abu Ghraib. And the CCR has filed suit where...? Here, in Germany! Because they say we have the best laws when dealing with international warcrimes...

I really had to laugh when our newspaper discussed in all seriousness that, in case the suit was accepted and the accused found guilty, we won't be able to arrest Rumsfeld when he visits Germany because he enjoys immunity, being a member of the US administration. So sorry Doc, I guess we also won't be able to help you there.

The CCR was not allowed to file the lawsuit in Den Haag, because the US don't accept the international court. But since 2002, Germany has a new law allowing us to deal even with crimes done by foreigners in foreign countries, at least for some kind of crimes like war crimes, genocide etc.
It is said that the Pentagon already has made plans how to invade Den Haag - I hope they are prepared to rescue Rumsfeld out of prison in Karlsruhe as well?

-Kylearan

P.S.: Just for the record: Since the new law is in effect, more than 20 lawsuits have been filed against high-ranking foreign politicians, for example Ariel Scharon. None has been accepted by the court.

[ShadowHM]

Those of you from Canada, did you see the American President's speech today in Halifax? I'm interested in hearing your reactions to the speech, but chiefly from those who actually heard or witnessed the speech in its entirety (as opposed to reactions to soundbites).

- Sirian

For those who missed it, the entirety of the speech can be found here:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/...41201.html

[Occhidiangela]

If Abu Gharib is a warcrime, I am a turtle. Some of our dear German friends, in this case, seem to have lost their sense of proportion.

There were how many folks baked in the ovens of Abu Gharib?

Right.

Occhi

[Thecla]

If Abu Gharib is a warcrime, I am a turtle. Some of our dear German friends, in this case, seem to have lost their sense of proportion.

There were how many folks baked in the ovens of Abu Gharib?

Right.

Occhi

Yup, that's a really convincing argument: "The US isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, and GWB isn't as bad as Adolph Hiltler." True enough, but you're setting rather low standards there don't you think, even allowing for your generally sympathetic feelings towards the old europe?

Murder, sodomy, torture in Abu Gharib were war crimes. And they weren't isolated incidents. They flowed directly from Bush administration policies that have 'disappeared' people (well maybe only a hundred or so, as far as we know, not that we do know, so hopefully that's not really so many) and held many others for years in Guantanomo with absolutley no legal recourse, and subjected them to mistreatment that was -- and indeed really was-- "tantamount to torture". These things are more appropriate to Stalinist Russia that what one would hope for from the US (though again, I quite agree that "the US is not as bad as Stalinist Russia" and also that "the US is not as bad as Pol Pot's Cambodia" -- so many good things to say about the current course of events).

Now there certainly seems to be a sizable group in the US that believes in the torture of suspected terrorists -- whether or not they're actually proven to be guilty of terrorism -- but IMO this hardly agrees with the ideals of a country that at least aspires to the pusuit of justice for every individual, whomever they are and whatever their origins.

Any claim that the US makes to moral decency is pretty much in tatters now -- no doubt not to you -- it's simply a policy of might makes right.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

If Abu Gharib is a warcrime, I am a turtle. Some of our dear German friends, in this case, seem to have lost their sense of proportion.

The CCR is an American organization, as far as I know, and they are representing four Iraqi citizens in this case. Additionally, it is 99.99% certain that the suit will be rejected by the German court, so I'm not sure what you're aiming at with your remark...?

FWIW, here's a link to the CCR's report about the case:

http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report....ontent=471


But I didn't want to discuss Abu Ghraib. Prompted by Doc's remark, I only wanted to share a silly anecdote that an otherwise excellent and respected newspaper over here had discussed in all seriousness the problems of arresting Donald Rumsfeld.


Prost!

-Kylearan

[Occhidiangela]

Yup, that's a really convincing argument: "The US isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, and GWB isn't as bad as Adolph Hiltler." True enough, but you're setting rather low standards there don't you think, even allowing for your generally sympathetic feelings towards the old europe?

Murder, sodomy, torture in Abu Gharib were war crimes. And they weren't isolated incidents. They flowed directly from Bush administration policies that have 'disappeared' people (well maybe only a hundred or so, as far as we know, not that we do know, so hopefully that's not really so many) and held many others for years in Guantanomo with absolutley no legal recourse, and subjected them to mistreatment that was -- and indeed really was-- "tantamount to torture". These things are more appropriate to Stalinist Russia that what one would hope for from the US (though again, I quite agree that "the US is not as bad as Stalinist Russia" and also that "the US is not as bad as Pol Pot's Cambodia" -- so many good things to say about the current course of events).

