Adv41 - Forbidden Fruits

[Pegasus]

Can I just apologise about the length of this. I had originally tried to get this on a website - but the site I had signed up to wasn't playing ball.

This is my first attempt at a RB Adventure game having read so many reports over the past years. For the record, I play most games at Normal difficulty which in this case would be Noble and have found either domination / space race victory very easy. I have recently upped the skill to Prince and found that I can achieve the same results. This game however, will be my first ever on Monarch level, and boy was I in for a surprise!

Traits

So, Ruff_Hi has given us 3 choices – great a conundrum before even the game starts!
We can have Isabella with the Organised/Protective traits, or Gandhi with the Philosophical/Industrious trait or Saladin with Creative/Charismatic trait.

Before we start on the game, I tried to brainstorm what Ruff_Hi was getting at here, and hopefully it will help me choose my Leader.

Isabella
Organised means 50% cheaper upkeep and you can get quicker lighthouses, factories and courthouses.
Protective means free promotions and extra faster production of walls and castles.

So I read into this that I could run the expensive civics cheaply (whatever they are) and REX my way to victory going for a peaceful domination victory building cheap libraries and courthouses. With Castles being the UB of Spain too surely I wouldn’t be in any financial trouble and can research at nigh on 100% all the way. With the protective traits, my defences should also be sound, leaving the AI’s to fight it out between them and fall behind in the tech race right?

Gandhi
Philosophical means faster production of GPP and cheaper Universities.
Industrious means 50% faster wonder production and double speed of Forges great for production.

I read into this that by taking Gandhi, I would be the wonder builder of the world, all I needed was some stone/marble close by and surely the wonders would be mine. If not, so what, I’m sure a SE city could churn out a fair few engineers to rush some wonders, and other GP to light bulb techs right?
Based on reading Sulla’s / Speaker’s Pitboss thread, I get the impression the Fast Worker might be pretty darn useful too!

Saladin
Creative means super fast border expansions and sealing off enemy territory fast. With the fast builds of Theatres / Libraries and Coliseums.
Charismatic means I don’t have to worry about my happy cap as much as the others, I can get quicker promotions through reduced XP requirements and even more happiness from Monuments and Broadcast Towers.

I read into this that the culture would play a powerful part in this leader, allowing me to aim for cultural victory or at least push borders close to opposing AI’s and then attacks would be easier.

In hindsight now, I think the Charismatic benefits may have reduced the whole playing level down to Prince.

So who did I go for?

My original thoughts were to take Gandhi as I am a proliferous Wonder whore. I do like my wonders and on those easier levels, they can sure be fairly easy to get. But I felt this whole site was about adapting and trying to play a different style and improving your game, so at the last I decided to decline this option as I knew I would just want to build wonders all the time and I felt in doing so I was going to get creamed by the AI. Also my skill at specialist economies is dire to say the least. Was this the right decision? Only time will tell. I sure am interested to see what others achieved with him.

Saladin gives me lots of opportunities to win through culture or conquest I felt. I don’t know why, but I felt he was more aggressive than the other two and in this game I did not fancy warring with the AI’s. As for cultural victory, I have never won one of these before and that sure would be great to do, but alas I felt this may be a step too far for me on Monarch.

So this leaves Isabella. Why you ask? Well I plan to build peacefully, tech up and win hopefully by diplomatic votes. I plan to grow, grow, grow and consume the land before the AI gets it all. It should be cheap, and I should be able to defend it fairly easy too with all the traits I have right? She also starts with Fishing and those resources on the coast looked like they were ripe for cashing in on. Have I been lured into a false sense of security?

And so there you have it, Isabella downloaded and my first RBAdventure awaits. But wait, there’s that Mod thingy I need too – darn, nearly forgot.

I load the Mod and start the saved game.



My scout reveals I could be on an Island but this is Fractal so maybe a small passage up to the North? It also reveals Grassland Hills Pigs. Warrior reveals very little. I wanted to work the sheep from the gate so I founded Madrid and forgone the defensive bonus of the hill. I set Madrid to build a WB and set research to Mining then Bronze Working. Worker out of the gate would be pretty useless with that tech set.

