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darrelljs

Errr...second. Jesus regoarrarr loves to post.

Darrell

Krill · April 3rd, 2011, 15:12

He is a spammer.

Darrell, I think you need to post the trash talk that was happening between you and regoarrarr...

darrelljs · April 3rd, 2011, 15:15

Okay, so I will post the chat logs with Krill later so you can get the full discussion, but I really do have to go see what crap my kids broke before my wife gets home. Briefly, my leader order was Pacal -> Liz -> Willem -> Mansa. I got my second leader with the fourth pick, probably because 2 and 3 went with civs? I was able to get my top civ in Egypt.

I'll go into more details when I post the chat with Krill on the "why", and also an analysis of the other players' choices. Tomorrow smile

. I think this map will take a while to make, and I'll have plenty of time to post my thoughts.

Oh, and as everyone knows regoarrarr is a thread post spam whore. Please post as many random things as you can think of in the next 12 hours to make him feel like the small, pathetic wretch we all know he is smile

.

Darrell

darrelljs · April 3rd, 2011, 15:16

Krill Wrote:Darrell, I think you need to post the trash talk that was happening between you and regoarrarr...

Yes definitely...but of course that will get its own post.

Darrell

Krill · April 3rd, 2011, 15:23

This was the chat today, it basically goes over everything that we've talked about for the past few days as well, and gives a few hints about hte trash talk that has been going on in the background...

Krill · April 3rd, 2011, 16:12

So let's go through the choices:

StM: Pacal of Ottomans

Obvious first choice, even if it was also obvious Inca wouldn't be around on the way back. Ottomans I'm always against, but here they kinda make sense.

nospace: Sury of India.

Why India, on an island map (and regardless of what they say, this is going to be an island map if it is on small, simply because of lack of land). Why pick India when you only have about 100 tiles to improve? Surry I think they picked when they chose India simply because no one else was likely to pick it (no synergy between Sury and Inca).

regoarrarr/Cyneheard: Bismark of Inca

Inca on the way down...again, why? someone else would likely pick it to annoy StM, you are the second guy picking Myst (so religion is annoying choice for both of you) and Bismark, well, Bismark I can see for EXP, but no Fin on an islands map? Ouchie.

Darrell/Krill: Lizzie of Egypt. OK, Lizzie is not the fastest starter, but no one has really used both Fin and Phi well at the same time, and on an islands map, it is going to mean the most efficiency from limited resources (and a high resource map should give us a fast enough start anyway). Egypt means that we can go either Academy or Shrine first...and we can always go for Mono for a religion, and if we miss that we'll get Theo first for sure.

Kyan/TT: Willem of Dutch.

Best choice given options IMO. Fast starting civ and just needs to get to Galleons, then he should be able to defend to get to dikes or invade someone with help. Kyan said it was boring, but really, I disagree. I like it.

Krill · April 3rd, 2011, 16:30

Greater detail, lets go down as everything is picked:

Pacal: obvious, for fast expansion and faster tech given limited opportunities for others to choke and slow you down.

India: WTF? On an islands map? Have the others actually looked at how much land there is going to be on a small map? Gives Mining/Myst, so AH start is bad and says to everyone else to be careful if you plan on early religion.

Inca: Why pick Inca this early? It gives you the only Agri/Myst pair in the game, so clouds the early religion choice even more so (no way to tech religion at start and be sure you'll get it). Doesn't need to be paired with EXP for a good performance, you'll still save 20 hammers on monuments, but there won't be many good FIN leaders left IMO

Lizzie: Fin was decided as a must due to high levels of coast line expected in this game, and EXP had gone. PHI also allows early options for bulbing, academy, or possible priest for shrine for horizontal growth.

Willem of Dutch: Decent choice, early game safety, Fishing is bad, but Agri is best starting tech as Myst is no longer wanted and Hunting is of questionable value with known limits to scouting. Dutch will be useful when wars are expected to heat up (early astro) and Dikes are the obvious OP UB, but EIM should defend you to get there better than the other civ choices.

Lizzie of Egypt: allows for early priests. Plan is to get Mono first, if that fails to bulb to Theo for religion. Simply put, steal a bit of the Egyptian PB3 plan and adjust for NTT game, but Fin should allow for tech ability (and we'll do something sane this game).

Bismark of Inca: So decides against FIN. Only IND in game so far, so there are options (Henge is out, obviously), Oracle to MC for Collosus and cheap forges, GLH which we will blockade in this game, HG etc etc. But no fin to tech to the later wonders fast, no Phi for bulbing. Going to have to leverage their traits to stay up in the game IMO, but they do have the skill and MM knowledge to do that. Got to hope that Astro falls late so they can make as much use out of the Collosus as possible if they do go that way.

Sury of India: Expand as fast as possible and work more cottages sooner than the rest. It'll work, too, they are good enough at doing that. Probably ignore early religion, get agri and focus 100% on growth.

Pacal of Ottomans: The leader won't synergise with any civ, most UU are fairly useless, so pick on the UB, and starting techs, and The Wheel and Agri are probably the best pair if you want a fairly usable UB for this game (otherwise China), but 2 free happy on a building you aren't likely to build if it is a lush map? Not a great idea IMO. And the UU probably won't get a look in unless the game devolves into an early Astro and fight for your life game, which admittedly, it might, if they team up with Willem of Dutch.

They are all viable, looking at it, but I think I'd most like to play Lizzie of Egypt, followed by Pacal. I can see this game being a real good tech racing game.

darrelljs · April 4th, 2011, 05:52

Okay, first off some of the trash talking highlights between myself and regoarrarr.

