This Time for Sure: Mardoc reprises the Lanun

[Mardoc]

Mardoc gets the Lanun right this time!

Welcome aboard the SS Mardoc, ladies and gentlemen! Drinks are to the left, eyepatches on the table to your right. If you still have both eyes, the dueling area is up on that balcony. Knock yourselves out. :aar:

[Mardoc]

Reserved for table of contents (if I remember to update)

Lanun changes in Erebus in the Balance

The Crew

[Gaspar]

Reserved for table of contents (if I remember to update)

Nobody ever remembers to update the table of contents.

[Ichabod]

Go! Go! Mardoc!

Can you give a brief overview of any Lanun changes on the EitB mod?

[Mardoc]

Ok, who have we got?


Darrell: Arendel (Ljosalfar)
Tatan: Valledia (Amurites)
Mardoc: Falamar (Lanun)
Ilios: Capria (Bannor)
Uberfish: Os-Gabella (Sheaim)

What's notable here? We're the only one without a late-game gimmick, unless you count ocean sites. That means I need to put forth excellent performance from turn 1!

I'm going to assume everyone involved knows the basics of FFH - but we're looking at Erebus in the Balance here. Things have changed. Most particularly things related to what's the best strategy.

Of course, it's debatable if I even found the best strategies myself last time .

What did I learn last time? Well - despite being the best water civ, the Lanun still want to develop inland first, at least for the most part. Land cities just tend to be stronger. Use the coastal advantages later, as everyone else runs out of land to expand into, but we can keep founding new decent cities. Basically, we'll want to account for coastal cities in our dotmap - but found them later on; inland first. Maybe make exceptions for exceptional sites.

[Mardoc]

Can you give a brief overview of any Lanun changes on the EitB mod?

Why, yes, Ichabod, I'm glad you asked


Changelog lives here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4995277/RBCIV%20...g%20v7.pdf

What's changed, that will directly effect us piratey folks?

Well, first, the obvious: Falamar is now Adaptive. Yep, he's always Charismatic, but now his Expansive trait is adaptive. That means we need to look into all the traits, to see how they've changed. First thought - we want something economic from T70-T145. There's a decent chance that 'something' is still Expansive, actually. After that, Spiritual, and build an army out of Priests. Lanun UU's are still bad (although slightly improved), so we still want to focus on stuff everyone can use.

Alternately, Raider horses. I don't think there's much point in Arcane, given the competition can do it bigger and better.

Lanun now start with Seafaring and Exploration; workers can at least build roads Seafaring is no longer the Pearl-revealer, that's now Sailing. Seafaring still gives +1 movement speed, but now also gives +1 commerce to fishing nets. Handy, but not magic.

Boarding Parties. Same Str 5 Bleh, although at least they can use metal. Now they get +25% against melee and +50% against ships, and can still capture ships. So at least they're better than axes now

...that's it, for direct changes. Pretty much makes sense, though, with the consensus that Lanun were (are?) a middle of the pack civ.


Second, techs the Lanun will tend to gravitate toward:
Sailing now reveals pearls. I think that means anyone can have them. Also that we won't have them immediately even if we beeline Fishing.
Stirrups is more expensive of a tech.
Religions are totally revamped, will look into this later. Mostly this is just the tech tree and Esus, the others will look familiar. And of course in this game, OO is banned.

Third, buildings we'll want.
Well - ok, so most buildings have changes that might make them viable. In particular, a lot lot of buildings are cheaper.
Lighthouses are one of those.
Harbors now give an extra +1 commerce from water, and ours also give +1 Pearl happy. (in addition to the normal seafood health boost, trade route boost, naval production boost, -10% maintenance cost, and enabling boarding parties). And half price with Expansive. We might actually build some!
Shipyards give +1 Hammer from water tiles.

Add the three of these, and coastal cities will be half decent! Of course there's the minor detail of not getting there until Iron Working and a major hammer investment

Civics: The most dramatic relevant change, I think, is Foreign Trade. It's now +1 trade route/city, another +1/coastal city, and +100 improvement growth rate. Combine with, perhaps, Republic for +1 Hammer +1 Commerce from Towns, and suddenly a cove/cottage economy might actually work. This is another reason we can wait to found coastal cities, our Pirate Coves should grow faster post Trade.

Wonders: Great Lighthouse is cheaper. As are several others that I don't usually bother with; it'll require actual thought as to what we should go for!

