[Spoilers] GES, Roland & Friends (Mansa of Egypt)

[Gold Ergo Sum]

[Roland]

D'awwww.... I love the title! It's like Sesame Street! :neenernee

So... yeah. This should be interesting. I don't have much more to say, other than I hope I don't drag us down.

[scooter]

Yet another dedicated [strike]spammer[/strike] lurker checking in. I just need to hope GES isn't still bitter that I twisted his arm into taking Egypt instead of the Ottomans.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Longish chat with scooter regarding leader selection:

scooter: looks like you may have yourself a train full of ded-lurkers

me: Well, I would love to have some useful, expeienced players around to tell me to build more workers/settlers

scooter: i am certainly capable of nagging you about workers and settlers

me: Which means, my first choice leader of leader would be Asoka
Sorry, Mansa

scooter: ahhh ok
makes sense

me: I like SPI a lot
and want to practice leveraging it

scooter: hatshepsut would be very strong as well
spi/cre

me: Who is CRE/PHI?

scooter: yeah, spi was always a trait i didnt try nearly enough
but i'm really liking it in pbem14
pericles?
yeah, pericles
basiccally the early academy civ
which... i think you should avoid if you have a tendency to look at gnp too much
as krill would like to tell you - an early academy is useless if you run a low slider... and if you are expanding properly, you will be running a low slider

me: Yeah, Pericles
Well, CRE is good in the begining, and PHI shines late
Which would be the value of that leader
It sounds like they are only using Prince, so Organized is totally nerfed, unless you could guarantee being FIN/ORG HRE

scooter: i think you should ignore org and ind
rarely see those work out for people

me: Yeah, that is my general inclination as well
If they put stone/marble on the map it fucks IND too much
PBEM11 has both

scooter: basically, i think the best choice is pick one of fin/exp/cre and one of spi/phi... or possibly just take spi/phi
ah yeah

me: OK, Lizzie is also banned

scooter: you guys are using ice age?
not a fan of that script... mostly because its annoying - very dry and food poor map

me: So I have Mansa #1 and then some discussion between Pericles, Peter, Izzie, Ghandi or Ragnar

scooter: i like hatty as your #3... but i get the feeling you dont like it quite so much

me: I am not as big on CRE as some I guess, it feels distinctly third to me
FIN seems significantly better to me

scooter: i do agree with that much yeah

me: To the point where taking Ragnar is probably more valuable

scooter: i think you're likely to land gandhi... unless mansa somehow drops
but then again, he did for me in pbem14
clear down to the 4th pick... so it can happen

me: If Mansa drops, then I know I am in for a good game I think

scooter: yep

me: I almost wish there was no ban list
With five civs, who cares
Everyone would get one of Willem, Pacal, Sury, Inca, India
s
cooter: yeah pretty much
thats how it normally plays out

me: I would've ranked them Pacal, India, Willem, Inca I think

scooter: i think its just that we've had several pbems with that group, so people try to avoid it
probably same for me

me: If you have Inca, Sury is less valubale

scooter: but the problem is when you ban that group, there's another group that emerges as the next best
although its much less distinct than unbanned

me: It is a shame Khmer are so nerfed with no WEphants on
The Baray is a good building

scooter: yeah
although incas uu is pretty useless as well, but the ub makes it good enough
going without a uu is manageable in this kind of game as it makes you less threatening
genreally a diplo plus
not ideal, but its workable

me: Well, Inca is GREAT for an EXP civ, unless you are Sury, and then redundant

scooter: right

me: If I took Ragnar, I would strongly consider Rome
And people would freak out

scooter: i've always thought a roman chariot rush would be fun... just to screw with people

tl;dr: scooter and I definitely agreed that Mansa was the best available leader, after that he suggested Hatty and I had a tie between Ragnar, Ghandi, Pericles, Hatty, Peter, and Izzy.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Continuation of earlier longish chat with scooter:

scooter: so whats your top 3 now?