On turn 4 I pop my first set of goody huts. I receive 39 gold from the hut north of Madrid and a Map south of Madrid revealing the lay of the land.
There is certainly some appealing lands around both North and South of Madrid and my mind is already in overdrive on city placements. Between Gold and Corn looks like a nice place and far down south there is a food heaven city. The whip is already springing to mind here.
My units continue to explore, scout exploring the North whilst Warrior is wandering around the south but not to far away from Madrid.

On turn 7 I have noticed a nice city to the North that could act as a blockade if anything else is up there. Mining has also finished – onto BW.

Turns 8 to 10 were pretty much uneventful, just scouting around. Madrid grew to size 2 and WB finished. Set Build to worker to come in at same time as BW. A few goody huts were in the near vicinity.

Turn 11 resulted in an unexpected surprise.

A free tech – woohoo!!! One less for me to research and a prerequisite for Archery for my defence and Protective trait. Nice!

Turn 12 and Hinduism was FIDL. And I finally meet one of my neighbours from the North. Its Zara of Ethiopia.
I can’t really say I know much about this guy and in a weedy move continued playing rather than read up on the civ and his strengths / weaknesses. To be honest at time of writing this, I still have no idea. But hey, the fun is playing the game right?

Turn 13 resulted in Buddhism FIDL.

Nothing really eventful happened between Turn 14 and 19. My warrior was attacked by a few barb animals and I think my scout encountered a few in the north so a lot of turns were spent healing or exploring.

Turn 20 resulted in BW finishing and Archery started for Defence. I’ve already left my Capital defenceless for 20 turns and I am getting the +1 unhappiness from not having MP. Boy did I have difficulty with happiness in this game. My worker finished and I set him to chop away around Madrid. Madrid is set to Max growth and another WB is queued up. I also revolted to slavery.

I meet my second neighbour again from the north, but he must have come from the east as my scout is North West. Who could it be?


. I had recently read a strategy guide off the Civ Fanatics site that had terminology and abbreviations explained. I can’t remember who wrote it but it effectively was LOL = when Monte attacks you with his stack of Elephants against your Mech Infantry. How true is this!
Okay, so I was planning on a peaceful build, perhaps not so with this fellow around. Certainly makes my choice for Archery seem more viable now. Don’t need him getting any ideas.

Not much happened between turns 23 and 28, I had Madrid build another WB but every time my chops came in I swapped to another worker so that unit would get the hammers. Archery finished on turn 27, and the wheel commenced. Madrid grew to Size 3 on turn 26 too, and I actually whipped the WB on turn 28. 1 pop Madrid now down to size 2.

I meet another neighbour North East (Monte’s way) and it’s Mansa.

He is the founder of Hinduism. Boy what I would give for some of that religion to come my way at the moment.
I notice however he and Monte are annoyed with each other. Something tells me they may get it on sooner rather than later.

Over the next few turns Madrid finishes it’s worker and commences it’s Barracks which I also had queued up earlier.
Madrid grows back to size 3 but I am now at my happy limit.

Okay, I haven’t provided a map for quite a while so here is my first ever attempt at a dot map. I have no idea how some of you guys can get an entire continent to dotmap on one screenshot.


By turn 48 I have researched Pottery and a settler is close to Pink Dot. By turn 50 Barcelona is founded and my warrior is fortified in the city.

I meet Lizzie to the West around now too.

Turn 56 and Judaism is FIDL. Madrid builds Stonehenge. I wish I took a screenshot of this because maybe I would have noticed that this wonder now expires with Astronomy and not Calendar in BTS. Only realised that from reading other articles recently. Dohh!

I trade BW for Sailing with Mansa The only thing I can recall for doing this was to go for the Great Lighthouse which I didnt even bother for in the end.

By turn 75 Barcelona is at size 4 and Madrid is at size 3 and is building the Oracle. It is 1000BC

Ok I am going to try and summarise my first 3000 years and 75 turns.

