How would MoO 2's new races fit in MoO1?

[Zeraan]

As some of you may know, I'm creating a direct copy of Master of Orion 1's gameplay features to start off as a base, then start adding features that allows it to play as MoO 2, then eventually modding support and other extra features. However, the problem is, I will have three extra races that will be useable in "MoO 2" mode, but what should they do if it's in MoO 1 mode? What abilities should each of those races have? I think I may have some ideas, but you all are way more hardcore than I am (I can't even beat Hard difficulty yet), so I'd like your feedback! Also, what strengths and weaknesses should they have in terms of research fields?

Elerians - Their powers are telepathic, if I remember correctly, they have the entire map visible to them? This can be done in MoO 1, but is this really enough advantage to set them apart from other races? What other attributes will fit their race and put them on equal footing with others? Ability to convert ground troops to your side during ground combat (switching sides)?

Computer - Average
Construction - Average
Force Field - Poor
Planetology - Good
Propulsion - Good
Weapons - Average

Gnolams - This one is a bit more obvious, we could have them be good traders, like Humans, but it's not enough. Maybe have their homeworld be either Rich or Ultra Rich, and no other racial perks aside from trading?

Computer - Good
Construction - Good
Force Field - Average
Planetology - Poor
Propulsion - Average
Weapons - Average

Triliarians - Maybe have +25% max population on all planets? (In MoO 2, Klackons have Subterranean, but MoO 1 don't have this)

Computer - Average
Construction - Average
Force Field - Average
Planetology - Excellent
Propulsion - Average
Weapons - Average

[RefSteel]

Before I started writing this post, I was inclined to think the new races in MoO2 simply wouldn't fit in MoO.

But that's a boring answer, so I put together a really long post full of suggestions for what MIGHT work if you wanted to try it anyway ... and by the time I was done, I had to go back and change these first two paragraphs because finding out how the new races played might really be fun!

If you do want to add new races, I think it would be best to differentiate them as much as possible both from one another and from the existing ones. In the examples you list, for instance: Causing a small number of soldiers to switch sides would be ~indistinguishable from a generic ground combat bonus (redundant with Bulrathi) and a trade bonus would obviously be redundant with humans. I like your idea for the Trilarians; while I'm concerned that they might be too powerful in MoO, the extent of their bonus could be adjusted for balance ... and they wouldn't hold a candle to your suggested Gnolam. A rich homeworld in MoO2 - which can have as many as five planets per solar system and has less-pronounced bonuses for mineral richness - is a nice bonus for the early game. A rich homeworld in MoO is pretty much a win button.

Some specific ideas, in spoilers because I went on about them for way too long:

Elerians:

In MoO2, where ground invasions are nearly pointless anyway, the telepathic Elerians (in addition to having an "Omnisicient" view of the map) can instantly take control of any planet when they destroy its space defenses, so long as they have a Cruiser (Large) or larger ship in orbit. In MoO, this would be a one-dimensional, game-breaking mechanic, so we'd have to do something completely different. How about this: Elerians don't get omniscient vision, but do automatically "explore" all colonies of any race with which they have contact, thanks to low-level telepathic impressions from rival civillians. If Elerians control the orbit of any planet that is in Revolt (due to the Rebels event or "incite revolt" sabotage spying) it becomes an Elerian world (no longer in revolt; thus they can quell their own revolts just by putting a ship in orbit) as they telepathically take advantage of the conflicts and confusion on the ground. Elerians also get double normal chances of discovering techs from captured factories (still with a maximum of 6 per world) as they telepathically interrogate the factory workers.

Tech modifiers:
Computer: Good (Helps with spying, for Incite Revolution tricks)
Construction: Average
Force Fields: Poor (Elerians are not a defensive race)
Planetology: Average
Propulsion: Good (Helps to establish contact, where their warlike advantages come into play)
Weapons: Average

Base diplomatic relations: (Elerians have relatively good diplomatic relations since their telepathic abilities help them anticipate other races' motives.)
Humans: Relaxed
Psilons: Relaxed
Alkari: Relaxed
Bulrathi: Relaxed
Darloks: Unease
Gnolam: Relaxed
All others: Neutral

Overall strength: Probably highly dependent on each particular galaxy. In a large galaxy where their nearest neighbors are Mrrshans, Darloks, Silicoids, or Meklar, they could be very weak. Up against Psilons, Bulrathi, and Gnolam in a small galaxy, they might prove very dangerous indeed.

Gnolam:

The MoO2 Gnolam are all about money - a concept that doesn't exist (as a separate thing from production) in MoO. The nearest thing that DOES exist is the planetary reserve (AKA "Imperial Treasury.") So perhaps the Gnolam could get "interest" on their treasury - perhaps the planetary reserve would simply increase by 10% (rounded down) each turn. (This amount should be adjusted for balance based on playtesting obviously.) They should NOT get a trade bonus, to preserve the distinctness of the Humans.

Tech modifiers:
Computer: Average
Construction: Good (Speed up factory construction and reduce waste to allow quicker investment in the treasury)
Force Fields: Average
Planetology: Average
Propulsion: Average
Weapons: Average

Base diplomatic relations:
Humans: Relaxed
Darloks: Unease
Elerians: Relaxed
All others: Neutral

Overall strength: Depends on the amount of interest they earn. At 10%, they're probably weakish just because their special bonus won't really come into play in the early game ... but I'm not completely sure; at 20%, increasing the tax slider would in many circumstances be a better investment than building factories. All in all, I would prefer to err on the side of "weakish" rather than risk "too strong."

Trilarians:

In MoO2, Trilarians get a strategic speed bonus (for being "Trans-dimensional") and have population-related bonuses on Terran, Ocean, and Swamp worlds (note that there are no Swamp worlds in MoO). Your idea for MoO Trilarians is rather different from this, but that's not necessarily a bad thing (see for instance the totally different Meklar in MoO and MoO2). Since you're rebuilding MoO from the ground up, your version can presumably be made to handle worlds that have different sizes for different races, and worlds that can exceed size 300, so it might be worth playtesting a Trilarian race that adds 25% (or 20% or whatever percentage playtesting suggests is ~balanced) to the base size of each world they occupy. A nice, flavorful alternative might be that they get a size bonus to Terran and Ocean worlds only, and perhaps even suffer a population penalty on planets whose environment is Arid or worse. (In case it wasn't clear, I wouldn't suggest a boost to their strategic speed.)

Tech modifiers:
Computer: Poor (Underwater electronics are difficult)
Construction: Poor (Transdimensional ocean dwellers aren't good at solid structures in regular space)
Force Fields: Average
Planetology: Good (Go go aquatic terraforming)
Propulsion: Good (Thanks to their transdimensional nature)
Weapons: Average

Base diplomatic relations: (Though not strictly fish, these water dwellers are uneasy around predator races.)
Humans: Relaxed
Mrrshans: Unease
Sakkra: Unease
Alkari: Unease
Bulrathi: Unease
Darloks: Unease
All others: Neutral

Overall strength: Depends on the amount of extra space they get, which is to say they can probably be tweaked to fit the overall game balance nicely. They'll be somewhat map-dependent, especially if the flavorful environmentally-dependent bonuses/maluses are used, but MoO is supposed to be map-dependent.

There's one more race in MoO2 though...

Custom Race:

This is surely the most fun and most-played race in MoO2. Unfortunately, this is one option that I really do think wouldn't fit with MoO. Not only does it throw the principle of uniqueness out the window, it would require a nightmare of a balancing act with the "costs" of all the myriad interacting benefits. I had to mention it I guess, but I'm glad you didn't in your post.

In any case, good luck with the project, no matter which direction you decide to go!

[Zeraan]

Before I started writing this post, I was inclined to think the new races in MoO2 simply wouldn't fit in MoO.

But that's a boring answer, so I put together a really long post full of suggestions for what MIGHT work if you wanted to try it anyway ... and by the time I was done, I had to go back and change these first two paragraphs because finding out how the new races played might really be fun!

Yeah, that was how I thought at first, the new races wouldn't fit in, but then the more I think about it, the more it looks actually possible.

Some specific ideas, in spoilers because I went on about them for way too long:

Elerians:

In MoO2, where ground invasions are nearly pointless anyway, the telepathic Elerians (in addition to having an "Omnisicient" view of the map) can instantly take control of any planet when they destroy its space defenses, so long as they have a Cruiser (Large) or larger ship in orbit. In MoO, this would be a one-dimensional, game-breaking mechanic, so we'd have to do something completely different. How about this: Elerians don't get omniscient vision, but do automatically "explore" all colonies of any race with which they have contact, thanks to low-level telepathic impressions from rival civillians. If Elerians control the orbit of any planet that is in Revolt (due to the Rebels event or "incite revolt" sabotage spying) it becomes an Elerian world (no longer in revolt; thus they can quell their own revolts just by putting a ship in orbit) as they telepathically take advantage of the conflicts and confusion on the ground. Elerians also get double normal chances of discovering techs from captured factories (still with a maximum of 6 per world) as they telepathically interrogate the factory workers.

Tech modifiers:
Computer: Good (Helps with spying, for Incite Revolution tricks)
Construction: Average
Force Fields: Poor (Elerians are not a defensive race)
Planetology: Average
Propulsion: Good (Helps to establish contact, where their warlike advantages come into play)
Weapons: Average

Base diplomatic relations: (Elerians have relatively good diplomatic relations since their telepathic abilities help them anticipate other races' motives.)
Humans: Relaxed
Psilons: Relaxed
Alkari: Relaxed
Bulrathi: Relaxed
Darloks: Unease
Gnolam: Relaxed
All others: Neutral

Overall strength: Probably highly dependent on each particular galaxy. In a large galaxy where their nearest neighbors are Mrrshans, Darloks, Silicoids, or Meklar, they could be very weak. Up against Psilons, Bulrathi, and Gnolam in a small galaxy, they might prove very dangerous indeed.

The problem with this, revolts are hard to incite in harder difficulties, and when successful, they may not always be within your Elerians' ship range. I don't think this is a consistent advantage like other races' perks. Since MoO 1 don't support multi-race population, telepathically taking over planets won't work. How about this: Elerians have the perk of seeing everything in the map, and have +2 (or +1 if 2 is too powerful) fuel range due to their ability to navigate obstacles effortlessly? This will be a big asset in beginning, but then later in the game it's not as important. Good for a blitzkrieg strategy. With your suggested diplomatic/research fields.