me: I don't have a clear decision made after Mansa
I have to admit that moving away from Financial is painful for me
Just because it is so easy to leverage
But given that I will have lots of lurker advice, I think I can make EXP work

scooter: you seriously will have tons of lurkers. hah
which honestly is a great motivation to post a lot i find

me: Krill suggested Izzy

scooter: i've posted more screenshots in pbem14 than all my other prevoius games combined... because i have several ded-lurkers. i'm motivated more
might be good yeah

me: Well, I post a major update every turn, with photos, demos, and updates for every city like clockwork
Even though no one is watching PBEM11

scooter: i always forget about 11. i think the slow pace and weird map killed my interest

me: Here is the biggest reason I am thinking maybe Ragnar (i.e. Financial) for #2
Gaspar says there will definitely be enough water for water UU/UBs to be valuable
That means a decent amount of coastal tiles
Which means financial dominates

scooter: yeah for sure
i think its hard for me to tell you to ditch Fin
at #3 you can get a good fin leader

me: Well, if Mansa and Ragnar went one/two

scooter: that'd be difficult. hannibal would be ok though. izzy might be better though....

me: I don't think I could do Darius

scooter: close call
no dont do darius
hannibal > darius IIMO
*IMO

me: Charismatic?

scooter: yeah i think so
the increased happy cap is nice with early whipping

me: Yeah, I don't mind Charismatic

scooter: plus stonehenge becomes a very, very strong play

me: Vicky is workable with cheap settlers
Yeah, Henge with Charismatic is great
And whipping is super charged on Quick anyway

scooter: also gives you flexibility to ignore monarchy for awhile
right

me: So why not Peter?
Exp is good
So it would be Phi or Spi to choose from

scooter: mostly - i think peter will be there on the way back
so if you want peter, might as well taek a civ
just seems like a weak choice at #3... phi is challenging to do properly, and I think it's more valuable in SP than MP
and as great as exp is... i still would rather have fin
so it just feels not great taking it at 3. at 8, sure why not
depending on whats on the board

me: So the question I haven't thought about
With Inca/India off board
What civs would we be considering?

scooter: egypt, byz, and rome are probably the best
i'd lean towards not taking rome
just puts too big a target... basicallhy inviting your neighbor to rush you
byzantine is nice if you have lots of room

me: Yeah, I figure if I had Ragnar and rome was available on the way back, I would have to take Rome
but I know what you are saying

scooter: basically, on a cramped map, i like egypt... lots of room, i like byz
2 mover UUs is just nice in general too
i would say zulu but they are scout start so dont bother

me: Byz is Cataphracts?

scooter: yeah
probably the strongest UU really

me: Ragnar of Zulu would be decent
For cheap Ikhandas

scooter: praets just tend to be more popular because they get used earlier so impact the game sooner
eh. the maintenance effect on ikhandas is practically nothing
-20% maintenance is less than 1 for a looong time
under the mod its a stronger play, because you can use it for culture

me: Yeah, but I do like getting the UB for half cost

scooter: right... but its basically just a barracks in the end as the ikhanda maintenance bonus means squat for most of the game, so agg barracks applies to any civ really

me: OK, MNG just took Hatty

scooter: plus scout start is just obnoxious
nice

me: We get Mansa or Rag if we want them

scooter: fingers crossed for mansa
cool
who picks second?

me: I don't know any of the players
scooter: yuris is next
dk himi at all
actually he never posted before signing up for this game. talk about a total wildcard

me: Most of the game is that way
Who is Commodore?
Who is Ranamar?
With the crew we got, I think we should win.

scooter: exactly...
yeah, i think so too, unless one of them is a closet brilliant civ player

me: But who knows
Could be ringers
Yeah, like Kyan

scooter: i like your chances though

me: who showed up and was like, WTF

scooter: haha yeah, always was a very strong player but always downplayed his abilities
til he finally recently just admitted that he's actually pretty dang good

me: So do we think Ragnar is the right play for #3 if Mansa isn't there?

scooter: yeah i think so

hannibal is growing on me honestly... but yeah you're probably right

me: I do think AGG is more powerful in SP than MP
But I am not sure I want to feel so much pressure to build monuments or Henge

scooter: yeah... and chm is nice because it has a good economic benefit too
right... know what you mean
thats the biggest chm issue i think... feeling pidgeon-holed into henge/monuments
yeah, go for ragnar
as #2
and if rome is available on teh way back, grab it

me: If no Rome, what do you think?
Cataphracts don't really fit
With AGG

scooter: hard to say
yeah, cuz next best optoins are egypt and byz
and both of those dont fit with agg
which is part of why hannibal is sounding pretty alright with me

me: If we took Hannibal, we would probably want a civ that starts with Mysticism right?

scooter: probably... not a necessity though

me: I really like Ag/Mining civs
Because I want the option to get to AH if needed for food, and I love early bronze working
Need slavery by turn 30 at the latest
Preferably by T20
for chops and slaves

scooter: yeah me too

scooter: so i'll catch ya tomorrow. hopefully yuris leaves us mansa and saves us all the headache!

me: So Hannibal or Ragnar, just gotta make a choice
But yeah, Mansa would rock

scooter: yeah. personally, i'd take hannibal, but thats purely my preference and not really based on one being better in my opinion
i just enjoy chm more than agg
but its your game, and i think agg and chm are pretty equal here
i'd be happy with either one honestly, so you'll get a good leader either way

me: OK, we'll chat later

tl;dr: We really want Mansa, narrow down our back up option to Ragnar or Hannibal. Not sure at all about the other players.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Within 30 seconds of posting Mansa as the pick, Krill's evil Sauron-eye in the sky found out and he came to berate me for ignoring his advice:

krill.krill: stupid choice

krill.krill: stupid choice
well not really
but boring
and dependant on good land

me: Ehh, Spiritual is my favorite trait

krill.krill: Spi is fine, bestlate game trait

me: And personally, I don't trust myself to leverage EXP well
I am kind of a nubcake remember

krill.krill: exp is easy to getup and running
get pottery
chop granaries before you half fill the food box at size 1
and work cottages everywhere

me: The main reason I took Mansa was the whole water map thing. Gaspar said he planned to put enough out there that water UU/UB would be competitive

krill.krill: ...
Portugal is never competitive unless you take control ofa game
Dutch are always competitive
with a good leader

me: Scooter says you are an expansive whore

krill.krill: and Carthage just needs lots of islands then they are awesome
shrug
True
but you'll note I've played Expansive once on RB
I know how to use all of hte triats, but EXP is the one that when used in a noob game will put you over teh top best

me: If we didn't take Mansa, scooter and I were trying to choose between Izzy, Hannibal, Peter, and Ragnar

me: See, I kind of feel the opposite. EXP would be really good to get an early lead against players who are very good, but against weaker players, we should be able to grab a decent start anyway, so we might as well plan to be way ahead late game
I don't fancy myself anywhere near the level of you or Darrell, but between having half of RB on my team, surely we can work out some decent early plan to get off to a good start

krill.krill: Redacted for spoilers, discussing best use of EXP he has seen.

me: Which would be what, using it for extra early chops with more workers to get early game goodies?

krill.krill: yes
and then snowball
you get far ahead
and then consolidate
and SPI in particular is best for that

me: Which is why you like Izzy I suppose

krill.krill: Yeah
Never played here in a long game
but always meant to

me: Part of it too was that I wanted to take a civ that was banned in my last game
I wanted Mansa last time, and he wasn't available
So now that you are done berating me Darrell style, any advice on civ selection?

krill.krill: get Agri/Wheel

me: Spiritual doesn't really dictate any particular civ

krill.krill: as starting techs
and the rest doesn't really matter
Always need Agri
it's the one tech that you can't really afford to bewithout
And it is expensive

me: what civs have ag/mining, I love BW'ing.

krill.krill: China

me: Ag/wheel

krill.krill:multiple
babylon
Egypt
France
sumeria
ottomans

me: Probably wouldn't want Sumer due to the weird UU

krill.krill: Egypt is just the best choice really

me: I assume Egypt wont make it back to me

krill.krill: you only need 3 choices
Egypt,. China and one other

me: What about Ag/Mysticism. If neither of the people before take Mysticism, do you think an early religion could be a good play?
Since I am SPI

krill.krill: only Inca have that
you have no early traits, first 40 turns focus purely on growth
PBEM17, getting Henge that late was a risk but validated because only one other person needed it

me: The person before me took Huayna
So I am assuming early wonder spam
Although i didn't really do that in PBEM11

krill.krill: you focus on growth and working cottages
Oracle can be ignored
Henge is the only really useful wonder in the early game
the rest are used to make up deficits

me: Right now I am thinking Ottoman


krill.krill: Eh, I hate them, but there are the best "bland" civ in hte game

me: You hate everything, so I am OK with you hating it. You already hate Mansa. Might as well be the blandest civ/leader combo possible.