I intended to REX my way to a win and so far I am well on my way to have built as many wonders as I have cities. So much for the short term plan! I think I have wrongly whipped and chopped my units / builds but I do think Madrid and Barcelona are in good stead for the future. I am not sure if I am being too hard on myself, but I expected to have at east my 3rd city south of Madrid and well on my way to my 4th, but perhaps I was being to defensively minded due to the level.

I think I have scouted the land well, but I could have and should have explored more. I think my tech choices have been ok so far as the resources around dictated. Could I have bee lined for Alphabet earlier at the expense of the land, I’m not sure. I’ve also read recently that the AI does not research Aesthetics too often and that I could negotiate a real good trade with that. Something again I did not capitalise on.

I’m fairly comfortable defensively and I am fairly certain. I have enough to cope with my time bomb next door Monte. As for Zara, he seems a nice guy and doesn’t look aggressive at all. Mansa is as expected way ahead in the tech race. At least 5 techs I noticed at one stage.

Overall, I think I am in a stable position to push on and dominate.

The Oracle came in on Turn 82 and I took Monarchy as the free tech for happiness. I did have a snapshot, but i'm sure you've all seen the Oracle.

The view of the globe on turn 99.


I use my first Great Prophet to start a Golden Age on turn 113 (50 BC). Masonry completes and CoL queued up next.

I get another Great Prophet on turn 116 and I merge him in with Madrid.

Madrid builds the Colossus on turn 124.
CoL also finishes. Machinery is then next in line to be researched. I think this may have been a bad tech to go for at this point.
Courthouses queued up everywhere.

Barcelona does finally get a religion – Judaism! Drat, my pal Monte is Hindi, so not converting yet.

I get the Pyramids on Turn 131. Again, I dont think you guys want to see a piccie of that. Although I do think this is a fairly decent wonder to have! I now switch civics to Representation / Caste System and Organised Religion. I’m not sure I really benefited from Caste System in this game as I don’t recall ever putting more than 2 specialists in each of the cities. I have always played with the intent of working as many tiles as possible before allocating specialists, based on reading other reports, this is probably not the way to go in order to generate all the great people they get. It also means that if you are not working the tiles you could place cities more closely together rather than aim for that perfect BFC non overlap issue, as your other city could work those tiles instead. Am I learning? Am I making the right conclusions here? I will probably find out in my other games. Either way, my GP generation can’t really get much worse than my current play style, where I rely solely on techs to provide me with them or wonders. That surely has to be suboptimal.

Toledo gets founded to the East of Madrid and Louis comes to the table to trade Metal Casting for Monotheism and Aesthetics.

A few turns later and I meet Catherine again to the east. As expected she not long afterwards comes demanding a free tech. I this instance it was Metal Casting. Which I eventually agreed to solely for relations. I found Santiago South of Madrid by the Gold and Corn . Madrid starts on the Hanging Gardens.

Barcelona finally gets me a Great Scientist and I have him build an Academy in Barcelona. Zara come to the table with a trade of Currency and 400 Gold for Machinery to which I also agree to.

Seville builds the Moai Statues on turn 146 and Elizabeth comes trading Literature and Gold for Metal Casting.

And here is the Spanish Empire by Turn 149.


Over the next few turns I research Engineering and Civil Service. I trade Engineering for Feudilism with Cathy and I get a Great Engineer in Madrid which I burn on Notre Dam for extra happiness.

I was having serious issues with happiness in this game and this would prove to be a blessing. Maybe I under utilised the Caste System and Slavery civics in this game and since playing this game and writing this report I have ploughed hours of forum readings into understanding the civics properly. I’m still no master but maybe with practice the penny will drop.

Apologies for the lack of pictures over the next 40+ turns I went into play game mode, which I was really trying not to fall into.
Research went Guilds > Education > Liberalism (Mansa pips me by 3 turns) > Drama > Printing Press > Nationalism
I did various trades too:
Cathy – Trade Compass and CS for Philosophy
Lizzie – Trade HBR and Music for Optics and then a few turns later CS and Drama for Banking
Mansa – Printing Press and Small Change for his Economics

In the mean time I go to war with a few Barb cities settled south of what I deemed MY land.

And the aftermath resulted in the lay of the land as follows:



Over the next 60 turns I commenced a peaceful build period trying to improve my infrastructure. Over this time Monte and Mansa came to blows.

