Get Rich or Die Tryin': HidingKneel and Mardoc tackle the Khazad (Spoilers!)

[HidingKneel]

Do they make nineteen-sided dice?

[HidingKneel]

So! Another one!

Let's get to work!

Maybe it's a good opportunity to try out a road less travelled. Some initial ideas, in rough order of appeal:

Khazad? I'd kind of like to try them out, but only if the map is small enough that aiming to fill up vaults won't be shooting myself in the foot.

Bannor? Try to lay low until fanaticism, then use foreign trade + crusade to pump out 50,000 demogogs per turn?

Sheaim? Os-Gabella isn't so bad now that she's spiritual, or could aim for late game arcane dominance as Tebryn.
An AC-centered strategy probably isn't so viable, but it's a lot more so now that Averax is an option.

Elohim? Take Einion or Thessalonica, and aim for an altar victory?

Could be fine with any of your suggestions. I'd kinda lean against Bannor and Elohim, just because they're not quite different enough, and also they're on the stronger end of the options you listed. But of course you're the player and I'm just the dedlurker, you're the one who'll put in the majority of the time, so make sure you go for something you like.

If we go Sheaim, I want to push the AC even though I think it's, ahem, not the strongest strategy. Similarly, although I suspect Khazad do best when ignoring the vaults, I can't see playing them without some attention to filling those suckers.

A couple other possibilities:
Grigori. I tend to think that Agnostic is a much worse cost than Heroes are a bonus. Only Thoth has really shown them in a good light, and that was the starting-with-adept game.

Could be interesting to see what's possible without religion, though.

Illians: Again, only Selrahc has really done much with them. Be interesting to see how they fare in EitB. And they're nothing if not different from a standard path. Could be fun to really emphasize the ice-nature, deliberately aim to freeze the world as priority #1 and only win as priority #2

Biggest downside to both is that their strongest path is the way of the mage, which can be very micro-heavy. But hey, that's what I have a primary turnplayer for, isn't it? Also that we already know that mages can win games (although I don't recall you, personally, having a game with that focus).

I guess I'm starting to see a theme with the ones that really excite me - they're the ones where we play with a role-play goal on top of Just Win. Like a certain Kurio game .

XXI was definitely the most fun of my games so far. But I think it'll hard to replicate: Selrahc and Bob were helping us out by giving the game a sense of urgency that it usually doesn't have. Of course, we could be the ones doing that instead, say if we went for an armageddon strategy with the Sheaim. Even if we go that route, I don't think we should try the AC rush: it didn't work for Selrahc even under close to optimal conditions (though I guess he told us about it ahead of time; might have been a different story if it had been a surprise). But getting the Prophecy built mid-game, in a city that can 1-turn pyre zombies?
That could be a tough operation to shut down. You did just get finished playing Averax, but this would be a different direction to go with him.

I'm definitely in favor of choosing a civ that we can play thematically. I think that's why I like the elves so much: the game mechanics really reward you for doing things that seem elf-y. If we were to go with the Illians, I'd want to aim (hopelessly!) to actually grab Auric Ascended. I'd be all for it if it weren't for the ban on stasis: I think this just hurts Auric too much.

Grigori I'm less enthused about. For their heroes, they don't just have to give up religion: they're also giving up regular great people. It's a weak mechanic and also causes us to miss out on fun parts of the game. To get good use out of the heroes we'd have to design a tech path around promoting them. And I'm already playing an Arcane civ in XXV.

The Elohim are pretty good but not top-tier, I'd say. But they've seen a lot of play already, so let's table them. As for the Bannor: has anyone but Mr. Yellow tried them in an EitB game here? I think they might be worth a go. Though we sort of already did a crusade in XXI. Also, I think it would be more fun to do Bannor-stuff in a game without Compact Enforced, since they want to head to Fanaticism anyway (and again, we've been there already).

[Mardoc]

As for the Bannor: has anyone but Mr. Yellow tried them in an EitB game here?

Yes, at least twice. Ilios used them in XVI, the game Thoth and I proved v8 Falamar was broken. And Xenin won pretty convincingly via Crusade in XIX. Although he'd likely have won regardless with his demographic dominance, Crusade definitely helped. If you want to declare war on the world, this is a good way to go...

For the Sheaim - it wouldn't be a AC rush, it'd be first build a strong position and then inexorably raise the AC while no one is willing to stick their head into our meatgrinder. And build and profit from Planar Gates, or make a convincing case for why they should be buffed. All that said, I forgot the Compact is enforced - playing an AC game without Hell sounds kinda boring, actually .

