Adv 41 - The Indian Empire of Nine Cities

[Olodune]

Adventure 41 – Forbidden Fruits

So this is a straightforward Monarch game, modded to include the three missing trait combinations from Beyond the Sword.

As others have mentioned in the forums, the only potentially broken combination is Philosophical + Industrious. The fact that we also get to play around with India’s fast worker, means that this is the one I’m going to pick.

I’m fairly certain the “broken” aspect of this combo is the feedback between cheap wonders and the extra GPPs that these provide. But what victory condition combines well with a wonderspam opening (in a sandbox game)? Space is all about grabbing massive tracts of land and getting Democracy early for Emancipation. Domination and Conquest rely on military and technology, not wonders. Ok, this one will be a Culture game then.

Strangely, I have only played a single previous Culture game – and that was back in Vanilla before I had any idea of how to micromanage this victory condition. Reading RB reports (Especially T-Hawk’s games) does mean I know how the basic pieces are supposed to fit together, even if I haven’t actually put the puzzle together myself.

I will need one or two cities dedicated to early wonders, a farm for great artists, and possibly a cottage spammed city or two to run slider commerce through.

So the start:



Well, this is not quite what I’m looking for. Tons of food, but low tile based production, so lets set the settler a wandering …



That’s much more to my liking! Two strong food sources will provide fast growth and there are plenty of hills for hammering on wonders. The settler will even get a plains hill production bonus in the city center.

The starting location was so strong that my first settler goes back up to grab all that food:



Some scouting shows that we have a peninsula to ourselves that probably has all the space I will need for nine cities, so my core can focus on vertical development for now.

Since we’re industrious getting metal casting with the Oracle is almost always a good move in a builder game.



Interestingly, I have not researched Fishing or Animal Husbandry by turn 50. By moving inland I could instead focus on Fast Worker powered chopping to get the Indian Empire a head start in production.

The location of the third city is dictated by the presence of stone.



By 950bc the game seems more like a display of the broken synergy between Industrious and Fast Workers, rather than Philosophical:



Delhi has used the stone to build the Great Wall and the Pyramids. Bombay has the Oracle and is a few turns way from whipping the Great Lighthouse. My first GP (a priest) has been born. This is where philosophical starts to shine – despite running minimal specialists I still get a GP by ~1000bc, that can be immediately settled for a surplus of 2 hammers, 5 gold, and 3 beakers! Synergy at work.

The fourth city is a weak city settled to get Silver and Marble in the first ring. Our little peninsula is ideal for an industrious civilization with Marble and Stone as well as two of the precious metals.



Varanasi will start out as a weak city, but is tagged to be my third Legendary city. Insta-building a wonder (the only one which I don’t have the booster resource) will start the cultural crawl:



By 1ad the Indian Empire is in a solid position despite having only seven cities:



Delhi has been busy, adding the Schwedagon Paya, The Great Library, and the Mausoleum of Maussollos to its collection:



What is more surprising is the wonder building abilities of Bombay:



Varanasi still has some catching up to do …



I went back and forth about whether to stop teching at Liberalism or to keep going to Democracy. I chose the later:



I actually would spend four more turns teching: 1 to pick up Compass for a harbor in Bombay and 3 to get the free GM at Economics (after backfilling the pre-reqs).

So now I get to build some Cathedrals (I will build three in each of the target cities), turn on the culture slider and ….



Two turns later and the other cities have crossed the finish line too:



By the end each city was producing 960 (Delhi) –> 1070 (Varanasi) culture per turn.



This was a fun, quick, builder game. I think the 1535ad victory stacks up fairly well and shows some of the best of the Ind/Phi combo. Thanks for the game Ruff.

After several “gentle adventures” I hope the next RB game is challenging.

[Ruff_Hi]

Wow - that looked like a walk in the park. Well done on moving your settler and finding a hammer rich site.

Thanks for the report.

[T-hawk]

1535 AD is amazing. I haven't come close to that for culture except in artificial-start games. I'd like to see more detail about your Great Person production. How many Artists did you get? What did you lightbulb towards Liberalism and Democracy? Yes, making the first GP a settled Prophet is very strong, especially with Representation. 2 hammers and 8 economy - it takes dozens of turns to get a single new CITY producing that.

Good call on moving the starting settler. Industrious wanted a high hammer start. Philosophical wants food, but Ind-Phi would rather build wonders than hire specialists. I moved to the same spot with the same logic, to different ends.

The pigs hill at Bombay looks mined? Interesting thought, but that trades 3 food for 2 hammers; even on a wonder, the whip can trade 3:3.

[Olodune]

1535 AD is amazing. I haven't come close to that for culture except in artificial-start games. I'd like to see more detail about your Great Person production. How many Artists did you get? What did you lightbulb towards Liberalism and Democracy?