I ended up researching Astronomy > Corporation > Military Tradition > Scientific Method > Replaceable Parts > Rifling and Biology

I got a Great Merchant in Madrid and I sent him to Timbukto for 2300 Gold.

Towards the end of turns I started to improve my military through production from Maygar / Santiago and Madrid.

On turn 280 I decided I wanted more land and declared war on my good friend Monte. He had the majority of his units fighting Mansa and I could see directly into his cities through espionage points.
The battle of Tlatelolco was over on the very next turn.

I took out Malinolco over the next few turns and razed it but I stopped taking notes and pictures at this point as I got so engrossed with my war with Monte.

By Turn 293 I managed to take his capital
Monte didn’t really have much more to give after the fall of Tenoch…..blahblah. He made peace with Mansa, only for Louis to come along and wipe Mansa off the face of the planet. I continued to pummel Monte until I had all his land and Cathy decided that Lizzie also wasn’t worthy of being on our planet.

Unfortunately, Louis had the same opinion of the Spanish and no sooner had he taken over Mansa (roughly at the same time as Spanish conquering Aztecs) Louis thought the land should have been his, and he had planes, lots of planes against my cavalry and tanks to which he beat to a pulp before sending in his SOD himself to which he had tons of units. I think when I checked the Power graph he had 4 time as much as me.

I knew by this point I was on a losing battle but I did manage to gift him a few of Montes cities for 10 turns of peace. I vowed to build up my army and take back that backstabbing Louis. I always felt there may have been a slight chance to do this. This of course directred my mind to one thing and one thing only. Luois was gonna pay!

Of course not long afterwards (within the 10 turns of peace), I see this.


What!!!

Hang on a minute, that means I’ve lost! Turn 376 too – surely not, how can this be?

So with all my war mongering last 100 turns I forgot to focus any attention on my other rivals and paid the price dearly. I antagonised a superior more powerful AI to come get me and left well alone a dominating AI who was well on there way to a cultural victory. I believe Monte settled on the East coast of Lizzie too and after I conquered it an Apolistic Palace decision to gift this city to Cathy went ahead too!

Aftermath

Ok so I have been to bed since then and picked my dummy up off the floor. My first game on Monarch and my first ever defeat in a Civ 4 game.
Granted I play on the easier levels and winning should be a foregone conclusion, but after the early start I thought I was well on my way to a win here. Even after the pummelling from Louis, I thought I might at least sneak a Space Race victory.
This loss certainly has made me aware that an AI can win a game just as quick as I can and that I have a lot to learn on these higher levels.

I have picture of demographics etc, but I dont want to overload this thread anymore than I have now. If you have read this far, i'd be impressed.

My end score was 4676 and the award of Warren Harding.

Conclusion

What can I take from this game? Well hopefully I have learned a few tricks and techniques in attempting this game even though maybe some of my moves were a little weedy. The amount of reading I have put into civics and great people and city specialisation between playing this game and writing the report has been immense. Switching to Caste System and only having 2 specialists in a city – not much point in that for starters.

I never really stuck to my plans in this game and I feel this really impacted my game. Was I right to go for the wonders, some of them yes but not probably all of them. And then there was this attempt to gain GP which was worse than useless I think. My city specialisation was better than I have ever played, which probably tells you about my ability at the moment, but even when I tried I seriously under focussed on military.

I didn’t feel overwhelmed at this level and in fact have started my own single player game on this level to prove to myself I can beat the AI at this level. I am also trying to put into practice articles I have read up on.

I just want to go back to Ruff_Hi’s requirements here:

1) Determine why Firaxis banned these traits for these leaders.
Well I am sure there are many reasons open for debate, I only hope my suggestions were not too stupid in their assumptions.
Did I make use of these to their full effect – well based on the outcome I think I probably did not, so I will be looking forward to reading the other reports.

2) Have Fun.
Despite this being my first loss, this had to be my most enjoyable game to date (Played about 25 games). Normally I play with no real plan or strategy. Go for virtually every wonder and just build up military and go to war with my neighbours all the time. If I start to suffer with War Weariness then I usually go for a diplo (usually have the population myself to vote myself winner) or space race victory.