Gnolam:

The MoO2 Gnolam are all about money - a concept that doesn't exist (as a separate thing from production) in MoO. The nearest thing that DOES exist is the planetary reserve (AKA "Imperial Treasury.") So perhaps the Gnolam could get "interest" on their treasury - perhaps the planetary reserve would simply increase by 10% (rounded down) each turn. (This amount should be adjusted for balance based on playtesting obviously.) They should NOT get a trade bonus, to preserve the distinctness of the Humans.

Tech modifiers:
Computer: Average
Construction: Good (Speed up factory construction and reduce waste to allow quicker investment in the treasury)
Force Fields: Average
Planetology: Average
Propulsion: Average
Weapons: Average

Base diplomatic relations:
Humans: Relaxed
Darloks: Unease
Elerians: Relaxed
All others: Neutral

Overall strength: Depends on the amount of interest they earn. At 10%, they're probably weakish just because their special bonus won't really come into play in the early game ... but I'm not completely sure; at 20%, increasing the tax slider would in many circumstances be a better investment than building factories. All in all, I would prefer to err on the side of "weakish" rather than risk "too strong."

Compounding interest on reserves sounds like something that can be easily overpowered. If you have more reserves than you can spend, and it just keep on coming in, you can double production on all of your planets. And it increases micro in that you will have to manually allocate reserves to planets. But this got me thinking, the cap on production is double the normal production. What if we increase the cap to triple the production, and reduce the "corruption" to 25% so you get 75% from planets instead of 50% for the Gnolams? So if you put 100 PP into reserves, you get 75 BC. And putting triple amount of production's worth of BC into a planet will have it triple production? If a planet have 100 production, adding 100 BC doubles it to 200, but adding 200 BC triples it to 300.

Trilarians:

In MoO2, Trilarians get a strategic speed bonus (for being "Trans-dimensional") and have population-related bonuses on Terran, Ocean, and Swamp worlds (note that there are no Swamp worlds in MoO). Your idea for MoO Trilarians is rather different from this, but that's not necessarily a bad thing (see for instance the totally different Meklar in MoO and MoO2). Since you're rebuilding MoO from the ground up, your version can presumably be made to handle worlds that have different sizes for different races, and worlds that can exceed size 300, so it might be worth playtesting a Trilarian race that adds 25% (or 20% or whatever percentage playtesting suggests is ~balanced) to the base size of each world they occupy. A nice, flavorful alternative might be that they get a size bonus to Terran and Ocean worlds only, and perhaps even suffer a population penalty on planets whose environment is Arid or worse. (In case it wasn't clear, I wouldn't suggest a boost to their strategic speed.)

Tech modifiers:
Computer: Poor (Underwater electronics are difficult)
Construction: Poor (Transdimensional ocean dwellers aren't good at solid structures in regular space)
Force Fields: Average
Planetology: Good (Go go aquatic terraforming)
Propulsion: Good (Thanks to their transdimensional nature)
Weapons: Average

Base diplomatic relations: (Though not strictly fish, these water dwellers are uneasy around predator races.)
Humans: Relaxed
Mrrshans: Unease
Sakkra: Unease
Alkari: Unease
Bulrathi: Unease
Darloks: Unease
All others: Neutral

Overall strength: Depends on the amount of extra space they get, which is to say they can probably be tweaked to fit the overall game balance nicely. They'll be somewhat map-dependent, especially if the flavorful environmentally-dependent bonuses/maluses are used, but MoO is supposed to be map-dependent.

With 25% (or 20%) extra max population, it both helps and hinders Triliarians. It helps in that they can have more factories and production than other races (aside from meklars and klackons). And are more resistant to ground invasions. However, the fact that they have more factories makes it easier to capture technologies from them, and it takes longer for them to fill out a planet. And besides, I don't think the extra 25% is too powerful. Let's compare this against meklar and klackons:

At level 1 technology fields on a 100 population planet:
Meklars have 100 population, plus 400 factories, so 50 + 400 = 450 production (0.5 population production)
Klackons have 100 population, plus 200 factories, so 100 + 200 = 300 production (1 population production)
Triliarians have 125 population, plus 250 factories, so 62.5 + 250 = 312.5 production (0.5 population production)

At level 99 technology fields (assuming all gets level 7 robotic controls and terraforming 120):
Meklars have 220 population, plus 1980 factories so 440 + 1980 = 2420 production (2 population production)
Klackons have 220 population, plus 1540 factories so 880 + 1540 = 2420 production (4 population production)
Triliarians have 275 population, plus 1925 factories so 550 + 1925 = 2475 production (2 population production)

On the Orion planet (max 300 planet with all terraforming stuff and 99 tech level)
Meklars have 300 population, plus 2700 factories, so 600 + 2700 = 3300 production
Klackons have 300 population, plus 2100 factories, so 1200 + 2100 = 3300 production
Triliarians have 375 population, plus 2625 factories, so 750 + 2625 = 3375 production

At beginning, Triliarians slightly out edges klackons, but this is offset by requiring a bit more time to grow population, while meklars looks like it have the advantage, but must spend production on building factories. But at end, the three production races are roughly equal on regular planets. However, Triliarians also have the advantage of having more people to send for invasions, and resisting invasions, while klackons have the advantage of building stuff quickly in beginning. Meklars don't really have any bonus from additional factories aside from increased production.

