Epic Twenty-four - Pax Americana - Now Open!

[Griselda]

This game won't open until Monday, but T-hawk wanted to make sure that information was available ahead of time so that everyone could look over the rules and scoring beforehand. We're hoping that any questions or rules clarifications can get asked before opening date, so that we're starting with as close to a level playing field as possible.

I did want to say that the Civ3 version of this game was a ton of fun. For me, it was right up there with some of the most memorable games that I played. I think that I still hold a grudge against my Blood Enemy.

So please, take a look at the game and rules, and post any questions that you have. Make sure to check back on opening night, too, to see if there are any updates.

[T-hawk]

Thanks, Gris! Here's hoping you can find time to enjoy this version of the game too.

Although I'm the sponsor, I'm also playing as a competitor, same as Sirian did with this Epic in Civ 3. The map is unedited and unspoiled, though I did playtest through a few openings until finding one I liked.

I selected the opponents, so for full disclosure that info should be made available to other competitors who want it. Seems this forum doesn't support spoiler tags, so you may click on this link.

Yes, it's on Normal speed despite being an Epic scenario. This is intentional; this game is way bigger than an Adventure, and 500 turns is still longer than most Epic speed games!

[Sullla]

Just also wanted to chime in here... T-Hawk and I spent a lot of time exchanging emails and hammering out the fine details of this game. You could be seeing the last "really big" Civ4 game that we undertake as a community here - pun intended! I would encourage as many of you as possible to give this one a shot. And start early, those Huge maps take a long time to play!

I intend to give this one a shot. Unfortunately, I'm going to be overseas for the next four months, and that means playing this game on my poor little laptop computer, which will probably explode in the later stages of the game. But I'll try and see how things work on the low graphical settings.

[Ruff_Hi]

Question re 'You may not give away cities'.

What about returning a city to the original owner that you acquired through flip or capture? Sometimes you get the option to 'keep, raze, return' - does returning count as giving away a city?

Comment: Sounds like an interesting game. The rules / scoring sound really well thought out and comprehensive. Darrelljs and I found this when we combined on a game - the back and forth email exchange really helped us iron out any issues.

I'll be playing this game and I will even disable BUG so that is isn't a shadow.

[timmy827]

@Sulla - umm, good luck! I had just convinced myself that I could wait ~6 months before replacing my old computer, and then this might persuade me. You don't want to know how many times I've hit the stupid "Windows" key, alt-tabbing out of Civ which crashes it with the memory-saving things on.

I will probably have rules questions later when I have time to read carefully. For now, I would like to suggest a modest bonus for the closest guess to T-hawk's in-game playing time (triple-digit hours, anyone? )

[TheArchduke]

Sounds big, might be wise to play a test game, because my experience with the late game is slim. About 2 games I reached the end of the tech tree (and didn´t go for the boring spaceship victory).

[ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF]

Looks interesting! I'll be playing on a laptop too Sullla, and one with no graphics card to boot.
It should be fine, though, with the graphics settings turned all the way down. Just make sure there is plenty of virtual memory available.

I have a couple of questions:

For a size >36 city to count as big, does it have to feed all of its citizens without corporate food, or just 36 of them? I assume settled Great Merchants are OK.

Are we allowed to bribe AI civs to make peace?

When in a common war with your Blood Brother, are you allowed to capture empty enemy cities without invasion penalties?

Is giving units to the AIs OK?

I think there is a typo in the first scoring example, -10% for having only 6 rivals left. Can you confirm this is wrong?

Global Warming is going to be a huge (somewhat random) pain in this game. Are we really not allowed to sabotage AIs' unhealthy buildings without invasion penalties?

edit:
The corporation penalty is only for branches owned at the end of the game, right?

[T-hawk]

Sullla, too bad your overseas trip isn't Korea, or you could just play in internet cafes.

Sometimes you get the option to 'keep, raze, return' - does returning count as giving away a city?

Returning a city at the moment you capture it (so it never comes into your possession) is OK. There are two chief purposes to the rule: so you can't keep alive a weak civ by gifting them cities, and so you can't give away an endangered city to avoid the auto-Blood Enemy clause. That said, I'm not sure why you'd ever want to give away points.

And Sirian deserves credit for the rules; this was his baby in Civ 3 and I just adjusted it for the current game.

might be wise to play a test game, because my experience with the late game is slim.

You want to play a huge map to 2050 AD twice? I think we all have little experience with the late game, which is part of the point of this scenario. I still haven't ever even promoted an air unit.

BTW Archduke, you need some credit for this concept too. I was inspired by the Great Artist rush in the Greatest Person game. Playing out that hefty 20-city land grab was quite enjoyable, and that turned my thoughts to trying it on a huge map just for fun, then to huge map Epic scenarios.

I would like to suggest a modest bonus for the closest guess to T-hawk's in-game playing time (triple-digit hours, anyone? )

Blew past that sometime last week in playtesting

[T-hawk]

For a size >36 city to count as big, does it have to feed all of its citizens without corporate food, or just 36 of them? I assume settled Great Merchants are OK.

Good point, ZPV. Feeding just 36 citizens before corp food is OK even if the city is bigger. Yes, settled Great Merchants are OK. (You can push one or two cities over the top with them, but can't systematically do it everywhere.)

Are we allowed to bribe AI civs to make peace? Is giving units to the AIs OK?

These go together, and are a very good point I overlooked. Collectively, these moves allow the player to rescue a losing civ without declaring hot war. Civ 3 didn't have these options so it's a new factor to consider. I could go either way on this. Any opinions?

I lean towards allowing the options. Thematically, both align very well with modern American foreign policy. Perhaps the target of a bought peace treaty or gifted military unit automatically becomes Blood Brother, to add an element of risk and opportunity cost?

When in a common war with your Blood Brother, are you allowed to capture empty enemy cities without invasion penalties?

No, though the rules don't quite say so, yes that's an invasion. More broadly, the point of the common war Blood Brother rules is to allow the player to ride Brother's coattails and poach territory with settlers from an AI-AI war. Sirian had a rather quirky fondness for doing that in Civ 3, and although it's harder to do with Civ 4's rules about borders and city placement, I've left the rules in here.

Yes, that's a scoring typo, forgot to correct that from the Civ 3 version. Should read "-10% for having only 4 rivals left." Um, I put that in on purpose to see if anyone would read closely enough to catch it. Yeah, that's the ticket. :rolleyes:

Global Warming is going to be a huge pain in this game. Are we really not allowed to sabotage AIs' unhealthy buildings without invasion penalties?

I didn't think of that, but I'd have to call that an invasion, yes. You're sabotaging important production facilities, not just unhealthiness. Global warming is one of those late game bits that we'll all learn about together here. I've actually never yet seen it myself.

The corporation penalty is only for branches owned at the end of the game, right?

Yes, since it can't really be administered otherwise. There does exist a loophole to use CivJewelers + CreateCon + AlumCo to rack up legendary culture, then replace them all with Mining Inc as your primary corp. Please use common sense and don't abuse that. The concept is clear: one primary corp and limited strategic use of others. If anyone can propose a cleaner or tighter way to write a rule along those lines, I'm all ears.

Note to Gris, I'll write up an explicit list of items to update in the info page by Monday when the game opens. :wink2:

[Griselda]

Good, then I won't have to worry about catching or missing each change as it comes along one by one.