3) Write a report.
Well here it is. I hope it wasn’t a too boring read.


I would just like to finish this report by thanking Ruff_Hi for coming up with a fun variant for a game.

Once again apologies for the length of this, any comments/criticisms on how to improve for future reporting will be greatly appreciated

[Ruff_Hi]

Thanks for the report. My suggestion regarding 'how' to report is to read some other reports to see how others do it (might also help to work out how NOT to report ) and work out your own style.

Interesting to see your last screenshot with Catherine taking out England, Louis taking out Mansa and Monty. Catherine in my game was spreading religions like no one's business - I think she had 5 in her cities by the end of the game. I was checking her for Cultural but she never started the push.

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Ow. Welcome to the Big Leagues.

Louis having the legs to drive westward was not good fortune at all.

[Square Leg]

I thought that Mansa would get a pummeling - but I didn't have Louis down as such a war-mongerer! Wow. Hard luck!

How did you see yourself winning this game? War against Louis proved to be tough andi imagine that Cathy was a beast - depends if she stopeed teching to persue culture - the AI will do that won't they?

You could have taken Zara out i'm sure - if you had peace from Louis. Not to be I guess!

Thanks for the report!

[meatbalz]

it's great that you decided to make this your first report despite this being a loss.

i think what hurt you most of all is that your expansion was far too slow. 6 cities, 2 of which in their infancy, 150 turns into the game is pretty slow: you left some prime city sites unclaimed too long.

just 70 turns after the turn 150 screenshot, salamanca is your second largest city, magyar is size 12 - yet neither of those had been built/captured in 800AD! those are strong locations you should have prioritised much earlier. murcia was the second spot on your 2600BC dotmap yet was also unclaimed as of 800AD... there's a spot 4 tiles W of madrid which would claim fish, 2 FPs + overlap with 2 of Madrid's FPs, allowing you to grow the cottages while Madrid works the resources - i would have tried to get that settled pretty early.

you got access to HR in turn 82 meaning you could (should) have turned madrid into an absolute monster - 4 food bonuses, floodplains to cottage... but it's only size 9 almost 70 turns later. and you mention you postponed CS (bureaucracy) until well after turn 150.

i also notice you built the pyramids on turn 131, 18 turns later your total pop is 34 and your 5th city is size 3 - not sure representation is that useful to you at that stage, especially having had access to HR for happiness for ~50 turns. probably less useful than the 2+ cities you could have had for the same price, especially considering the strong sites still available to you.

the late game is more difficult to comment on but your slow expansion probably didn't help - when you're running break-even @ 90% science in 1550AD it usually tells you one of two things:
a) you've run away with the game
b) you haven't expanded enough

you made the right move to seek to expand more but it turned out to be too late.

i think you deserve a lot of respect for taking the time to make a loss your first report, and hope you find the feedback useful.

[Pegasus]

Thanks for all the comments guys

Thanks for the report. My suggestion regarding 'how' to report is to read some other reports to see how others do it (might also help to work out how NOT to report ) and work out your own style.

I was hoping by presenting in greater detail I would get better feedback from you guys on where I went wrong. However, typing something like this took an eternity. I now realise it is probably suited for a CFC thread. I will certainly attempt to try and read more reports on here though to find a style.

Interesting to see your last screenshot with Catherine taking out England, Louis taking out Mansa and Monty. Catherine in my game was spreading religions like no one's business - I think she had 5 in her cities by the end of the game. I was checking her for Cultural but she never started the push.

Cathy had it quite bad for Lizzie throughout the game. I recall her even getting Monte involved at one point.

Ow. Welcome to the Big Leagues.

sums it up I think

How did you see yourself winning this game? War against Louis proved to be tough andi imagine that Cathy was a beast - depends if she stopeed teching to persue culture - the AI will do that won't they?

TBH I was probably in cloud cuckoo land but I did think I would manage a space race victory. Didn't even see the culture win coming - even 10 turns prior probably wouldnt have been enough to stop her.

it's great that you decided to make this your first report despite this being a loss.