me: Why would Egypt be preferable to Ottoman?

krill.krill: options
and better UB/UU for providing them

me: What option does the UB provide?
Other than to make a GProphet?

krill.krill: yes
very sellable items, GP

me: But considering I am not going to be going for an early religion at all, couldn't I do the same thing with one temple?

krill.krill: temples are pretty expensive
and it delays you getting a GS ifyou have to wait 34 turns for a GP

me: What does the obelisk do exactly?
One Prophet slot?

krill.krill: same as monument
+2 priest slots

me: OK, plus two
I see
The obelisk doesn't list two free priest slots on CFC, so I never could figure it out exactly

krill.krill: It's CFC
Not worth reading most of the time

me: For basic information like that about units and stuff, I am not sure where else to go without loading up the civlopedia

krill.krill: Um, you could learn them

me: Slowly but surely, May is my one year civ anniversary.
I am not an evil robot designed for Civ destruction like you

krill.krill: Good job. I've been learning for 8 years

tl;dr: I am an idiot, but mainly just boring for ignoring him and taking Mansa. Recommends Egypt. I want Ottoman.


Highlight:

me: Right now I am thinking Ottoman

krill.krill: Eh, I hate them, but there are the best "bland" civ in the game

me: You hate everything, so I am OK with you hating it. You already hate Mansa. Might as well be the blandest civ/leader combo possible.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Civ selection discussion with scooter:

scooter: mansa it is!

me: Nice
I just woke up

scooter: yuris took huayna

me: Glad its not Mansa
Actually wasn't happy with that
Was hoping no one would take an IND leader

scooter: woudl be nice
the hope though is that he falls into the wonder trap that many players do

me: Mali might be a good Civ actually for them

scooter: very true

me: Krill is harassing me

scooter: about?

me: taking mansa
he says I am boring

scooter: hah
who does he suggest?

me: should've taken Izzy

scooter: he loves expansive
expansive is a nice way to get an early lead
fin is a nice way to win

me: That is my feeling as well

me: Right now I am thinking Ottoman, China, Egypt, Babylon in that order for civs
All start with Ag/wheel or Ag/mining
And all have at least a workable UU or UB

scooter: which ones are agg/mining
i think china is agg/mining

me: Yeah
China is Ag/Mining
Wheel is expensive, mining gives early BW for a SPI civ
Krill says take Egypt
I am leaning Ottoman

scooter: those would be my two choices

me: I don't think egypt will still be there

scooter: egypt is better civ probably
yeah, i'm not so sure they will be either

me: Why you say egypt is better?
Just curious

scooter: war chariots are great for their era and come far earlier than jannisaries... are more dominant in general
and the obelisk is a very nice ub
makes it easy to get a prophet if you want

me: Well, I probably won't go early religion
Right now a rough rough plan is to beeline CoL
For getting Caste border pops and the religion

scooter: right, but i mean if you get a high food spot, you can build an obelisk, generate a prophet real fast, bulb CoL...
just flexibility i guess
though i guess egypt and ottomans are fairly equal... i just like egypt more

me: I would be more apt to settle an early early GProphet
2hpt, 5gpt is nothing to sneeze at

scooter: its very good, but a shrine would be more valuable from an income standpoint...
but yeah, settling one is still strong

me: Yeah, I mean, I would want the shrine too
Just saying, with only five players, bulbing CoL wouldn't seem like a great play
There are 7 religions available

scooter: yeah true

me: And five of them are on techs that you will grab anyway

scooter: yeah

tl;dr: scooter agrees that Egypt is the best choice. Beginning to formulate a loose plan to go for Code of Laws.

After talking to Luddite who also recommended Egypt, I decided to respect my betters and chose Egypt.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Discussions with Brian Shanahan:

I look forward to a really active game.

Scooter and I both thought Mansa was the best leader available and really wanted him. Krill told me a I was dumb because that is what Krill does.

I wanted Ottoman, but Krill, scooter, and Luddite talked me into Egypt.

Right now my early plan is to hopefully beeline Code of Laws, use the first GProphet to shrine Confu, and use SPI to switch between Slavery/OR and Caste System for artist border pops.

