Master of Orion 1 unofficial patch

[kyrub]

Don't tell me you don't see any difference between improving AI and changing the game rules.

And if you are speaking about the AI capable do new things... when it can use what you could from the beginning, it is not exactly modifying, no?
Just fair play.

[HyperSuperDuper]

The truth is that modifying the AI is modifying and in that sense the unifying factor between changing shield values and AI is that they both are modified, changed from the original values.

Game rules for the player are defined by the actions of the AI as well as other factors. If for example the AI always builds a superior fleet than the player, it in practice always forces the player to play in a certain way. It controls in what way the player can play much like any rules of a game.

So why not modify things other ways as well?

[kyrub]

Game rules for the player are defined by the actions of the AI

No. Game rules are shared, respected, used by all players. While your gameplay may be "defined" (what a sophisma btw) by the increased quality of your opponent, it surely does not constitute a change to the shared set of game rules.

In MoO, AI "cheats" the fair play rules by having the bonuses. But even this is a part of the game, you may always not give the advantage to the AI.

Example:
Playing chess means playing the old persian game with very precise modern rules.
Playing chess against Gari Kasparov will probably end up with you losing.
But you don't lose because the rules are different, but because your opponent is very good at playing it.
Kasparov may give you an advantage of "one figure less" (the same way we have AI bonuses in MoO). The game is modified by starting condition, but it is undeniably a chess game (although it could not be played at a tournament).

I decided to conserve the original rules in unique games I love for a long time.

[Doomk]

kyrub, any new years eve news or ETA for the next revision/version?

Also I have deep hope, that you'll also look into Master of Orion II (win version). There is the LordBrazen patch for bugs (for DOS version), but there is plenty space for the AI improvement also (as with the MoO I). And there are some lookings into MoO II with source'es in the net, so that should be easier to start. This is my wish for the coming new year
________
Motorcycle Tires

[kyrub]

kyrub, any new years eve news or ETA for the next revision/version?

I guess I am stuck in a nebula right now.
Next version is definitely going in the AI improvement direction. Spring 2011? Not closer than this. Sorry.

Also I have deep hope, that you'll also look into Master of Orion II (win version).

Too bad. You'll have to find yourself another -bow- target, Moo2 is none of my taste. The game's vast as MoM but it lacks its elegance and the stylistic coherence of MoO 1. On the other hand, that's only my personal view and there is a swarm of win-sharp MoO 2 fans buzzing all around, so it's definitely on the 'possible' side.

[Iovan]

What do you use to work on your patch?

The reason I ask is because I myself am a programmer and avid MoO player. I am interested in helping. I have played with your latest patch and love what you have done with it. Send me a PM if you are interested or don't care about me tackling any of it myself. More support couldn't hurt.

[SDragon]

I believe kyrub does only pure assembly language modifcation via Hex Editor. I've only recently started myself with another one of my favourite games (neither MoM or MoO since kyrub's already done a magnificent job), but I'll layout how I started and what programs I needed.

IDA Pro <- though IDA Pro 5 is free and does a great job on its own
DOSBox HEAVYDebug <- allows step-by-step debugging along with logging to file, etc.
Notepad ++ <- way better for loading huge text files (notepad takes minutes to load a 32 meg file while n++ takes seconds)
Lots and Lots of patience

If you're starting from scratch, you'll need to basically use the debug program to find the code segments you want and then search for the same code in IDA (but their addresses will probably be slightly off). Which is why I use my trusty Notepad++ to do quick searches through the code for similar instruction sets. Defining functions will take up most of your time along with comment insertion so you remember what the code does.

Unless someone like kyrub is kind enough to give you their project IDA file, which I believe he did for MoM. But after spending time with my own project IDA file, now I know why he treasures the hard work he put into it. I've spent 4 days with my project and have only touched 3% of the code doing only minor variable tweaks, forget about any type of AI code.

Assembly Language is something you touch once in University to understand CPU operations and then you never see again so it'll take some massive learning on your part, but if you have the time and dedication, I think it's worth it.

Cheers!

[Iovan]

Thanks for such an informative reply. Working in assembly doesn't sound very thrilling to me and I can see how it would slow work down. I knew it wasn't a simple process though so it doesn't surprise me.

I'll wait for kyrub to respond before I take any initiative. I'm used to compiling my own programs or debugging others with the actual source code, which is why my first post probably appeared rather clueless.

Anyway thanks for the reply and suggested ways of tackling it!

[kyrub]

Hi Iovan,

Thanks for offering help. Right now I am not working on MoO. The patch is more or less finished, although I had to put away a few features (the patch was bugged). So I have no need of help at the moment.

I have two projects on my mind:

1) When I restart (spring), I will try to improve the AI part of the code. The work on the AI is the most enjoyable part of the long decoding process (as SDragon rightly explained) so I'll probably code it by myself. On the other hand, if you would like to cooperate on the ideas for AI (not the coding itself), you're welcome. Yes, I know it is less exciting, but it is a serious offer nonetheless. The stress for AI should be on design and counter-design. I would like to conserve and to improve AI personnalities (diplomacy) as well, so here there will be more "creative thinking" necessary.

2) Later, I would like to try to improve the game and to add to its depth by modifying the content and adding several featrues. I dislike free modding. But even a conceptionnally perfect game like MoO lacks severely in certain departments. Some parts of the game are seriously under-developped or flawed: the trade (was changed from Star Lords version!), the torpedoes, the Guardian, the BC reserve, the ECMs and others. I will try to make the game richer in experience. Most importantly, I will remove the inequality between AI and human player (scouts hunting, missile dodging etc.).

For the second part, you could really help me with coding of some changes (weapon stats, ship stats etc.). I am not prepared to give out MoO disassembler material for common use. If you want to try the fun with IDA and to learn more about it, look for the MoM documentation on ILSE's download page. You'll get the idea.

[Iovan]

Yes I have read through this thread so I was expecting you to be focusing on AI. The AI in MoO is in need of work.

Instead of wasting effort working on it myself and since you are already so far along I will just wait until you restart work on it. I can understand how particular you are about the way it is handled. I will probably take a look around it in the way that SDragon suggested and then give you some ideas once you resume work. What you do with those ideas won't bother me too much. Making MoO as perfect as can be is what interests me.