Below I tried to analyze the cultural inspirations for each civ, going back to the times of Tolkein. Now, Fantasy lore has a way of evolving into something completely different and everyone has their own interpretation, but I think that we can some of the correlations VERY right, and others are only going to be half right or partially correct. There is no 1:1 comparison, nevertheless I have compiled a list of which BTS civ represents which FFH2 civs.
It is attached as an excel spreadsheet, with a brief explanation next to it. I encourage competing lists, or just alternates mentioned in the comments.
Sumeria____________Khazad
Babylon____________Luchuirp
Native Americans____Ljosalfar
Zulu_______________Clan of Embers - originally inspired by the Anglo-Zulu war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulu_(1964_film)
Mongolians_________ Hippus
Russians___________Bannor -ideal of the 'Champion' (statue of St.George slaying the Dragon), focus on military service
Japan______________Hyborem
Holy Roman Empire__Basium
France_____________Calabim -the french Aristocracy
Rome_____________Kuriotates - Rome megacity, accepting all cultures into the multicultural empire
China____________ Illians
Germany_________ Amurites
Aztecs____________ Sheaim - Human Sacrifice
India_____________ Elohim
Arabia____________ Malakim
Maya _____________ Sidar
Dutch_____________ Grigori - Human Endeavor, Non-religious focus. Was at one time at war with entire Holy Roman Empire
Inca______________ Svartalfar
England___________ Lanun - Largest Sea-based Empire
Egypt _____________ Balseraphs
Celts______________ Charadon - Nature focused(Hunting), has an Agg/Charismatic leader
(March 7th, 2015, 10:08)Kragroth Wrote: I think some of these are a good fit. Japan would not be happy being called Hyborem though
I agree. However I placed them as that only b/c of a post I read once regarding Japan being represented as the demonic civ only b/c of their rich lore in different Yomi etc in their superstitions. Perhaps it is not the best fit as other nations likely have similar mythologies, and of course you get Daemonology in Europe during the middle ages, but as far as ancient folk lore is concerned, as far as I currently know it would appear that Japan has perhaps the most? lore about this? Of course none of this has any malice or discrimination intended. It would probably have been more appropriate to not include the two extraplanar civs, though I felt it would be more fun to include them anyways.
Honestly, I don't think any of them fit. Like, about half the time I can see what you're going for, but even then it's a big stretch. Like...take England. Sure it's the largest maritime nation, but thematically and at every level beyond the superficial, it's far removed from the Lanun. If anything the Lanun would be closer to Portugal, or the Dutch but even then....I just can't see it. Even with the increased focus on the sea, the roles fulfilled are just too different between a decentralized pirate civilization and a maritime and mercantile empire. And that's just one example.
Civs in real life/BTS just never have the thematic concentration to align with FFH, they fit too many roles and are (generally) too similar.
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I partially agree with Portugal, but Britain bought more privateers. None of the comparisons are 100% but I mean as far as cultural inspiration for the civ ... and the fact that no-one is a perfectly correct fit is just part of the challenge.
I bet that not many people realize that the vast majority of pirates that worked for Britain were escaped AFRICAN slaves from the Portuguese (and British) colonies. If they escaped and succeeded as pirates their former owners would pay them handsomely to pirate the OTHER nations, and often a rich african pirate would have a mansion across the street from a British officer. (in the Carribean)
(March 7th, 2015, 14:52)Tasunke Wrote: I partially agree with Portugal, but Britain bought more privateers. None of the comparisons are 100% but I mean as far as cultural inspiration for the civ ... and the fact that no-one is a perfectly correct fit is just part of the challenge.
I get this, I just disagree. Afaic, FFH civs aren't at all related to BTS ones, or, if they are, it's the exception to the trend. I mean, what is the inspiration for the Lanun, returning to the previous example? It isn't England, or Portugal, or Spain or anything. It's the concept and aggregated tales and cultural image of pirates. It isn't even inspired, particularly, by pirating societies like Tortuga and so on - there's no comparison to be drawn there, because it's inspired by our concept and archetype of pirates much more so than the reality. The same with, say Balseraphs (although I get the feeling you just gave them Egypt to even out the numbers) which arise from the concept of evil clowns as opposed to any particular civilization. And the list goes on.