Plans for future posts? Well, after we work out the impact on EitB on the Lanun, I plan to take our opponents one at a time and figure out how they've been altered.

[Gaspar]

What did I learn last time? Well - despite being the best water civ, the Lanun still want to develop inland first, at least for the most part. Land cities just tend to be stronger. Use the coastal advantages later, as everyone else runs out of land to expand into, but we can keep founding new decent cities. Basically, we'll want to account for coastal cities in our dotmap - but found them later on; inland first. Maybe make exceptions for exceptional sites.

I'd beg to differ slightly. I think early on, there's still nothing in the early game quite like a Pirate Port. I'd definitely aim to have the first couple of sites be coastal. Also, some of the changes in the mod, like the boost to Foreign Trade, will improve the value of Coastal sites. You just need to be mindful of production. I think PB said somewhere - for Coastal sites, consider production, for Inland sites, consider commerce. I think that simple rule is really the most logical FFH/EitB gameplan.

Keep in mind also that the new shipyard is Moai. So coastal sites are even better that way. No, you don't want to neglect inland stuff, but 3/1/2 everywhere is a pretty friggin nice tile, not counting Pirate Ports which are insane now. So my suggestion would be a better balanced empire than you had in FFH3, but I'd still say anything other than taking advantage of the roided up coast would be a mistake.

Also, this is a stated "builder" game. That means you're going to be looking at lots of room. So using Expansive and getting the settlers going is going to be priority. Like you said, best strategy would be getting yourself to late game first, since others late game will be much better than yours. It also means you're probably going to need to go to war sooner, to hopefully take advantage of being in front on tech. Even with the less impressive sea tiles and the issues you had in FFH3, you were still ahead of everyone but Thoth. Refining the battle plan a little bit and you might be able to get out front fast enough to cause real damage.

As a quick thought, its waaaay faster to get Iron Champs in the mod - Boarding Parties might suck, but they'll suck a lot less if you have them while others have nothing better than axes.

Having said this, I haven't played an EitB game other than 100 turns-ish of the last adventure, so don't quote me too heavily on any of this.

[Mardoc]

You're probably right, I shouldn't let the pendulum swing too far in the other direction, either. I can certainly make it to Fishing well before Aristograrianism kicks off - and that strategy's been nerfed a bit, too.

It's hard to say in FFH3 how much of my performance was Lanun, and how much was Financial. I was, after all, the only financial civ, except Thoth's adaptive switch.

Anyway, more tomorrow. The pillow is calling!

[Mist]

Bosman Mist ARRives on deck

First thought - we want something economic from T70-T145.

Staying expansive on first swap is ok, but two things to bear in mind -
1) EXP doesn't double food component of settler production
2) After c.a. t110, our core cities should be able to pump settlers fast without exp anyhow, which leaves us 30 turns in midgame with a poor trait

Other stuff worth considering on first change

SPI - there will be plenty of civic and religion swapping in this period, saves us some anarchy and allows to flip more often
ORG - we should have decent number of cities, so economy of scale with oeg will matter, also most of them will want the cheap courthouse and some of them will be good with a command post
FIN - cheap markets, cheap gambling houses, +25% gold not a killer anymore but still a contender

After that, Spiritual, and build an army out of Priests.

Alternately, Raider horses. I don't think there's much point in Arcane, given the competition can do it bigger and better.

To what end? The map is supposed to be huge and builder oriented, whatever victory you end up chasing, domination conquest should be on the low end of the list.

I'd seriously consider PHI on the second swap, all the peaceful victory conditions are much faster and easier when backed by a steady stream of proper great people. Also cheap libraries at this point are nothing to sneeze at.

I'd beg to differ slightly. I think early on, there's still nothing in the early game quite like a Pirate Port. I'd definitely aim to have the first couple of sites be coastal.

Sorry Gaspar, but hell no. What's faster to stand up - a land city that can borrow workers from other already improved cities or a coastal city that needs to push a lighthouse, harbor and two workboats with no bloody mines because you prioritized water techs first and spent hammers on building said workboats instead of workers?

Fishing villages will be powerful, that's true. But in mid-game. Once we have foreign trade and army of workers with all techs to prop up these hammer sinks. And slavery, whipping will be a godsend to all coastal cities.

[Jkaen]

Will sign on as a ded lurker too.

I have read the map thread put not seen the map itself just some of the discussions about it, so I am not heavily spoilt.