From the math above, it looks well-balanced with the trio production races.

There's one more race in MoO2 though...

Custom Race:

This is surely the most fun and most-played race in MoO2. Unfortunately, this is one option that I really do think wouldn't fit with MoO. Not only does it throw the principle of uniqueness out the window, it would require a nightmare of a balancing act with the "costs" of all the myriad interacting benefits. I had to mention it I guess, but I'm glad you didn't in your post.

Yup, I'm not adding custom race. You can easily add races in the game in the data files, this will allow the computer players to use them as well. But customizing them in-game? That's a no-no. Maybe later, when I have a legion of testers, then I can add custom race that's balanced

Thanks for your feedback! I think we're almost there with fitting the MoO 2 races in MoO 1!

[Zeraan]

While we're on the race balancing, how can we improve the worst races to give them a higher winning chance?

Mrrshans - The worst race: Their main issue is blood feuds with other races, which makes them waste production on fleets and invasions, this is aggravated by the AI's default warlike personality. What if we reduce their relationship penalties, and boost their computer field by one level (for targeting computer technologies that couple with their racial advantage)? Maybe reduce the chance of having the warlike personality for AI?

Darloks - Their computers are Good, why not Excellent? They should be the master spies after all. This should be enough to give them a boost

Bulrathis - Since AI send massive fleets of transports in hopes that some will make it, maybe just adding this one feature will make them more balanced? Add 25% chance of successfully landing troops, and when the troop landing tech is researched, increases to 75%? So less troops are wasted, and they have a chance of taking over planets?

Any concerns with Alkaris, Meklars, Silicoids, or Sakkras that needs tweaking?

[toddestan]

The Alkari have always seemed a bit on the weak side to me. Part of this is the AI's tendency to favor small designs which doesn't work as well for the Alkari in the later stages of the game. Rather than change the Alkari's preferred ship size, maybe the Alkari could get a +3 defense level bonus on small ships (as opposed to +2 which everyone else gets)? My only concern with that is that it could be a bit overpowered in the early game, where the Alkari's defense race bonus is the most effective.

It should be noted that if the Mrrshan's initial race relations are tweaked, that would also improve things for the Alkari since they have the worst initial relationship of any two races in the game.

[Arantor]

There is one racial trait that the Gnolams have in MoO 2 that is relevant and that fits in 1: they are a Lucky race. You could legitimately nerf the bonuses just a little in exchange for a race that won't have negative events.

Been reading a lot of this site lately, as well as Sirian's writing and one of the concerns Sirian outlined, feels absolutely appropriate:

If there is little or no differentiation, your opponents will be faceless, lifeless. Outcomes are predestined. Gameplay will not vary.
If there is too much differentiation, the stronger options will dominate the weaker. Outcomes are predestined. Gameplay will not vary.

The Mrrshan, Darloks and Bulrathis are the worst affected as outlined, and I'm inclined to agree with Zeraan's analysis above.

But for the Alkari, Meklar, Silicoid and Sakkra races, that's an interesting one.

Silicoid first: as a general rule they shouldn't be drastically changed, because you're not supposed to play Silicoid the same way you might the others. The race is physically that far different. The 100% production capacity due to no spending on clean-up, the reduced tech tree, these are major characteristics and should not be altered.

Does that mean they shouldn't be touched? No, not at all. I don't disagree that their growth rate should be penalised across the board the way it is; half compared to everyone else, and the corresponding cuts in their tech tree for soil enrichment etc. make sense both thematically and practically for the race.

However, the single biggest change to the Silicoids I'd think would make a difference is their tech biases; having Computers as Good and everything else be Poor is extremely problematic. Of course, they get the 'no ecological spending' boost, but that's a diminishing return as the game goes on.

My gut instinct tells me that the way to approach the Silicoids is not to buff Computing, but to bring Computing back to base cost and bump Construction to Good. This doesn't affect their growth curve, it gives them an advantage for ship building at the price of losing their computing bonus (which means it affects spying), but doesn't give them any real practical advantages that they wouldn't have had otherwise, it just reduces their penalties.


Meklars... I wouldn't change a thing about the Meklars. They have a serious advantage that narrows over time - moreso than any other race, but their advantage is rarely able to be exploited too thoroughly by the AI; but this is not a problem with the race.


Sakkra... Their shtick is rapid expansion, their tech fits this, and being firmly ecologists, they don't really care about any of the other techs enough to either be great or poor at them. The biggest thing about the Sakkra, aside from their relative one-dimensionality, is their poor diplomatic status. As observed by Sirian, the diplomatic state of the Sakkra up front is less than wonderful. Sure, their natural expansionism is always going to be problematic diplomatically, but their natural Wary relation with the Mrrshan is unusual - there's no story reason I can see, nor is any other race relationship so poor. I'd raise Sakkra/Mrrshan to Unease and I kind of feel like upping Sakkra/Klackon to Neutral.