Illians - why are they still worth playing even without Stasis? Well, they do have a lot in their kit. First, Arcane/Charismatic is the ideal mage building combo, and Ice mana means they always have something useful to build. Priests of Winter are a solid early game force, either pushing back the borders or keeping people away while we tech to mages. The various rituals are unlocked along the mage tech path, anyway, so there's not a lot of split efforts.

Also, Charismatic + Enchantment mana is a whole bunch of free happy in the early game. Temples of the Hand guarantee that we always have reasonable tiles to work with that happiness. Temples + PoW also mean that we can keep the REX phase going longer than anyone else - after the good stuff is taken, we can keep going to grab the crappy stuff and terraform it, and meanwhile PoW will be able to keep us safe.

I guess I would argue that losing Stasis takes Illians from top tier to mid tier, not from mid tier to bottom. And if you're not quite convinced...didn't you want a challenge?

All that said, I really would be fine with any of Khazad, Sheaim, Illians, and even Elo/Bannor if the others are just a bridge too far for you. The only non-standard I'm opposed to is Doviello, and that's just because I don't want to rush.

[HidingKneel]

And Xenin won pretty convincingly via Crusade in XIX.

Though that was a regular FFH game. Think how many more demogogs he could have had with EitB's boosted cottage economy !

All that said, I forgot the Compact is enforced - playing an AC game without Hell sounds kinda boring, actually .

Good point. Though that actually boosts us, since hell terrain hurts evil civs before it hurts the rest.

I guess I would argue that losing Stasis takes Illians from top tier to mid tier, not from mid tier to bottom. And if you're not quite convinced...didn't you want a challenge?

I believe they've got a lot going for them. I just figure it'd be more fun to postpone playing the Illians until a game where Stasis isn't banned (amazingly, it's not banned in XXVII, so maybe it could happen again).

Let's tentatively go with the Khazad as our top pick, and reevaluate when we hear more about the map.

[Ichabod]

I'll hate you guys forever if you get the Khazad and steal my thunder with your way better reported/more fun/better played game. Either that or I'll volunteer to be the mapmaker and make a HUUUGE map on settler difficulty. How about that, huh?

[BRickAstley]

Cmon pick Doviello why is this not a done deal yet.

[HidingKneel]

I'll hate you guys forever if you get the Khazad and steal my thunder with your way better reported/more fun/better played game. Either that or I'll volunteer to be the mapmaker and make a HUUUGE map on settler difficulty. How about that, huh?

You're looking at this all wrong! It's all about franchising and the global economy. Kandros is busy at the home office on one end of Erebus, so he'll need Arturus to run the local office on the other end. By working together we can triple our profits!

To aid our thinking, here's a list of the civs that I believe haven't yet won a game on RB:

1) Elohim
2) Hippus
3) Amurites
4) Sheaim

Possibly Khazad and Illians belong there as well (the Khazad victory was a game that got called early, and the Illian victory was in an unrestricted leader game).

Some of these civs are rather strong! For example, choosing Tasunke might let us replicate the gameplan that was winning us XXI, before I got distracted by all the shiny toys and everything went wrong .

[HidingKneel]

Hmm... three-spell adept start is on the table.

If that garners some votes, I'm strongly inclined to grab a philosophical leader to maximize the benefits of inspiration for an early academy.

[Mardoc]

To aid our thinking, here's a list of the civs that I believe haven't yet won a game on RB:

1) Elohim
2) Hippus
3) Amurites
4) Sheaim

Possibly Khazad and Illians belong there as well (the Khazad victory was a game that got called early, and the Illian victory was in an unrestricted leader game).

Some of these civs are rather strong! For example, choosing Tasunke might let us replicate the gameplan that was winning us XXI, before I got distracted by all the shiny toys and everything went wrong .

Huh. I could have sworn that Hippus and Amurites had won, but I can't find a counterexample. I like them too!

I'd suggest Rhoanna instead of Tasunke, especially in a 6-player, but we could make either work. I don't think the strong period in XXI was due to the centaurs, I think it was due to the economic powerhouse of early game Kurios on a lush map.

But really, it's the Amurites that seem exciting. Particularly in a quick-start game, since it's their early game that's weak.

Edit: Also, since we're apparently looking at Settler Huge with our new mapmaking volunteer, perhaps Expansive is the trait we want

[Merovech]

Do they make nineteen-sided dice?

Yes. http://deceptivelyeducational.blogspot.c...write.html