The final GP tally was:

6 G. Artists (1 from Music)
4 G. Prophet
3 G. Sci
3 G. Eng
3 G. Merch (1 from Econ)
1 G. Spy (grrr! my second GP too)
20 total

Before 1AD I settled a GPr, GE, GSpy in Delhi and had a GM on the way. I also used a GE on the Statue of Zeus in Varanasi.

I used a single GSci to bulb part of Education. The other two built academies: a useful one in Delhi, and a late game dud in Varanasi.

The third GE was used for a partial build of the SoL.

Settled in Bombay: 1 GA

Settled in Varan: 2GA and a GM (late)

Golden Ages: Taj, GPr, GPr + GM

Three culture works: either two in Varanasi and one in Bombay or the other way around.

I also built the Taoist shrine in Varanasi -- culturally a decent option.

Because I didn't know what I would get I couldn't really plan for any specific GPs. I did have plenty of them for a 217t game

The pigs hill at Bombay looks mined? Interesting thought, but that trades 3 food for 2 hammers; even on a wonder, the whip can trade 3:3.

Yeah. Those pigs were mined before I had AH (I also farmed the sheep). For a while I was a little short of Worker-Turns and Bombay was so food rich that I probably delayed pasturing a little too long.

Despite the fast finish I made a few blunders. Some of the ones that I'm aware of:

- I built a monument in Bombay even though the Oracle finished before the first border pop. I'm pretty sure 30 early game hammers aren't worth a 1-turn faster border expansion

- I was generating too much gold at the end, one of the 6 helper cities should have been configured as a back-up artist farm.

- I switched to FR fairly early for happiness (since I had the S. Paya), then never switched out. I think it would be worth the anarchy to switch to Pacifism+Any State Rel (for the Sistine Culture on religious buildings) One reason why I hesitated is that I didn't get Monty's Buddhism until very late (~1300ad). Since I only built 14 military units the entire game (7 of which were warriors) I wasn't in a position to antagonize the Aztecs.

So I bet you would have beat my time on this map; <1500 is certainly doable

I'll attach the end save if you want to check it out.

[Square Leg]

Great game!

Enjoyed the read! I must learn to only do the necessary when playing cultural games. I often get carried away with little sub-plots - building too much military, focusing on the wrong buildings etc...

Your game was very clinical - not everywhere as you have pointed out - but generally speaking!

The final GP tally was:

6 G. Artists (1 from Music)
4 G. Prophet
3 G. Sci
3 G. Eng
3 G. Merch (1 from Econ)
1 G. Spy (grrr! my second GP too)
20 total

I'll see how many I generated tonight... I think I had more artists in the end but not more overall... (Didn't get a G. Spy though! :neenernee )

[T-hawk]

Ok, I looked at your save. Very impressive indeed. You didn't even have time to make use of your five religions, the culture cities only have three cathedrals each. You finished that fast with no Pacifism and half of Sistine? How do you reach sizes 21/23/20 by turn 217? And how the ding-dong do you get Varanasi to grow 13 towns in just 117 turns from its founding? - while also building a full slate of cathedrals and Hermitage? - and not Emancipation since you're still in Caste?

I see how you developed the side cities. Mostly leveled off at medium size working only the best tiles with excess food going to merchants. Not a cottage in sight, all farms and workshops to build temples. Workshops that happen to get the Caste boost which a culture victory is naturally in anyway. I have a lot to learn here.

[VoiceOfUnreason]

And how the ding-dong do you get Varanasi to grow 13 towns in just 117 turns from its founding? - while also building a full slate of cathedrals and Hermitage? - and not Emancipation since you're still in Caste?

A quick check shows that he was in Emancipation - very briefly. I love the entire line of play in that city.

[Olodune]

As I'm sure you know the key for commerce cities is a gentle hand with the whip (I think I whipped Varanasi once for 1-2 pop shortly after 1ad -- but I may have whipped a Granary as well).

Using it's great food surplus (+1 farm; +4 pigs; +2 clams; +2 city center) by turn 142 Varanasi is already working most of its tiles:



Clearly the infrastructure is barely developed, but that's fine for now. I have two villages, but the others are not far behind. Before turning on the culture slider, but after finishing Democracy, I did enter a period of Gold->Rush-Buy for temples (every hammer poor city) and cathedrals (Varanasi). As VoU saw I also was in Emancipation for ~10 turns, though I still think that was probably a mistake.

Anyways, by turn 176 the infrastructure is (nearly) complete, and I've turned on the culture slider:



The (lucky) AP hammers have provided a very nice boost too. The fact that both the screenshots are in Golden Ages in not entirely coincidence-- with the MoM and Taj, I'll have had 36 GA-turns during the key tech/infrastructure phase of the game

And just to take a quick peek at how the AI was doing in the game, check out this tech snapshot from t142, 640AD (I already have Education, Nationalism, and I am 4 turns from Constitution):



I think stealing all the economic wonders puts a big dent into their tech rate.