[Spoilers] Fintourist and Old Harry have nothing to see here

[Krill]

Dunkirk.

[Mardoc]

Isandlwana might work.

[Fintourist]

I think Finns became too aggressive in 1940/41 when the war against Soviets was running pretty well, but I don't think that episode has a catchy name.. Otherwise we are such a young nation that there haven't been spectacular military misadventures (unless one counts couple of hockey games against Sweden)..

The small opponent/pairing analysis that I promised must wait until tomorrow, but just one quick comment on your very helpful table (thanks!): India got nerfed in RB-Mod and has wheel/mysticism as starting techs. This means in practise that going direct to BW and starting chopping with fast workers is significantly slower and if you want to improve your food resources first... it's even slower Well, I would still trade Babylon to India any day

[Rowain]

For K (and from my PoV)

Königgrätz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_K...gr%C3%A4tz)

[Fintourist]

Ok, let's comment a bit our opponents and Civ Pairings in this game!

Disclaimer 1: All the evaluations include the assumption that the map resembles the PB8-map (navy matters, lots of water etc.)
Disclaimer 2: When I comment on player skill I completely admit that my own civ experience of ~20 SP games and 1 unfinished multiplayer game does not give me any kind of authority to judge anyone. So when I say that someone sucks it is still probable that I suck harder..



Civ+Leader pairs that I consider stronger than ours

Plako: Ragnar (FIN/AGG) of Maya
Pick: Yeah, that's a great leader. Say what you say, FIN is still extremely strong. 2/0/3 lighthoused coast is so decent that it enables you to balance with lower investment into workers. 50 % boost to tiles with 2 commerce, 33 % boost to tiles with 3 commerce. It's still strong. The removal of river bonus eliminates one quick win option, but when you have FIN, the name of the game is still: you plant thousand cottages, others try to figure out how to keep up. Moreover, new AGG is a very nice supporting trait: Maintenance reduction lets you go a bit further horizontal and cheap barracks help with culture especially since getting a religion is most definitely not guaranteed in this game.
Player: Somehow Plako's threads don't highlight his thinking process as clearly as some other threads here (so I don't try to analyze what his strenghts and weaknesses are). But it's easy to state that plako is very good and a strong contender to win again.

Jowy: Pacal (FIN/EXP) of India
Pick: Everything in this pair is nerfed, but it's still good. As already stated, I still value FIN highly and despite Harry's doubts I think EXP is in the latest version decent again. That 35 % bonus guarantees practically 12-turn worker in any start and a 10-turn worker with a plains hill/resource start. Fast worker is still great and India's weakened starting techs aren't really weaker than our Agri/Wheel, if we don't luck out with an appropriate food resource.
Player: I think Jowy is a fellow Finn so I guess I should praise him He has experience, but not really convincing results. It would be a significant suprise if Jowy would win this game, but who knows..

Pindicator/scooter: Darius (FIN/ORG) of Vikings
Pick: Yeah, this is again a super combo. ORG is as strong as ever and the trading post synergy is exactly something that I would have hoped for our combination. Vikings in a water map are extremely annoying already without that boost.
Players: The team with the longest thread Yeah, this group (Is Noble again in?) does not lack experience or game knowledge. It remains to be seen whether they are good, very good or stellar.

Nakor/CFCJesterfool: Wang Kon (FIN/PRO) of Rome
Pick: FIN and cheap granaries. Easy to use, immediate benefits. Enough said. Preats are nerfed, Forums are improved. I guess Wang Kon of Inca would have been our dream pairing.. (Btw, I haven't internalized RBMod yet good enough to state that there aren't some other great very strong synergetic combos)
Players: Team India got criticized pretty badly in PB8, but I'm sure they have improved and are motivated. They don't lack game knowledge and are now definitely opponents to take with seriousity.