GES

Knowing Krill if you picked a civ with all traits, and the rest having none, he'd still berate you for it. Confused beeline is very strong in SP, and should be fairly good to in MP. Any plans for leveraging the War Chariots, they are overpowered early on, so you could get a quick kill if you go straight for Agri and have horses.

Brian.

Chat:

me: I'd have to see the map to make WC plans.
In general, in a 5 person game, it is almost a problem to be too good early on.
You take someone else's land and then everyone else perceives you as a huge threat

briandmos​eanachain: Yeah it can be a problem to be the tall poppy early on, but the advantages of having 2 capitals if you can keep them should be magnified. Now I'm a MP noob myself to take advice with a grain of salt.

me: I feel like with SPI and Egypt, I need a religion, but I don't really want to divert too far down the religious line, which is why I think CoL is the best option.

briandmos​eanachain: CoL IMO is always strong, I wonder would you consider Oracling it, trying for 2 religions. It's an SP tactic I know but with a forested marble start it may be a rocket powered start.

me: The only fear in doing that is I lack EXP and CRE (granted, so do two other civs), so I don't want to fall too far behind off the start by putting in an Oracle beeline
There are also two IND civs in 5
So I expect some wonder whoring

briandmos​eanachain: True that, I'd only consider it in case of Marble start.

me: Especially since Commodore wanted Biz as well
So it seems three people may overvalue wonders

briandmos​eanachain: Bismarck I think is slightly overrated

me: He wasn't even on my radar
I had it something like this
MANSA.
.
.
.
.
.
Ragnar, Izzy, Peter, Ghandi,
Hannibal too
Hatty was on my list

briandmos​eanachain: Yeah I saw that. So how many cities will you be looking to get out during the CoL beeline. And I woudln't even make it a straight beeline if it were me.
Hatty's decent SPI/CRE is strong early, when advantages are best used.

me: Yeah, when I say beeline, I don't mean straight there
I will go for Bronze Working first
And AH if I need to pasture

briandmos​eanachain: Yeah you don't want to get Confused just to die the next turn.

me: And then only after either or both of those are knocked out, will head there
Although, i suppose I should grab AH anyway just to see horsies
So I would probably go BW-->AH unless there is animals to be pastured, and then I would go AH-->BW

briandmos​eanachain: Well with WCs I'd take it first no matter what your plans are. If you don't use them, they're good for barbs

me: Ah shit, I forgot barbs are on
I haven't played with barbs in so long
Probably worth going barb hunting with the WC to try to get HE unlocked

briandmos​eanachain: They're annoying, but a good shield of 4 or 5 units should work. At least you'll have the other players doing their bit to spawn-bust

tl;dr: Without seeing the map, early tech plan is AH-->BW if something to pasture, BW-->AH if no livestock around. After those two are knocked out, I plan to head straight for CoL to found Confu and use my GProphet from an obelisk for the shrine and Caste System for fake-Creative.

[scooter]

This just made my night:

me: Scooter says you are an expansive whore

Actual laughter was produced

I definitely didn't use those exact words, but I'd say that was a great summary of what I said . Glad (I think) to know Krill agreed with me on this part:

me: Why would Egypt be preferable to Ottoman?

krill.krill: options
and better UB/UU for providing them

[Ichabod]

Everybody is having chats... I'm feeling so alone...

Well, while going for early Caste System is a very nice play with a spiritual civic (and if we manage a religion, I'd go for a earlier than normal pacifism too), I don't think we should do a straight beeline after AH and BW. First of all, it'll depend a lot on the map.

So, if I understand correctly, an early shrine is prefered to an early academy because we won't be running a high science slider for a long time. Actually, I never thought about it this way and I have to say I agree. Goes to show that the pros are indeed pros! That makes going for quick libraries + academy not that good of a choice.

But if we run binary research? Is it better to get the early academy or the shrine still wins?

I really liked the leader choice, because I'm a big spiritual fan. Financial is always good, of course.

Spoiler PB4:

Locke from PB4 seems to be doing a great job with his spiritual trait. Unfortunately, he doesn't have time to update the thread much. It's basicly switching from slavery + OR to caste + pacifism. So, getting a well spread religion will be important.

Can't wait to see the map!