Quote:me: hurry up and pick
I need to see if I have to find a 4th leader
Dan: oh is it up to me?
me: yeah
pacal is off teh board
you are up
go pick someone
Dan: who we got here
lessee
i'm 3rd
gotta wait for novice
me: well tell me your top two so I can figure out if I need to plan for a 4th
it won't affect anything
Dan: let's think
hmm
hmm
Dan: NAHHHHHHHHHHHH
me: you are so untrusting

Then at 4:34 we have this:

Quote:Dan: krill's your lurker?
me: Yeah, he's my lurker
Why?
YOu think that's a mistake?
Dan: nah

Followed by this:

Cyneheard Wrote:And I'm checking in as Rego's Dead Lurker.

Then this:

Quote:me: how much will you give me not to tell cyneheard he was your backup choice?
Dan: who was my first choice?
me: Again, you insult my intelligecne
This isn't even pointing 2 and 2 together. There's just 2.

I was feeling pretty good about how things were going already smile

. Unfortunately, I should have really logged off at this point, because the situation rapidly degenerated:

Quote:Dan: i pointed out that we have the 4 original players of pbem5 and pbem5 (the copy)
1 winner each
me: Yes, that's quite ture
Dan: too bad your winner's on the back seat...
me: Too bad I'm going to try hader this time :P
Dan: yes i'm looking forward to the every turn post

And:

Quote:Dan: yeah
i hope stm picks a crappy civ
i'm looking forward to giving him a beatdown after pbem8
i mean you, i've already given you a beatdown
me: I think I'm going to have to request we enforce the no out-of-game contact before in-game contact if you keep it up.
Dan: lol
me: I am at a severe disadvatnage, having died spectacularly

My "dedicated" lurker was of little help; when I asked for help coming up with a snappy reply I got:

Quote:Krill: Tell him I couldn't think of a reply to that, because I've never had to

Darrell

Square Leg · April 4th, 2011, 06:07

darrelljs Wrote:My "dedicated" lurker was of little help; when I asked for help coming up with a snappy reply I got:
Darrell

Hee hee. Thanks for posting that chat Darrell! I enjoyed it muchly! Especially the last bit. wink

darrelljs · April 4th, 2011, 06:22

Now some commentary on my real time chat with Krill during the selection process. It started off like this:

Quote:me: I think Huayna Capac of Scandinavia might be fun
Krill: ugh

I can relate to Bush. Having Dick Cheney as VP certainly comes with strings attached, but really, if there is an evil genius lying around best to put it to use. After that, we got down to brass tax:

Quote:me: I predict one of my top 3 will be available
Krill: top three are?
pacal, Willem, Liz?
me: Liz, Willem
yes
Next best FIN leaders IMO are Huayna and Mansa, at least in a builder game

One thing we both agreed on, is that FIN was a very important trait for this map. While we were debating the merits of the various leaders, the next two players selected civilizations instead yikes

.

Quote: me: wow
check out the second pick
Krill: IOndia
novice told me in chat
me: I have no issue with that
Krill: makes me happy, now you can't commit civ suicide
me: :P

and:

Quote:me: they are stronger on a land map, I think they extend the ability to strike with surprise
uh
wow
another civ down
Krill: hahahaha
Lizzie it is
me: So it is

Now it was time to zero in on the civ. I initially wanted to go for an early relgion, but both civs taken stated with Mysticism (in fact Inca had Agr/Myst which is what I really wanted), so I knew I was going to get my second leader at the fourth pick. I certainly wanted Agriculture in case I had a strong AH resource. Fishing was weak as the capital would be inland. I liked Hunting as scouting is such a big deal, but as Krill pointed out with no huts and a limted area to scout, this was also not a top tech. Here is a snippet of our chat from before Pacal was selected:

Quote:me: if I get willem, inca makes little sense
liz of inca
hmm
fast shrine
cutlure from religion and terrace is redundant though
Krill: you'd have difficulty getting that shrine
me: liz of egypt
Krill: that is fast shrine but no myst

Which lead to the beginnings of a plan:

Quote:me: I think if liz falls in my lap I will go for egypt
damn
they start with wheel/agr
not myst
Krill: however
easy to get cottages
me: quite true
Krill: tech to mono
get the obelisk out fast in second city, grow to size 3 or 4
...
Krill: if you lose hte religion race you can still bulb theo

Before settling on Egypt I wanted to run down the contenders one last time (Krill's comments snipped for conciseness):

Quote:me: Okay, so the options I think are worth considering are in no particular order Arabia, Carthage, Dutch, Egypt, Korea, Viking. Okay that was alphabetical order.
Let's see what reaons I can come up with not to take them.
me: Arabia is nice, I really like the Madrassa with PHI, but too tough on the religion and no Agr anyway so I can't start with it.
me:Carthage is actually okay I guess, except I think everyone will freeze me out if I build lots of Cothons. I am assumign people are going to pay attention in this game, the list of players is fairly decent.
me:Dutch...actually I really like the Dike. Fishing and Agr are good starting techs. East Indiaman really dominates until Frigates.
Dutch are a possibility but they are not a good econ civ
And econ feels like the key for this game
The bonuses are late as well
Really late
So Dutch are out
me:Egypt doesn't really have much of a downside if I don;'t plan on rushing a relgion,
War Chariots are of no value
me: Korea is pretty good, I like the Seowon a lot. NO Agr and again mysticism is of dubious value
me: Viking...man I think trading posts are reallly great in this game
beserker is iffy, it depends on how tight the map is really
starting techs are shite
me:It really is Carthage, Egypt, or Viking I guess.

The nice thing about Egypt is you have a UB that really shines with PHI, and the map really shines with FIN. There is better overall game synergy with Liz of Egypt, it should be quite a fun combo to play smile

.

Darrell

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