Commodore/Kurumi: Victoria (FIN/IMP) of Portugal
Pick: IMP is in my eyes not the strongest trait (although useful), but if you are going to get it, then Portugal is the right match. 60h Feitorias are a real bargain. I guess we need to force Commodore to pack his bags and sail away to conquer someone else's island before he gets his economy in full swing
Player: Of course Commodore is good, his unpredictability in war makes him dangerous, but at some point his willingness to take low-odd fights is going to cost him a fair bit. I'm also a bit disappointed that he could not leverage his land into a stronger economy in PB8 and handed the game to plako so easily. Anyways, strong contender, unpleasent neighbor and intriguing challenge

Yuris: Mehmed (EXP/ORG) of Ottomans
Pick: One trait to speed up expansion, one trait to manage it. 50 hammer Hammams (+2 happy & health), nice starting techs and I have actually started to like Janissaries For comparison our Gardens cost 80 hammers and we get 1 less happy
Player: I think I followed Yuris in PB7, where he played quite ok, but did not really rise from the pack. I can't really assess his threat-level or win chances

Serdoa: Mansa Musa (FIN/SPI) of America
Pick: FIN takes care of the economic front, SPI gives flexibility and saves anarchy turns. America is still a fairly empty civ, but with RBMod improvements some benefits can be derived from its UU & UB especially in the end-game
Player: Serdoa is strong and especially his performance in PBEM 47/48 (what was it?) was really convincing. Aaand I'm sure everybody knows that his teammate Seven is also an above-average player (when he has a good day)



Civ+Leader pairs that I could not decide, which group they belong in

WilliamLP: Isabella (EXP/SPI) of Inca
Pick: So WilliamLP got EXP instead of our AGG, which helps with the starting speed, but the reason why I'm still a bit jealous is that Inca is despite nerfs a strong civ. Weakened or not, full-priced or with the hammer reduction: Terrace will still be the first build in many cities and it will solve your immediate border pop problems. (We have our cheap barracks, but granary first will probably still be the case most of the time and our AGG barracks will hopefully be in effect monuments during the first phase of the game)
Player: I haven't followed William's actions in the recent pitbosses, but somehow I have a feeling that he is decent. If he ends up being our neighbor, we should do some studying

Bigger/Lewwyn: Gandhi (PHI/SPI) of China
Pick: Bigwyn's got PHI instead of our AGG. I think it's fair to say that PHI is still stronger economic trait than AGG. (Our dislike previously was mostly due to the fact that we did not want to play a GP-focused game). And actually there are only 3 PHI civs in the game, which means that getting Pyramids is not completely impossible. And of course there is the normal synergy between SPI & PHI. But what I'm truly jealous of are China's starting techs! Agri/Mining would have been put into great use at least with our start!
Players: I don't know what to say of this team. They are capable, that's sure. If I'm not mistaken both are still lacking a great dominating performance, but have played several solid games. Correct me if I'm wrong!



Civ+Leader pairs that are in the same ballpark or slightly weaker than ours

Ichabod/Wetbandit: Shaka (AGG/EXP) of Greece
Pick: Ichabod&Wetbandit received Shaka, which is quite an interesting leader. Compared to our pair they get a faster start, but don't get to play with civics as freely as we do. Since Greece is not an exceptional civ, I would in the end prefer our pairing to theirs, but not by a huge margin, EXP has so many nice production bonuses in the RBMod.
Players: Ichabod is funny, but his playing level varies. If they put effort into this, the outcome can be very good. Leisure gaming is probably not good enough here (although I don't know much about Mr. Bandit and his skills)

dtay: Alexander (AGG/PHI) of Germany
Pick: This is another leader that I'm not too afraid of. Again, PHI can be potentially exploited quite nicely and they can do well, but despite the RBMod improvements, Germany is not the strongest civ in the field
Players: Dtay is a new face, but I guess it's better to assume that he knows what he is doing

retep: Sitting Bull (PHI/PRO) of Khmer
Pick: PHI for economy, cheah granaries to speed up the expansion. Nerfed Elephants are still usable. Overall this combo sounds solid, but there are no really shining synergies that would boost this combination into upper category.
Player: Retep is another new face, who apparently is quite good, but I have followed his actions only very little.

Slowcheetah: Ramesses (IND/SPI) of Mongolia
Pick: I'm not a huge fan of IND in a 17 person game, although it does make various wonder strategies significantly more viable. Ramesses is one of the leaders that might be suited e.g. for a mids-play. Keshik is an UU that you don't want to see in the hands of your direct neighbor. Overall I like this combo less than our own due to non-existent economical boost from traits & civ
Player: Slowcheetah started strongly in PB8, although part of the success is probably explained by an isolated and peaceful start. However, somehow slow did not manage to roll his snowball through the mid-game. Due to limited reporting I can't really say the reason behind it. Nevertheless, I expect from slow again a solid economical start and a relevant role in the game.

mostly_harmless: Qin Shi Huang (IND/PRO) of Sumeria
Pick: Cheap forges and granaries + an option to go for wonders. That is already a significant bonus, but not such a huge boost that we should be scared. Yet. Sumeria is on its own decent, and helps mostly harmless to manage the expansion phase of the game.
Player: From what I've read, mostly_harmless also has skills to play a very good game. If we get Sumeria as a neighbor, I definitely should study one of his threads.