Alkaris... they seem very much on the weaker side. They already get a nice defensive bonus (on top of the +2 for Small ships, they're supposed to have an additional +3 to initiative and defence regardless), which is consistent with their back story, as does their technology split (Exc on Propulsion, Poor on Force Fields). Giving them even more of a defence bonus could potentially make them overpowered, but giving them any more of an attack bonus is potentially not desirable because it could make them too powerful if not tightly controlled. Sirian makes the observation that MoO is primarily a defensive, not offensive, game and the observation that the Alkari tending towards large fleets is problematic for their growth.

What might work is if the Alkaris don't get any additional bonuses but get a reduced maintenance cost, without any additional bonuses in construction tech. Instead of maintenance 6/36/200/1200, perhaps 5/30/165/1000, being approximately a 20% cut in maintenance. Playtesting and balance will ascertain whether this is appropriate enough.

[Zeraan]

There is one racial trait that the Gnolams have in MoO 2 that is relevant and that fits in 1: they are a Lucky race. You could legitimately nerf the bonuses just a little in exchange for a race that won't have negative events.

Been reading a lot of this site lately, as well as Sirian's writing and one of the concerns Sirian outlined, feels absolutely appropriate:

If there is little or no differentiation, your opponents will be faceless, lifeless. Outcomes are predestined. Gameplay will not vary.
If there is too much differentiation, the stronger options will dominate the weaker. Outcomes are predestined. Gameplay will not vary.

The Mrrshan, Darloks and Bulrathis are the worst affected as outlined, and I'm inclined to agree with Zeraan's analysis above.

But for the Alkari, Meklar, Silicoid and Sakkra races, that's an interesting one.

Silicoid first: as a general rule they shouldn't be drastically changed, because you're not supposed to play Silicoid the same way you might the others. The race is physically that far different. The 100% production capacity due to no spending on clean-up, the reduced tech tree, these are major characteristics and should not be altered.

Does that mean they shouldn't be touched? No, not at all. I don't disagree that their growth rate should be penalised across the board the way it is; half compared to everyone else, and the corresponding cuts in their tech tree for soil enrichment etc. make sense both thematically and practically for the race.

However, the single biggest change to the Silicoids I'd think would make a difference is their tech biases; having Computers as Good and everything else be Poor is extremely problematic. Of course, they get the 'no ecological spending' boost, but that's a diminishing return as the game goes on.

My gut instinct tells me that the way to approach the Silicoids is not to buff Computing, but to bring Computing back to base cost and bump Construction to Good. This doesn't affect their growth curve, it gives them an advantage for ship building at the price of losing their computing bonus (which means it affects spying), but doesn't give them any real practical advantages that they wouldn't have had otherwise, it just reduces their penalties.


Meklars... I wouldn't change a thing about the Meklars. They have a serious advantage that narrows over time - moreso than any other race, but their advantage is rarely able to be exploited too thoroughly by the AI; but this is not a problem with the race.


Sakkra... Their shtick is rapid expansion, their tech fits this, and being firmly ecologists, they don't really care about any of the other techs enough to either be great or poor at them. The biggest thing about the Sakkra, aside from their relative one-dimensionality, is their poor diplomatic status. As observed by Sirian, the diplomatic state of the Sakkra up front is less than wonderful. Sure, their natural expansionism is always going to be problematic diplomatically, but their natural Wary relation with the Mrrshan is unusual - there's no story reason I can see, nor is any other race relationship so poor. I'd raise Sakkra/Mrrshan to Unease and I kind of feel like upping Sakkra/Klackon to Neutral.


Alkaris... they seem very much on the weaker side. They already get a nice defensive bonus (on top of the +2 for Small ships, they're supposed to have an additional +3 to initiative and defence regardless), which is consistent with their back story, as does their technology split (Exc on Propulsion, Poor on Force Fields). Giving them even more of a defence bonus could potentially make them overpowered, but giving them any more of an attack bonus is potentially not desirable because it could make them too powerful if not tightly controlled. Sirian makes the observation that MoO is primarily a defensive, not offensive, game and the observation that the Alkari tending towards large fleets is problematic for their growth.

What might work is if the Alkaris don't get any additional bonuses but get a reduced maintenance cost, without any additional bonuses in construction tech. Instead of maintenance 6/36/200/1200, perhaps 5/30/165/1000, being approximately a 20% cut in maintenance. Playtesting and balance will ascertain whether this is appropriate enough.

On the topic of Gnolams and Luck, I didn't think of that. MoO 2, Lucky means you don't get bad events, only the good ones. I can also make it so that space monsters spawns at farthest point from the lucky race if the race's in the game, otherwise spawn normally.

For Silicoids, their biggest disadvantage is that they don't get terraforming techs that increases max population of a planet, this is to offset their advantage of settling any planet at start of game. Construction boost makes sense as this helps with colonization efforts. But late in game, when everything is settled, silicoids suffer from half growth speed and have no more advantages, only severe disadvantages. Maybe we can introduce a technology that is specific to Silicoids to help them in late game? The technology will eliminate the half-growth rate penalty. That's it. This might be enough to boost the silicoids in late-game, without breaking the early-game. However, in AI's hands, silicoids seem to do ok. So maybe only one of those two changes? Playtesting will be required to balance this.