Sure there's various bits and pieces that are taken from one or the other - the Hippian pastoral society/mounted dominance (although more from one of the tribes whose name I can never remember than the Mongols), the super cities of the Kurios (though I think more of renaissance Venice or another city state than Rome), the military state and crusade of the Bannor, and so on. But I think the inspirations are almost universally concepts and ideas rather than direct parallels to the real world.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
Hippus would be most closely related to Poland ofc, but there is no Polish civ at the moment. If you have a different tribe in mind please let me know.
As far as FFH2 being archetypes I would agree. Now, which nations set the playing field in order for those archetypes to be created? For the Orks it was the Zulu fighting the English in Southern Africa. For the Lanun, it's Pirating in general, a thing that wouldn't have been possible without European Colonialism in the Americas and the Atlantic Slave trade, a combination particularly perpetrated by England and Portugal. (Yes Spain did have more colonialism in the Americas, and France had a fair pace as well, but only America and Portugal combined this with buying a significant number of slaves from Africa for their mines, farms, and plantations. Specifically Sugar plantations in Portuguese Brazil and Cotton Plantations in South Carolina. Ofc Spain had silver mines but iirc didn't use african slaves, at least not as much, and Britain also had tobacco plantations a bit more north but those iirc weren't originally worked exclusively by African slaves.)
And if we remember, Pirates are one of the first true bastions of the 'freedom' archetype. Free as a Pirate, something originally perhaps spearheaded by the Vikings, even if it was more state-mandated (in a time before nation states), but Pirates were, if barbaric in nature, truly free from the constraints of society, and even sometimes sponsored and tolerated by states.
There is no accident that the majority of Pirates were escaped African slaves. In many cases "Living the Dream" for an african slave in the Americas was to escape from slavery and make a life as a pirate. Perhaps come to own a mansion and many ships, owning an empire of his own on the high seas. So, without the Atlantic Slave trade, without European Colonialism in the Americas, and without State Sponsorship (but not ownership) of these Pirates and Privateers ... without all three of these things you wouldn't have the Pirate archetype that you have today. And only England and Portugal fulfill all 3 requirements. Historically England just so happened to be better at using pirates to her advantage ... but both Civs were well on their way to creating the archetype.
Quote:Now, which nations set the playing field in order for those archetypes to be created?::
That's an incredibly esoteric way to make a connection. Even then, Balseraphs, for example. Where did the evil clown trope come from? Apart from clowning (which I've had the misfortune of studying...) it basically came about from movies. So should it be associated with the Americans? No, because making that connection is deceitful. Let's go a step further, and pretend I've looked up Evil clowns, and it actually is descended from...let's say Russian folklore of the 19th century. So should we make a connection there, and say that the Balseraphs arose from Russian inspiration? No, because the two civilizations are nothing alike at any level, and there's no way that Kael was thinking of Russia when he threw them together. That's why I feel your comparison and setup falls apart. The same with the Lanun - sure, perhaps the English actions and treatment of privateers is what led to many of our myths of pirating (I'd dispute that, but it's been ages since I read up on the subject and it's really not relevant) but...so what? That doesn't mean that Kael had them in mind, and no one looks at the Lanun and thinks "now who does this remind me of...oh yes, the British Empire!"
That connection doesn't really exist in peoples minds. There are basically two ways to approach this - what civilization had similar cultural themes to FFH ones, or what civilizations do the FFH ones remind you of. I feel like you're going for the second one (which is fine, my intention was to make the comment that I couldn't really parse any civs as similar and then leave) but you're overstating it significantly. What matters is the cultural themes, because that is what we think of when we think of civilizations in such broad strokes. And culturally, the British Empire is so far removed in our minds both from what we think of as piracy, and what the Lanun represent and have as their own cultural theme.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