Azza: Joao (EXP/IMP) of Dutch
Pick: Nerfed EXP, improved IMP. Overall Joao is still a rexing machine. It is quite a bit map dependent whether Joao is awesome or only okay. Joao is a leader that could have really used Sumeria as a supporting civ.
Player: I have a feeling that Azza could achieve significantly better results than he has so far. I think he should just half the amount of games that he plays and spend double the time on the games he is playing. Well, we'll see how Azza manages this time. If he is not our neighbor I hope he does well!

suttree: Huayna Capac (FIN/IND) of Spain
Pick: As said many times, I still value FIN, but am not so impressed of IND or Spain. However, suttree might well have a classical Spain+lake/coast start and thus have a lock on religion. In his place I might even go for it. In 17 person game that is all but guaranteed.
Player: Suttree seems to be quite a good new face, but of course I, as everyone else, does not yet know much about him.

Bacchus: Suryavarman (CRE/EXP) of Carthage
Pick: Nerfed Sury still makes your expansion faster and easier. +2 culture is simply practical, saves hammers and leaves room to focus on other stuff. In addition, cheap cothons sound quite juicy. Bacchus needs to exploit his traits into a strong position in the early game if he wants to have a chance.
Player: I know nothing about him!



We!

Fintourist/Old Harry: Montezuma (AGG/SPI) of Babylon
The reason why I consider our own combo as an average or slightly-below average pairing is that we do have 2 nice all-around traits, but I think we will suffer due to the fact that we don't have either a trait that significantly boosts our economy (AGG does luckily a bit) or speeds up our expansion. Additionally, if we don't get an agri resource our civ is almost blank. (well bowmans might be useful..)

These evaluations were done pretty quickly and quite intuitively so don't murder me if I have mistakes or if I have made some kind of illogical claims!

[BRickAstley]

[Fintourist]

Thanks brick!

Here are my initial thoughts via mobile phone:

Positive
- Agri resource
- plenty of food
- some production potential with at least 4 hills if SIP
- 7 forests to chop if SIP

Negative
- very limited commerce potential (no rivers or resources, only couple of grassland tiles + coast)
- no happy resources
- only 7 forests

Other
- neither of PH plants seem viable based on current information as they both lose 2 out of 3 food resources
- we could move 1W and gain 1 forest, but it will delay improvement of corn by 1 turn. Additionally the bare grassland hill is in my dreams promising
- all the other starting tiles lose at least 1 food resource
- our first scout movement could be SE-E or maybe SE-SE

So the conclusion is: We got 3 nice food resources, some production potential and can get our civ going, but our capital most definitely can't carry our research. Whether this start is good or bad depends of course solely on what our opponents have. Well, lets make the most out of our start regardless of that!

[Old Harry]

My thoughts are move the scout SE-SE - it's not a hill but it will let us see tiles to the south that the hill won't.

Settle in place is probably the only option, with that food we should get up and running quickly, I'd assume we have something else in the fog too though, so lets move the scout first.

If we SIP I guess worker->work boat->work boat, and Fishing->Mining->BW but I need a sandbox before saying anything more detailed than that. I'll see about creating one tomorrow (evening) unless you beat me to it...

Moving our capital to a stronger cottage/production location later on in the game looks likely to me.

Oh and thanks Krill, Mardoc and especially Rowain - interesting read!

[Old Harry]

Starting work on that sandbox now...

[Old Harry]

Sandbox ready (don't assume I've got it all right by the way, but I did set the size to Large in worldbuilder) https://dl.dropbox.com/s/1gdo6jfnmh9xjkv...dSwordSave

A couple of notes from my first play through - settling 1W allows us to hook fish a turn sooner but means corn is hooked a turn later. We're going worker first so the corn is more important to hook.

Going fishing->mining->BW means we don't get BW until t31 and the starting worker sits around doing nothing from t22 on.

Mining->BW->fishing gets us BW and size 2 on t24 and means the worker spends three turns roading after improving the corn.


Gotta run, I'll let you show me how its done...