Sakkra's relationships being improved will help both Mrrshans and Klackons, as well as Sakkras, by reducing the number of wars, and wasting development resources.

Alkari having cheaper fleets makes sense, since they're a natural flying race. Maybe we could introduce a new mechanism: Size affinity. If you have an affinity for small ships, they're 20% cheaper, medium is 10% cheaper, large is normal, and huge is 5% more expensive. If you have an affinity for huge ships (bulrathis for example), huge is 10% cheaper, large is 5% cheaper, medium is normal, and small is 10% more expensive (larger ships have less benefits compared to smaller ships, due to their immense cost). This can add a new method of balancing the races without tweaking other properties too much. Then we'd see fleet swarms of death from Alkari, and fleet of death stars from bulrathis. I believe that Mrrshans favor either large or medium ships?

[Arantor]

For Silicoids, their biggest disadvantage is that they don't get terraforming techs that increases max population of a planet, this is to offset their advantage of settling any planet at start of game. Construction boost makes sense as this helps with colonization efforts. But late in game, when everything is settled, silicoids suffer from half growth speed and have no more advantages, only severe disadvantages. Maybe we can introduce a technology that is specific to Silicoids to help them in late game?

Sure, they don't get the terraforming techs themselves, but they can obtain them via diplomacy or espionage or capturing an alien planet. I'm personally fine with leaving that as it is because the advantage for them of being able to grab anywhere far earlier in the game is a major advantage, as is the no-eco-spending, at least until the other races catch up (but in small galaxies, these are not exactly likely even for the Psilons)

The AI is smart enough to be able to take on board things like the growth bell curve, and it certainly knows the advantage of growing in the early game.

The thing about the Silicoids is that you're not supposed to play them like the others. The reduced growth is not something you're supposed to work around, neither is the lack of terraforming; it's by design that there's no remedy to these things. Silicoids have the advantage in computing for a reason - it helps with espionage - in fact I have wondered if the reason they have the advantage is solely to counter the poor technology.

This is why I'm in favour of pulling down Computing a notch and buffing Construction; gives them more of a chance to go it alone with respect to technology rather than having to rely on other races to provide (one way or another), whilst also limiting how much hurt they're getting elsewhere.

Thematically, Construction fits more with the Silicoids than Computing does. Being naturally rock creatures must surely lend a natural advantage to understanding rock formations. I can't help but feel the Computing buff was originally just to accommodate the fact that Silicoids were otherwise nerfed even worse than the Mrrshan.

Don't forget there is an interesting edge case for Silicoids that people don't always remember: even if you can take over a Silicoid planet, you're still going to have to pay to clean up the waste - and on top of the refit cost of taking a planet's factories, that might take a few expensive turns.

Sakkra's relationships being improved will help both Mrrshans and Klackons, as well as Sakkras, by reducing the number of wars, and wasting development resources.

Helping the Mrrshans doesn't seem like a major pain to me. They're already on the wrong end of things anyway. The kicker is Sakkra/Klackon... I was suggesting it be bumped to neutral, and that may be perhaps too high, but playtesting is the key here.

Certainly I can't see much of a reason for Sakkra/Mrrshan's attitude - I can, for example, see why everyone hates the Darloks and why everyone likes the Humans, but some of the other race relations are ill-defined at best. Sakkra/Meklar seems understandably negative: the strongest pro-ecology race vs the strongest 'anti-ecology' (Silicoids are effectively ambivalent towards it, it doesn't matter to them either way, whereas the Meklar thematically have shunned biology)

Sakkra/Klackon... this seems like thematically it would be mildly friendly. The Klackons are not an anti-ecology race, though I suppose you could argue the 'hive mind' culture (since they're glorified ants) would go against the 'free love' lizards. I don't know.

Alkari having cheaper fleets makes sense, since they're a natural flying race. Maybe we could introduce a new mechanism: Size affinity. If you have an affinity for small ships, they're 20% cheaper, medium is 10% cheaper, large is normal, and huge is 5% more expensive. If you have an affinity for huge ships (bulrathis for example), huge is 10% cheaper, large is 5% cheaper, medium is normal, and small is 10% more expensive (larger ships have less benefits compared to smaller ships, due to their immense cost). This can add a new method of balancing the races without tweaking other properties too much. Then we'd see fleet swarms of death from Alkari, and fleet of death stars from bulrathis. I believe that Mrrshans favor either large or medium ships?

Yeah, essentially that's what I was getting at, though I was essentially proposing to be primarily Alkari only. The Bulrathi already have obscene bonuses to ground pounding, remember, so I wouldn't want to make it substantially cheaper for them, but I wouldn't be opposed to, say, a 5% cut on huge ships.

I forget what the AI favours with Mrrshans, have a feeling it's medium offhand, but thematically, what makes more sense? The Alkaris are a bird race, they're going to want more and smaller to leverage their advantages with manueverability. The bears are a stodge race, they will be consolidating and as you say, favouring bigger ships.

