[SPOILERS] Mapmaking discussion

[Mardoc]

In the beginning, the Earth was without form, and void.
But the Sun shone upon the sleeping Earth and deep inside the brittle crust massive forces waited to be unleashed.
The seas parted and great continents were formed. The continents shifted, mountains arose. Earthquakes spawned massive tidal waves. Volcanoes erupted and spewed forth fiery lava and charged the atmosphere with strange gases.
Into this swirling maelstrom of Fire and Air and Water the first stirrings of Life appeared: tiny organisms, cells, and amoeba, clinging to tiny sheltered habitats.
But the seeds of Life grew, and strengthened, and spread, and diversified, and prospered, and soon every continent and climate teemed with Life.
And with Life came instinct, and specialization, natural selection, Reptiles, Dinosaurs, and Mammals and finally there evolved a species known as Man and there appeared the first faint glimmers of Intelligence.
The fruits of intelligence were many: fire, tools, and weapons, the hunt, farming, and the sharing of food, the family, the village, and the tribe. Now it required but one more ingredient: a great Leader to unite the quarreling tribes to harness the power of the land to build a legacy that would stand the test of time:
a CIVILIZATION!

[Mardoc]

Wow, the players gave a lot of freedom here.

Things requested:
Each civ starts with 2 settlers, 1 worker, standard warrior/scout allotment, 1 Shade. Given this - I'm going to have to leave them with Super Settler, I think, which means my edits will need to go a bit wider than usual. Can't get away with my lazy trick of balancing one awesome BFC.

Base FFH2 mod
Game speed quick
Restricted leaders
Last days off
ToM victory off
Acheron- Off
Orthus- Off
Barbarians- Normal
Living World- On
Vassal- Off
World Spells- On
Tech Trading- Off
Wildlands- Weezel votes on. Ravus votes off, but I don't think he's playing. The rest abstain.
Exploits- Banned, as expected.
Lairs- On
Huts- On
Unique features- Mapmakers discretion. Not too close to start areas though. I'm also not a fan of putting held super-units on them.

They want a large map; I'm currently thinking Standard if they have five, and Large if they have six, but I might bump that up to Large for both. Their starting buffs ought to mean the land is filled faster than usual anyway.

And...that's about it. They want a balanced map, with all civs on the same landmass, which I kind of took as a given No one really cares about natural vs. artificial. So basically - my standard mandate ought to work just fine: make the game about the players, not the mapmaker.

I'm going to have to pick a script. As much as I like Inland Sea, I think people will expect it by now, so I should mix it up a bit. Anyone have recommendations? Definitely *not* Erebus or Erebus Continents.

I've been happy with Lakes and Tectonic in the past. Pangaea is also an option.

At their current rate of decisionmaking, I doubt I'll have the info needed to start a map tonight. So all thoughts are welcome!

Finally, one piece of data:

Here are my leader picks for the new PBEM:

1) Arendel
2) Perpentach
3) Tebryn
4) Hannah

So...Arboreal is definitely out! No way to make that balanced with elves guaranteed to be in the game.

[Cromagnumpi]

I've always enjoyed the Erebus mapscript but definitely fits better in single player mode.

Maybe a wheel pangaea? Something like one of the BTS team comps that was played before.

[Mardoc]

I've always enjoyed the Erebus mapscript but definitely fits better in single player mode.

Precisely. It's fun, but it's not balanced, and I'd argue it's not even very balancable. Works well for single player, or Adventures or Succession Games. But to make it fair for an MP game would require so many edits that I might as well just start with a blank canvas.

Maybe a wheel pangaea? Something like one of the BTS team comps that was played before.

Hmm. I'm not certain what that looks like, I'll have to try a couple samples to see if I like it.

[kjn]

One thing that might fall into being borderline gimmicky, but I think would fit very well into the spirit of FfH, is to make the map very scarce in happiness resources. Instead use wildlands, and maybe even no barbs. Maybe a few pre-placed bear or lion dens.

Ie, the idea is to make the players work to get their happiness.

Silk: available by creating a Spider Pen. Otherwise not.
Dye, Cotton & Sugar: in hard-to-reach regions, eg jungled marsh
Incense: only in desert
Ivory: only via the Dragon Bones
Pearls (if Lanun in game) & Whale: only around remote, barren islands (though galley-reachable with culture)
Wine: maybe put one wine near each player's starting position

This will slow down early teching, but rivers, the starting shade, and the starting worker would compensate.

[Mardoc]

Hmm, Ellimist is full of surprises, although I can see his logic:

1st: Kurios Cardith
2nd: Clan Jonas
3rd: Malakim Varn

@kjn: I'll have to think about that proposal. My main fear is that it might make the elves too strong, and Kurios too weak.

[uberfish]

I don't think "slow start" maps make for a particularly fun experience in these PBEMs.

[Serdoa]

One thing that might fall into being borderline gimmicky, but I think would fit very well into the spirit of FfH, is to make the map very scarce in happiness resources. Instead use wildlands, and maybe even no barbs. Maybe a few pre-placed bear or lion dens.

Ie, the idea is to make the players work to get their happiness.

Silk: available by creating a Spider Pen. Otherwise not.
Dye, Cotton & Sugar: in hard-to-reach regions, eg jungled marsh
Incense: only in desert
Ivory: only via the Dragon Bones
Pearls (if Lanun in game) & Whale: only around remote, barren islands (though galley-reachable with culture)
Wine: maybe put one wine near each player's starting position

This will slow down early teching, but rivers, the starting shade, and the starting worker would compensate.

Sounds for me pretty much like "Screw the players and see how they react". Not meant to sound to harsh, but I think we should have learned by now that maps making it artificially harder are mostly not fun, at least not for PBEMs. And not being able to grow your cities is certainly not fun. Apart from the obvious issue that there are certain civs which work much better in such an enviroment (elves for example, with guardian of nature). That unbalances the game much more imo.

As for the map: I personally like Inland Sea as a map script. But thats just me.

[Mardoc]

Sounds for me pretty much like "Screw the players and see how they react". Not meant to sound to harsh, but I think we should have learned by now that maps making it artificially harder are mostly not fun, at least not for PBEMs. And not being able to grow your cities is certainly not fun. Apart from the obvious issue that there are certain civs which work much better in such an enviroment (elves for example, with guardian of nature). That unbalances the game much more imo.

Hmm, that's a good point. PBEM VI was interesting, once, but not as fun as a more normal map would have been. And it definitely shifted the balance of what strategies work and don't work. I think I might be less careful about making sure everyone has every resource, though, and I might even aim to set up some obvious trading possibilities.

I tend to think this sort of thing is more suited to an Adventure. Which, well, I'd be happy to play as soon as I can figure out a way to clear my schedule enough .

As for the map: I personally like Inland Sea as a map script. But thats just me.

So do I - so much that I fear I'm falling into a rut. I don't want players to know what the world looks like from the get go because it's a 'Mardoc map'.

[DaveV]

Here's a crazy idea: generate a tiny Highlands map, then make three copies to the north, east, and northeast. Put the players in the center of each copy.