Thanks. I decided once I signed up I would report win or lose. And already i'm getting good advice on improving my game, which is part of the reason I signed up.

Bring on the next one, I feel the penny has dropped in certain areas of my play now. I have a Monarch game with Frederick and I am way ahead in points/power in that game. And yes iI check the victory conditions quite often now too to stop any nasty Culture surprises.

[athlete4life10]

Just wanted to say congrats on your first [strike]loss[/strike] report! It sounds like you had fun. I as well posted a loss (or maybe an incomplete as I tend to not have time to finish, case in point - this game) so I applaud you for doing so.

It appears you have gotten great advice which is the #1 reason why I joined RB as well. The community here is extremely helpful! The only thing I could offer is that from experience I would also far too slow to expand. Or I would get uncomfortable about settling past 6 maybe 7 cities. It looks like from your turn 90 screenshot (400 BC - I think) that you only have 3 cities. In my attempt at this (which isn't finished) I was able to get to 7 (at 1AD) which I thought was well but I read another's report where they were at 9 by 1AD. Just goes to show when you focus on something you can make it happen.

Also you mentioned you didn't really follow any plan which will kill you in anything above Prince I think. I learnt this the hard way . Just take a moment and think about what's the most pressing need for your civ (expansion, infrastructure, military, wonder) and proceed down that route until something takes a higher priority. That's the best way I can put it I think. Hope something in there helps and thanks for reporting!

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I was hoping by presenting in greater detail I would get better feedback from you guys on where I went wrong.

Ah - that wasn't so clear (in fact, I had originally written some short thoughts, but then decided you hadn't solicited opinions).

If you want ideas for a "help me improve my play" report, you might look over The Everyone's Guide to Getting Advice.

Also you mentioned you didn't really follow any plan which will kill you in anything above Prince I think.

At higher levels, it even needs to be a good plan

A couple of notes: I think you really hurt yourself with your city placement and timing. Obviously the REX went out the window when you started chasing Shiny! but even on a non REX, 2 cities by 1000 BC, 2 more tiny ones by 400 BC is slow.

More importantly, while each of your placements has an obvious motivation, they don't really fit together well. Or more to the point, the noticeably suffer from the fact that after 100 turns you still hadn't founded the production monster to the south (Santiago, in your game, though you will have noticed it is placed elsewhere in other games depending on what people were doing). Early hammers in a central location can cure a lot of ills.

Also, I'd suggest reviewing the other dotmaps - I think you'll find the other games made more efficient use of the lands south of Madrid (in particular, consider both the number of cities, and the amount of food that went unused). So take a look, decide if you agree, then see if you can work out what other players were considering that you did not, and finally whether you want to adopt those ideas in the future.

[Square Leg]

The best piece of advice is to look at your early game in more detail and base it around a pre defined plan. On Monarch and above this is key to success since the AI get a nice boost in every department!

Analyse the situation before acting on impulse but don't be afraid to take risks. It is really important to have used you early hammers and food wisely so that once commerce, war, culture etc... become more important, you are in great shape to exploit them.

City placement is key - scout your map and plan ahead with city placements thinking what each site can specialise in. Your gamestyle, plan and the map will all prioritise which types of cities your build but I would recommend that your first 2 cities are generally a commerce city and a military/hammer city/settler/worker pump. Often the capital can do everything early game. Don't be afraid to chop early workers and settlers out a few turns earlier, this can make a real difference as the effects snowball as time goes on.

VoiceOfUnreason: A couple of notes: I think you really hurt yourself with your city placement and timing. Obviously the REX went out the window when you started chasing Shiny! but even on a non REX, 2 cities by 1000 BC, 2 more tiny ones by 400 BC is slow.

This is slow - In this game (I was India mind) I had 9 cities by 1AD.

Remember though - FOOD IS KEY. Without food your hammer city can't work mines, your commerce city can't work cottages/run specialists and the whip is't as effective! If food is tight, try overlapping cities on high yield tile so they can "share"the tile. That way one can grow and then level out on other tiles (2f cottages for example) while the other borrows the food to do the same.

I hope this goes someway to helping!