Mrrshan bonuses and their presented culture are felinoid warriors, their bonuses are all on attacking ship to ship (vs ship to ship defence or ground combat), the advantage of better targeting on guns actually should make sense on all sizes of ship. They don't, IIRC, have any significant advantages anywhere else (e.g. construction) that would encourage bigger ships in a given class, either, so there's no thematic or practical advantage owed to the Mrrshan on a given size of ship.

It's why the Mrrshan lose so badly the way they do, really. I think the AI favours medium ships, and there is an argument for that - with their better targeting they should be able to do more damage per ship that way, but it's almost a by-product than an actual meaningful factor.

I'd be inclined to try it primarily with the Alkari first before worrying about the other races, but yes, the idea of having it tweakable per race is definitely a good idea.

[TerryMulvaney]

Before I started writing this post, I was inclined to think the new races in MoO2 simply wouldn't fit in MoO.

But that's a boring answer, so I put together a really long post full of suggestions for what MIGHT work if you wanted to try it anyway ... and by the time I was done, I had to go back and change these first two paragraphs because finding out how the new races played might really be fun!

If you do want to add new races, I think it would be best to differentiate them as much as possible both from one another and from the existing ones. In the examples you list, for instance: Causing a small number of soldiers to switch sides would be ~indistinguishable from a generic ground combat bonus (redundant with Bulrathi) and a trade bonus would obviously be redundant with humans. I like your idea for the Trilarians; while I'm concerned that they might be too powerful in MoO, the extent of their bonus could be adjusted for balance ... and they wouldn't hold a candle to your suggested Gnolam. A rich homeworld in MoO2 - which can have as many as five planets per solar panels and has less-pronounced bonuses for mineral richness - is a nice bonus for the early game. A rich homeworld in MoO is pretty much a win button.

Some specific ideas, in spoilers because I went on about them for way too long:

Elerians:

In MoO2, where ground invasions are nearly pointless anyway, the telepathic Elerians (in addition to having an "Omnisicient" view of the map) can instantly take control of any planet when they destroy its space defenses, so long as they have a Cruiser (Large) or larger ship in orbit. In MoO, this would be a one-dimensional, game-breaking mechanic, so we'd have to do something completely different. How about this: Elerians don't get omniscient vision, but do automatically "explore" all colonies of any race with which they have contact, thanks to low-level telepathic impressions from rival civillians. If Elerians control the orbit of any planet that is in Revolt (due to the Rebels event or "incite revolt" sabotage spying) it becomes an Elerian world (no longer in revolt; thus they can quell their own revolts just by putting a ship in orbit) as they telepathically take advantage of the conflicts and confusion on the ground. Elerians also get double normal chances of discovering techs from captured factories (still with a maximum of 6 per world) as they telepathically interrogate the factory workers.

Tech modifiers:
Computer: Good (Helps with spying, for Incite Revolution tricks)
Construction: Average
Force Fields: Poor (Elerians are not a defensive race)
Planetology: Average
Propulsion: Good (Helps to establish contact, where their warlike advantages come into play)
Weapons: Average

Base diplomatic relations: (Elerians have relatively good diplomatic relations since their telepathic abilities help them anticipate other races' motives.)
Humans: Relaxed
Psilons: Relaxed
Alkari: Relaxed
Bulrathi: Relaxed
Darloks: Unease
Gnolam: Relaxed
All others: Neutral

Overall strength: Probably highly dependent on each particular galaxy. In a large galaxy where their nearest neighbors are Mrrshans, Darloks, Silicoids, or Meklar, they could be very weak. Up against Psilons, Bulrathi, and Gnolam in a small galaxy, they might prove very dangerous indeed.

Gnolam:

The MoO2 Gnolam are all about money - a concept that doesn't exist (as a separate thing from production) in MoO. The nearest thing that DOES exist is the planetary reserve (AKA "Imperial Treasury.") So perhaps the Gnolam could get "interest" on their treasury - perhaps the planetary reserve would simply increase by 10% (rounded down) each turn. (This amount should be adjusted for balance based on playtesting obviously.) They should NOT get a trade bonus, to preserve the distinctness of the Humans.

Tech modifiers:
Computer: Average
Construction: Good (Speed up factory construction and reduce waste to allow quicker investment in the treasury)
Force Fields: Average
Planetology: Average
Propulsion: Average
Weapons: Average

Base diplomatic relations:
Humans: Relaxed
Darloks: Unease
Elerians: Relaxed
All others: Neutral

Overall strength: Depends on the amount of interest they earn. At 10%, they're probably weakish just because their special bonus won't really come into play in the early game ... but I'm not completely sure; at 20%, increasing the tax slider would in many circumstances be a better investment than building factories. All in all, I would prefer to err on the side of "weakish" rather than risk "too strong."

Trilarians:

In MoO2, Trilarians get a strategic speed bonus (for being "Trans-dimensional") and have population-related bonuses on Terran, Ocean, and Swamp worlds (note that there are no Swamp worlds in MoO). Your idea for MoO Trilarians is rather different from this, but that's not necessarily a bad thing (see for instance the totally different Meklar in MoO and MoO2). Since you're rebuilding MoO from the ground up, your version can presumably be made to handle worlds that have different sizes for different races, and worlds that can exceed size 300, so it might be worth playtesting a Trilarian race that adds 25% (or 20% or whatever percentage playtesting suggests is ~balanced) to the base size of each world they occupy. A nice, flavorful alternative might be that they get a size bonus to Terran and Ocean worlds only, and perhaps even suffer a population penalty on planets whose environment is Arid or worse. (In case it wasn't clear, I wouldn't suggest a boost to their strategic speed.)

Tech modifiers:
Computer: Poor (Underwater electronics are difficult)
Construction: Poor (Transdimensional ocean dwellers aren't good at solid structures in regular space)
Force Fields: Average
Planetology: Good (Go go aquatic terraforming)
Propulsion: Good (Thanks to their transdimensional nature)
Weapons: Average

Base diplomatic relations: (Though not strictly fish, these water dwellers are uneasy around predator races.)
Humans: Relaxed
Mrrshans: Unease
Sakkra: Unease
Alkari: Unease
Bulrathi: Unease
Darloks: Unease
All others: Neutral

Overall strength: Depends on the amount of extra space they get, which is to say they can probably be tweaked to fit the overall game balance nicely. They'll be somewhat map-dependent, especially if the flavorful environmentally-dependent bonuses/maluses are used, but MoO is supposed to be map-dependent.

There's one more race in MoO2 though...

Custom Race:

This is surely the most fun and most-played race in MoO2. Unfortunately, this is one option that I really do think wouldn't fit with MoO. Not only does it throw the principle of uniqueness out the window, it would require a nightmare of a balancing act with the "costs" of all the myriad interacting benefits. I had to mention it I guess, but I'm glad you didn't in your post.

In any case, good luck with the project, no matter which direction you decide to go!

Your ideas seems to be very interesting but were you able to sind some solution to fit these races in MoO? I hope there was positive ending of the project.

[Zeraan]

Your ideas seems to be very interesting but were you able to sind some solution to fit these races in MoO? I hope there was positive ending of the project.

Yes, there is a good ending to this project. The reason I asked this question is for Beyond Beyaan since I will have 3 extra races that needs to fit in this game. Whitemage and I discussed this, and this is what we came up with, not just for the new 3 races, but tweaks to existing races to balance it out. Note that in BB, there won't be "AI personality" or "Relationship Table", so all AI plays the same, but taking in factor their racial perks, and all start with neutral relationship with each other (subject to balance changes as we play-test):

Humans loses diplomacy bonus due to all races starting at neutral. So they get "Finances" advantage which is 30% discount on upkeeps of ships, bases, spying, and security. Propulsion is set to average.

Mrrshans gets a boost in Computer Tech affinity to Good, and +1 additional attack level.

Silicoids changes Construction to Good, Force field and Propulsion to Average. Cloning and Advanced cloning reduces growth penalty by 50% and 100% respectively, but only when actively cloning. Passive growth still have 50% growth penalty.

Sakkra downgrades propulsion to poor, and reduce growth by 10%

Psilons loses their 150% research point bonus (1.5 for each PP), and boosts all except Computer's affinity to Excellent (from ~53% tech cost to ~60%, a slight nerf, but computer is nerfed from ~53% to 80%)

Alkari gets 20% reduced ship maintenance cost

Klackons gets 10% scale back from current population construction bonus

Bulrathis - Gets 20% chance of successfully landing troops, with troop landing tech, it increases to 70%. Construction changed to Average, Force Field to Good

Meklars stays the same

Darloks changes Computer to Excellent, and weapon to Poor

For new races, this is how they will fit in:

Elerians - Automatically explores all planets of any empire that they get in contact with. Gets double the technologies discovered on artifacts and Orion, and doubles the chance of capturing technologies from captured planets. Sees owner flag on all colonized planets without exploration, also sees where Orion and artifacts planets are. +2 fuel range to base fuel range.

Gnolams:
All ships have +50% HP, and +2 shield (works even when there's no shield tech added, and even in nebula). Lucky race in that only good events apply, negative events are ignored.

Triliarians:
+1 Warp speed. +1 Combat speed. +15% max pop per planet.

Tech affinity table:

Code:

Race    |Computers|Constructn|Force Fields|Planetolgy|Propulsn|Weapons
________|_________|__________|____________|__________|________|_______
Alkari  | ------- | -------- |    Poor    | -------- |Excellnt| -----
Bulrathi|  Poor   |  -----   |    Good    | -------- | ------ |  Good
Darlok  |Excellent| -------- | ---------- | -------- | ------ |  Poor
Human   | ------- | -------- | Excellent  |   Good   |  ----  | -----
Klackon | ------- |Excellent | ---------- | -------- |  Poor  | -----
Meklar  |Excellent| -------- | ---------- |   Poor   | ------ | -----
Mrrshan |  Good   |   Poor   | ---------- | -------- | ------ |Excllent
Psilon  |  Good   |Excellent | Excellent  |Excellent |Excellnt|Excllent
Sakkra  | ------- | -------- | ---------- |Excellent |  Poor  | -----
Silicoid|  -----  |   Good   |    Good    |   Poor   | -----  |  Poor
Elerian |  Good   | -------- |    Poor    |   ----   |  Good  | -----
Gnolam  | ------- |   Good   | ---------- |   ----   | ------ | -----
Triliria|  Poor   |   Poor   | ---------- |   Good   |  Good  |  Good