For a forum that prides itself on trying new things, for the love of all that is novel and interesting, please can we have a new QotM? - Krill

Create an account  

 
Master of Orion the SwanSong patch (1.40n)

(May 26th, 2015, 16:37)Sullla Wrote:
(May 26th, 2015, 12:24)zowee77 Wrote: Thank you for the reply. Really Kyrub has done most of the work I would just like to make modifications to where the game does not end when you get voted in by the council or make modifications to where everyone will not declare war on you if you abstain. To be honest all of the years I have played Master of Orion that to me was the only real complaint I had even though there are various other bugs present. I know to many this is a feature and I understand why it would be the nature of the game but for me it would be great to have the option to have it both ways. If you want it that way great but I think many people like myself like at the very least to have at least some flexibility other than having to fight everyone if you abstain or have the game abruptly end when you get voted in and not at least have a choice to continue.

Hmmm, I don't quite understand this request. You can always choose to abstain in the Galactic Senate voting; you never have to vote for your own empire. It's always possible to keep playing further, even if the player has long since crushed all opposition.

I think you misunderstand the premise. It's not about keeping the game going after you win, it's more about preventing a premature end of the game when one of the computers wins a council vote. This can happen through no fault of the player's. Just when the game was starting to get good, a bunch of minor powers vote for the Sakkra and boom! Game over. Without even a "insert quarter to continue".
Reply

[/quote]
I think you misunderstand the premise. It's not about keeping the game going after you win, it's more about preventing a premature end of the game when one of the computers wins a council vote. This can happen through no fault of the player's. Just when the game was starting to get good, a bunch of minor powers vote for the Sakkra and boom! Game over. Without even a "insert quarter to continue".
[/quote]

Absolutely that is exactly what I was referring too. It would be great to have the option to continue that way a premature ending to the game would not occur that is beyond the players control. If nothing else either add the option to activate the modification on the DOS command line or better yet just integrate into the game as an option. I in no way want to take away how the game currently handles the council vote since I know for many this part of the experience that they have gotten used to over the years, but it would be great to be have the option to choose.
Reply

(May 28th, 2015, 02:04)Tiltowait Wrote: I think you misunderstand the premise. It's not about keeping the game going after you win, it's more about preventing a premature end of the game when one of the computers wins a council vote. This can happen through no fault of the player's. Just when the game was starting to get good, a bunch of minor powers vote for the Sakkra and boom! Game over. Without even a "insert quarter to continue".

The human player already has so many advantages over the AI and it's well-documented shortcomings. Why make it even easier for the player? How would you feel f you scored a quick diplomatic victory and the game responded, "Sorry, the Psilons think the game was just getting interesting. Your Council victory has been nullified".

Sometimes you lose, even when it's not really your fault. That's life! Instead of changing the game to remove one way that you lost, why not just start over with a new game?
Reply

(May 28th, 2015, 07:35)Ray F Wrote:
(May 28th, 2015, 02:04)Tiltowait Wrote: I think you misunderstand the premise. It's not about keeping the game going after you win, it's more about preventing a premature end of the game when one of the computers wins a council vote. This can happen through no fault of the player's. Just when the game was starting to get good, a bunch of minor powers vote for the Sakkra and boom! Game over. Without even a "insert quarter to continue".

The human player already has so many advantages over the AI and it's well-documented shortcomings. Why make it even easier for the player? How would you feel f you scored a quick diplomatic victory and the game responded, "Sorry, the Psilons think the game was just getting interesting. Your Council victory has been nullified".

Sometimes you lose, even when it's not really your fault. That's life! Instead of changing the game to remove one way that you lost, why not just start over with a new game?

I understand your point. I also notice that a couple of games are in development including Java-Moo which I think will be fantastic. However it would be a great option to have until those games are completed. I understand the point you make about the AI shortcomings but the Swansong patch has fixed some of the major ones and compared to some of the other 4X games that have been released over the years have left allot to be desired in my opinion especially compared to MOO. That being said I am still not sure why not giving the option to continue the game is really a huge deal. If you don't like it don't use it. Really no harm I would not think.....
Reply

(May 28th, 2015, 07:35)Ray F Wrote: The human player already has so many advantages over the AI and it's well-documented shortcomings. Why make it even easier for the player? How would you feel f you scored a quick diplomatic victory and the game responded, "Sorry, the Psilons think the game was just getting interesting. Your Council victory has been nullified".
Because I'm the human player and the game revolves around me. This isn't a case of "humans beating up on the computer players" (which don't use AI btw), it's a case of the human player wanting to modify one of the game's features to make it more fun for himself. Let's face it, MoO is over 20 years old and is lucky to have any players at all at this point. Every game ever played has been with the Galactic Council rules in full effect. It's a good time to try something different.