Now there certainly seems to be a sizable group in the US that believes in the torture of suspected terrorists -- whether or not they're actually proven to be guilty of terrorism -- but IMO this hardly agrees with the ideals of a country that at least aspires to the pusuit of justice for every individual, whomever they are and whatever their origins.

Any claim that the US makes to moral decency is pretty much in tatters now -- no doubt not to you -- it's simply a policy of might makes right.

My bad, used the wrong example.

Malmedy, where American POW's were gunned down my German Machine gun fire. That is a war crime. My Lai was a similar though different vignette.

While your idiot lawyers and media men are at it, they should see to it that every German on the NATO Military Committee and the Political Committee in NATO, by the way, are charged with war crimes, guilt by association, for the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999. If they don't, mayhap a clever Serb will pull that stunt. You Germans are all guilty, like it or not . . . or so the logic seems to be going over there in Deutschland. Hmmm, was it not Marx , a German, who came up with Communism . . . an illogical and unworkable system? I now begin to understand.

What you also forget is that in November, a year ago, it was the SEC DEF who initiated the investigation into reports that military discipline had been breached. His office ordered the investigation. (I am rather in the dark as to the interface of military and non military intel interface, however, and do not disagree with anyone who would suggest that more than one government agency should be taking disciplinary action.)

It was in self defense that those charged released the pictures they had taken: try to deflect blame, an old trick. Why am I not surprised that the world's easiest suckers for propaganda, Germans, fell for this one too?

There is still an American General at large who, funnily enough, keeps showing up not in uniform, complaining that she is a reserve and not responsible for what happened. Get some semblance of the facts straight. She needs to be held accountable. But you Germans have got no right, none. This is an American issue for Americans to settle.

As to the rest of your comments:

Murder? Evidence, please, or put a sock in it.

Sodomy? I think that is a workable charge, and is currently being addressed under the UCMJ You Germans can kindly butt out, thank you, just as you butted out of the war in general. PS: Sodomy is not a war crime, it is simply a crime, depending on jurisdiction.

Torture? Prove it. A picture of a guy on a chair is a picture, it is not proof. Piling naked men on top of each other and taking pictures is not turture, it is harrassment. If you have proof of torture, and can show that US authorities are not taking action to discipline the folks on site, please provide evidence. I am interested. I may not be seeing credible news that is worth taking a look at.

I am not sure if you understand the words you are using. Nor, methinks, do you want to. You do realize, of course, that the whole exercise is

POLITICS at its finest and smelliest? Right?

Occhi

[Thecla]

Murder? Evidence, please, or put a sock in it.

Since you don't think the Abu Gharib abuse -- or what is being done in Guantamo bay -- constitutes torture (and AFAIK the worst pictures from Abu Gharib were quietly rounded up and have never been released) I suppose you will not consider this, among other examples, to be murder either. And in regard to Abu Gharib specifically, according to Seymour Hersch

In November, Frederick wrote, an Iraqi prisoner under the control of what the Abu Ghraib guards called “O.G.A.,” or other government agencies—that is, the C.I.A. and its paramilitary employees—was brought to his unit for questioning. “They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away.” The dead Iraqi was never entered into the prison’s inmate-control system, Frederick recounted, “and therefore never had a number.”

POLITICS at its finest and smelliest? Right?

You're always quick to suggest that anyone who opposes the US invasion of Iraq, and its subsequent conduct there, doesn't know what they're talking about and does so for (biased and smelly) political reasons. But the bottom line is the Iraq war was dishonest, illegal, and unnecessary to begin with. It's been incredibly costly in lives, dollars, and the reputation of the US. It has made the world more dangerous, and guaranteed a plentiful supply of radical anti-US Islamisists for as far as the eye can see. The post-war occupation has been bungled by the US in a way that is unbelievable - Abu Ghraib being only one of the most flagrant and disasterous screw-ups (wasn't really the best way to 'win Iraqi hearts and minds' -- not much chance of that now, if there ever was). What a waste.

The US committed an act of total folly in invading Iraq -- especially with no apparent plan of what to do once it got there and the pre-war fantasies of the Bush administration didn't work out as anticipated (remember Wolfowitz assuring the House appropriations committee that Iraq could moreorless finance its own reconstruction?). No wonder Iraq has created such an enormous rift with countries like Canada, not to mention an enormous rift inside the US. It should.