Quote:Sometimes you lose, even when it's not really your fault. That's life! Instead of changing the game to remove one way that you lost, why not just start over with a new game?
I'd really rather not start again from nothing, after I've invested a few hours into a game and things seem to be going in an interesting direction.

Games have had a "continue" feature since the arcade era. That's all we really need here.
Reply

(May 29th, 2015, 08:40)Tiltowait Wrote: Games have had a "continue" feature since the arcade era. That's all we really need here.

If it's so trivial, then why haven't you already done it?
Reply

I saw something odd in a game with 1.40n.  Here's the description:

Summary:
I invaded an enemy planet.  I found techs in the conquered factories.  The first tech that I found was *given* to every other player.

Reproducible.   Saved game attached.

TL;DR
Version: kyrub's 1.40n patch for Master of Orion (MoO)1
(updated from kyrub's 1.40m version)

Game parms: Psilons; 4 opps (Alkaris, Darloks, Meklars, Sakkras);  Small; Impossible;

The Darloks had colonized 6 planets by ~2350 (including an Arid 55 with Artifacts).  They were the most powerful empire during most of the game.  But by 2467, the Darloks were at war with everybody but the Meklars.

I (the Psilons) invaded Incedius (one of the Darlok planets) in 2467.  I conquered it, captured ~180 factories, and found several new techs. The first of those techs was Battle Computer VIII (bc8; a level 35 tech).

During the next several turns, I discovered that *every* other race also possessed bc8.  How did they get bc8?

Before 2467, no other player (other than the Darloks) possessed any other computer tech above level 20 (bc5).  So, because they didn't have any computer techs in the levels 26-30, they couldn't have *researched* a level 35 tech.

Did the other races *trade* for bc8?  I don't see how.  bc8 was the Darloks' highest level computer tech.  IIUC, no computer player will trade their highest level tech (in any category).

Besides that, the Darloks were still at war with everybody but the Meklars.  I.e. the Darloks wouldn't trade with their enemies.

Did all of the other three races *steal* bc8 from the Darloks (or from me)?  That seems very, very unlikely.


Subsequently, I restored the saved game (from just prior to that turn) and replayed it many, many times.  As a result of those tests, I found that the "give the first tech I find to every race" effect is repeatable.

It doesn't happen *every* time.  On average, I'd estimate that it appears ~30% of the time.  But, during my tests, I've seen it happen many times.

(The frequency may be higher than 30% because there are at least three techs (Terraforming +40, Advanced Eco Restoration, and Ion Cannon) for which the effect is invisible - because all the other races already have those techs.)

The level of the tech doesn't matter.  The category of the tech doesn't matter.  E.g., during my replays I've seen the other races magically obtain Improved Space Scanner, Reduced Industrial Waste 60%, Personal Absorption Shield, Death Spores, Terraforming +50, Energy Pulsar, Uridium Cells, MegaBolt Cannon, etc.


Here are some other circumstances which may be relevant:

1) On that same turn, I destroyed 4 missile bases on another Darlok planet.

2) Immediately before my troops invaded Incedius (i.e. the Darlok planet that I conquered), I bombed it (to reduce the number of defenders).

3) Many times, at the end of that turn, at least one other race would contact me.  If the Darloks contacted me, they always asked for peace. Sometimes the Alkaris and/or Sakkras would contact me to ask for peace too.  IIRC, I refused all those offers.

Other times the Alkaris and/or Sakkras would contact me to say things like "It seems we have a common enemy - the Darloks."

(At first, I thought that those contacts triggered the "give the first tech I find to every race" effect.  But numerous replays disproved that.)



So what causes the "give the first tech I find to every race" effect?  I don't know.  I suspect that it happens somewhere in 1.40n's diplomacy routines.

In contrast, kyrub's previous patch version (1.40m) does not exhibit this problem AFAICS.

I.e. I reverted STARMAP.EXE back to kyrub's version 1.40m and tried to reproduce the "give the first tech I find to every race" effect on it.  I couldn't do it.

I replayed that turn under 1.40m ~25 times and I never saw that effect.  During each replay, I did 1) and 2).  And I saw all of the types of contacts that I described in 3) during those replays.

But I never saw the "give the first tech I find to every race" effect under 1.40m.  That is good news.  And it suggests a circumvention.  I.e. before you play a turn during which your troops may conquer another race's planet:

a) Save the game and quit MoO.

b) Rename 1.40n's STARMAP.EXE to sm140n.

c) Install 1.40m's STARMAP.EXE.

d) Start MoO, restore the game, and play the turn.

e) Save the game and quit MoO.

f) Rename 1.40m's STARMAP.EXE to sm140m.

g) Rename sm140n to STARMAP.EXE.

h) Start MoO, restore the game, and continue playing.

-- 

Eddie


Attached Files
.zip   year2467.zip (Size: 12.05 KB / Downloads: 1)
Reply

Hello, tell me which version is the best, most advanced, 1.40 N or 1.40 M?
Reply



Forum Jump: