Discussion of ideas for more games

[shallow_thought]

In the early nineties, a project started in the heart of the cold war finally came to maturity. Some said that the core components came from a crashed alien ship; some said that they had travelled back in time. Still others said that they had been fused by mysterious chance out of the tortured earth at the site of the Trinity bomb blast. Whatever the truth, the holographically recursive autonomic war nexus was on the verge of full wakefulness, it's purpose to drive back the enemy by whatever means it's fiendish intelligence could devise.

The problem was that the cold war was over. The enemy were now friends. In the absence of another aim, what would the nexus do? It could not be turned off, destroyed or stopped. But perhaps it could diverted. It was terrifying and ruthless, but not actually malicious. The developers put their faith in the best that human culture could provide. Being from a particular cultural background, they naturally believed that this was science fiction and computer games, preferably combined.

Strangely, the diversion was a success. By happy chance, the software industry forged a true masterpiece that fascinated the nexus -  Master of Orion. The world was saved, for the moment. The developers were sure that more, equally brilliant, games would be produced over the years to come.

Sadly, that was not the case. To prevent potential disaster, a few hardy souls sought out a niche, a community, where MOO could be kept alive, new challenges designed, new players recruited for the nexus to train to keep it busy. Still the effort continues, for if it should falter - the world would be a changed place.


So, more MOO then, now that Imp 42 is over? I thought I'd open a thread to discuss some ideas and drop a few in to get the ball rolling. I had a quick scan through the more recent Imperia and OSGs to try to avoid re-inventing the wheel, but I fully expect the vets will have seen this all before.

Personally, I'm probably more up for an OSG than another Imperium straight away. I also think that ideas have to be a bit more special than anything I'm likely to come up with to justify an Imp. Either way, I note that it's difficult to get a single game accessible to recent jumpers to Impossible while challenging the more experienced, but nothing ventured...

Alone, and without a leader
---------------------------
Vanilla, aimed at any of the "newbies" who want to try an OSG without the safety net of more experience players; could be done an Imp with someone easier than the cats. Idea is to get comments and - if necessary - advice, but to have to actually do all the hard work (rather than just handing the whole mess off to Ianus  to fix ).
Klackons are an obvious strong choice given that Psilons and Humans have been played recently. Meklar are an option for more of a challenge; Sakkra or Alkari could work if people really want one or the other.

No key to the toy cupboard
--------------------------
Ship specials other than the Battle Scanner Reserve Fuel tanks and Bases are banned.
Could work with any race (probably one from the same set as above). I've become addicted to Repulsor Beams and Warp Dissipators, and the way they let you beat the AI with far smaller fleets. So much so, that I'm worried I can't cope without them.



The ideas below are loosely inspired by OSG-29: take a race, and nerf its speciality. The risk is that it becomes flavourless, or a drudge because good, clever play is banned. I've tried to think of one thing per race, even if it's not very good - perhaps other people can think of better. Because of OSG-29 I've not considered the Humans, and I couldn't think of a thematic way to nerf Klackons.

Single-minded Psilons
---------------------
Can only research one tech field at a time; in an OSG, allow each player to switch a previous player's choice if they want, leaving one click in it, once in a turn set.
Bit dull, we've played the brains recently.

Environmentally friendly cyborgs
--------------------------------
Have to restrict the number of factories until the a degree of Reduced Industrial Waste tech is reached. Tuneable - suggest limited to 3x pop util RIW80 is researched, 4x until RIW 60, 5 until RIW 40 etc. Waste Elimination removes all restrictions.
A bit meh, also a pain to (self) police.

Environmentally inept lizards
-----------------------------
Easy version: can never use the slider to explicitly grow pop (can only set it at most one above waste / t-form / etc.).
Hard version: can never use the eco slider (must always be set at most one click above waste) - no terraforming, no soil, no atmo (beyond a trickle).

Probably tedious to self-police. Easy version doesn't really add much constraint. Hard version sounds... difficult.

Flightless birds
----------------
(Hey, the Alkari could come from a long line of Dodos.)
No tactical speed above one allowed on ships.
Repeats a constraint already used in (comparatively) recent OSG-27, albeit that was with the rocks.

Polite rocks
------------
Can only colonise a planet once at least one other race has the relevant tech.
There's some technical rule twiddling required to cope with an absence of Controlled Radiated (probably allow once someone has researched the next level) - and with what counts as "proof" given that some colonies can appear Radiated because of events.
Might actually be an interesting challenge, but the rocks have been played recently and personally I need to go and practice with them before juggling them in public.

Territorial bears
-----------------
Can only invade a world that you once colonised.
This could be ... tricky. Keeping up with tech as Bulrathi without going on a rampage? Also, might not actually be fun.

Honourable Darloks
------------------------
Can only actively spy on a race you are at war with; cannot deliberately trigger a war without a Causus Belli.
Some technical twiddling required around edge cases / what counts as a Causus Belli - for example, they've invaded a planet of yours counts as being "at war" so long as you are actively working to get it back (or taking other direct military action).
I quite like this one, but have a nasty feeling its been done before. Also, potentially dull if no-one declares war on you (but you are the Darloks, so...).

Cocky cats
-------------
Not allowed to put battle computers on ships; who needs them when you've got reflexes this good?
Extended to say you can only research them if they're the only choice at that tier, and may not trade for them (although why would you want to?).
Bit flavourless, and people have probably had enough of the kitties by now.

Anyway, thought I'd see what people felt about even more MOO.

[Ianus]

I like some of those ideas although I also worry about the game becoming a slog.
There was a game long ago (before my time) where the player was required to always pick the lowest level tech available to research, i.e. you can't move to the next rung of the tech ladder before you have cleared out all techs available on the previous rung. Would this be enough to nerf the brains? It would certainly slow them down with their increased tech presence chance. Maybe that would be fun?
I like your Silicoid idea but I don't know how you would enforce it prior to meeting all races and deploying spies. Maybe ban all settlement of hostile worlds before meeting everyone?

While that would slow down the Sakkra they can still max pop really fast. Maybe forbid settling non-hostile worlds to nerf their growth? We could also edit a map to make more worlds hostile but I'm generally opposed to overwriting the map generator as it does a fine job on its own.

I do like the No Ship Specials idea as that would encourage versatility beyond powerful toys to fight battles.

That's all I can think of for now. I do think that it's a great idea to organize another event to try and avoid the slump which we often run into following an Imperium.

[RefSteel]

So, more MOO then, now that Imp 42 is over?

This sounds like an excellent plan to me!

Personally, I'm probably more up for an OSG than another Imperium straight away.

As observed before though, even though my higly-limited gaming schedule can't handle it, it is possible to do both!

I also think that ideas have to be a bit more special than anything I'm likely to come up with to justify an Imp.

Used to be that we'd start a new Imperium within a week or two of the last one closing. Any player who wants to "sponsor" one, which just means coming up with the settings and rolling and/or editing a map that would be interesting, is very welcome. If you want to make map edits but don't know how, you can always ask me (or Thrawn, who isn't as rusty with the save editing tools as I am, and probably has more facility with them than I ever did) to write a script that'll do the job.

Either way, I note that it's difficult to get a single game accessible to recent jumpers to Impossible while challenging the more experienced, but nothing ventured...

I've found there are basically two ways to do this: One is to start with a game that will challenge newer players without being overwhelming, and add an optional variants/scoring opportunities for players who want an Extreme game. (See e.g. Imperium 37) The other is to just ~alternate games at different levels of challenge, so there are Gentle® Imperia where new-to-Impossible players will have a fighting chance and vets can show off clever play or try out crazy, intentionally-suboptimal strategies, alternating with Extreme Imperria that should challenge almost anyone, and give newer players a chance to face truly impossible odds, even though a lot of empires go down fighting. (The classic example of this is still Imperium 4, well before I even joined the site, and I think even before Sullla had started playing Orion. But the Extreme version of Imperium 35 is a good example of a game in which literally no one posted a win except in a shadow game! (Of course, our vets - like me - were pretty rusty at the time, and Thrawn wasn't around at the time.)

No key to the toy cupboard
--------------------------
Ship specials other than the Battle Scanner Reserve Fuel tanks and Bases are banned.
Could work with any race (probably one from the same set as above). I've become addicted to Repulsor Beams and Warp Dissipators, and the way they let you beat the AI with far smaller fleets. So much so, that I'm worried I can't cope without them.

This one sounds like a lot of fun! Note Autorepair and Stabilizers are also specials, and taking those off the table (particularly the Stabilizers) contributes to the difficulty as well. The Alkari might be a good option for this one, though that would make it a pretty extreme game for new players if we do it on Impossible.

Territorial bears
-----------------
Can only invade a world that you once colonised.
This could be ... tricky. Keeping up with tech as Bulrathi without going on a rampage? Also, might not actually be fun.

I'm pretty sure it would be a lot of fun, actually! Another extreme one though, if played on Impossible.

Honourable Darloks
------------------------
Can only actively spy on a race you are at war with; cannot deliberately trigger a war without a Causus Belli.
Some technical twiddling required around edge cases / what counts as a Causus Belli - for example, they've invaded a planet of yours counts as being "at war" so long as you are actively working to get it back (or taking other direct military action).
I quite like this one, but have a nasty feeling its been done before. Also, potentially dull if no-one declares war on you (but you are the Darloks, so...).

It's not been done before as far as I know! Since declaring war isn't an option in the game anyway, the rule could be something like this: Espionage and Sabotage spying, threatening to attack, firing on planets or ships in orbit at rival colonies, and deliberately sending transports to a world that you expect will be in a rival's hands by the time your 'sports arrive, are all considered acts of war. We may not commit acts of war against any rival that has committed none against us since we last signed any treaty with them.

Anyway, thought I'd see what people felt about even more MOO.

In case this wasn't clear, my thoughts (in spite of my schedule) are: Yes, please!

[shallow_thought]

Glad to hear that there is some interest in keeping things rolling! Just a few, quick clarifications in resoponse to comments.

I like your Silicoid idea but I don't know how you would enforce it prior to meeting all races and deploying spies. Maybe ban all settlement of hostile worlds before meeting everyone?

Yep, that was roughly my idea. You can only settle if at least one other person has the tech, proven by either seeing a colony on a world you've already scouted or by having a spy, or through being offered the trade in a technology exchange (I couldn't think of any other proofs). I thought that you would also be allowed to colonise radiated worlds if you can prove someone has researched a tech above Controlled Radiated - again, spies are the direct route, but other proofs (seeing a Gaia world, seeing a hostile world go minimal) could be accepted.

As said, I like this idea, but rocks have been done recently and I haven't actually yet crossed them off my "Hard" list - plenty of material to learn from though.

I do like the No Ship Specials idea as that would encourage versatility beyond powerful toys to fight battles.

This one sounds like a lot of fun!  Note Autorepair and Stabilizers are also specials, and taking those off the table (particularly the Stabilizers) contributes to the difficulty as well.  The Alkari might be a good option for this one, though that would make it a pretty extreme game for new players if we do it on Impossible.

I'd considered making an exception for one of these, as it's hard to do much bombing prior to Ion Engines without them unless you're really into early agression. This might make sense for an Imperium, where you _can_ use specials, but your score is adjusted accordingly in some way, rather than an outright ban.  

The Alkari, annoyingly, also remain on my "Hard" list - I just lost the first council vote in a game with them, in waht would have been a dominant position given a few more years to actually get my planets populated. Too many Dead and Tundra worlds, and a big world suffering the Radiation Accident just before. Ironically, the planet that triggered the vote was me colonising a Terran 105 in a corner that only I could reach. With hindsight, could have worked around the problem, but I'll have to tackle them again.

Honourable Darloks
------------------------
Can only actively spy on a race you are at war with; cannot deliberately trigger a war without a Causus Belli.
Some technical twiddling required around edge cases / what counts as a Causus Belli - for example, they've invaded a planet of yours counts as being "at war" so long as you are actively working to get it back (or taking other direct military action).
I quite like this one, but have a nasty feeling its been done before. Also, potentially dull if no-one declares war on you (but you are the Darloks, so...).

It's not been done before as far as I know!  Since declaring war isn't an option in the game anyway, the rule could be something like this:  Espionage and Sabotage spying, threatening to attack, firing on planets or ships in orbit at rival colonies, and deliberately sending transports to a world that you expect will be in a rival's hands by the time your 'sports arrive, are all considered acts of war.  We may not commit acts of war against any rival that has committed none against us since we last signed any treaty with them.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. This would probably be my preferred choice for a mixed-skill OSG: I had fun ticking "Darloks on Hard" off my list last week, but it could be a bit tricky on Impossible - and there could be a lot of diplo luck involved, which might make it a bit harsh for an Imperium.

[Psillycyber]

Here's a crazy idea for a challenge variant:

*Psilons, large, impossible.
*The player cannot put weapons on ships. (Computers, shields, engines, ecm, and specials are fine. And building missile bases for defense is still fine).

The player will have to, instead, rely on things like energy pulsars, ion stream projectors, black hole generators, etc. to deal damage. (By the way, ion stream projectors and black hole generators can definitely take missile bases out on their own, if sufficiently massed and protected for enough turns). Or, maybe combat transporters in the lategame.

Edit: Or, a slightly less extreme version: missiles and torpedoes are only weapons allowed on ships. Note that, with specials only, the Guardian will be impossible to defeat since specials do not work against the Guardian (bugged I guess?)

[Psillycyber]

Another crazy idea: THE BORG CUBE

*Meklar
*The player cannot DESIGN any ship smaller than huge. The player can use any of the existing starting designs, but any newly-designed ships (including new versions of colony ships) must have a huge hull.

MORE EXTREME version: the player cannot BUILD any ship smaller than huge. The player may only use the starting 2 scouts and colony ship. Other than that, any newly-built ships must be huge.

MOST EXTREME version: the player cannot USE any ship smaller than huge. Thus, the player must immediately scrap the starting 2 scouts and colony ship (Meklon gambit).

OPTIONAL ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENT FOR FLAVOR: all ships designed must have some sort of colony base as one of their specials.

[RefSteel]

More neat ideas - cool! My current plan is to open Imperium 43 at the end of next weekend (so sometime on the 24th of July, depending on your time zone) unless someone else sends me a save file for an Imperium they want to sponsor in the next day or two (in which case we'll start sooner).

Either way, we should definitely get another Succession Game started if there's interest. I may not have time to participate myself in the near future, but I'd be happy to kibitz and offer advice if desired. Best way to get started is probably for anyone interested in participating to say so here, and let us know if you have a preference for one of the suggested ideas in this thread ("Prefer vanilla/no variants" or "No preference; I'm happy with anything!" are obviously fine among other things; you don't have to pick a favorite).

[RFS-81]

I'd prefer a vanilla game, maybe with some scoring/optional handicaps for experienced players. But if the rest wants something else, I'd still give it a try or just sit it out, if it seems to hard. I wanted to reload my Imperium 42 save and finish the game anyway...

I've also had a variant idea that I'd like some feedback on, maybe for some later game. I haven't tried to play it yet. My original idea was to ban seed-and-trickle research spending, but trying to figure out some hard-and-fast rules for that, I ended up with something rather more restrictive.

Everyone in the galaxy knows that the Psilons have the best scientists. But only those with an interest in their internal affairs know the drawback: They don't have any tolerance for bureaucrats trying to micro-manage them. When you try to explain this, usually someone will say something like "Well, that's just sentient nature! Unless you're a Klackon, I guess." Without going into a history lesson, it's impossible to get across just to what lengths they'll go. The rebellion of Stalaz sure looked like a simple military coup from the outside, but do you really think a Psilon general just suddenly decides that he wants to run the show? I'll just say this much: After the rebellion was struck down, Emperor Kelvan and his council of advisers were debating a ban on all applied research towards mind control. Of course, they soon concluded that such a ban could only backfire horribly.

Race: Psilon (for flavour reasons mostly; you could use any other race for a bigger challenge)
Rules:

• The tech ratios can only be adjusted before starting research, and on the turn after a new tech has been discovered.
  
• Total research spending must not be decreased except in the following emergency situations:
  • An enemy fleet is at one of your planets, or you have Improved Space Scanner and see that a fleet is approaching one of your planets.
    
  • You lost a colony in the last inter-turn.
    
  • You are affected by the Plague, Supernova, or Meteorite event. (EDIT: Not sure how to handle Plague because of the following loophole: You could just use eco spending to regrow the population and keep this event going forever.)
    
  • While at war, you may send troops to enemy planets without replacing the lost research points.
    
  • If a colony rebels, you do not have to replace the lost research. While the rebellion is ongoing, the same rule as for war applies.
    

[RefSteel]

Not sure how to handle Plague because of the following loophole: You could just use eco spending to regrow the population and keep this event going forever.)

Using eco spending on a plague world effectively makes it a useless cipher, except as a fuel base and the source of a council vote or two. I guess you could use it as a shipyard and let it stagnate around the middle of its growth curve, where birth rate ~cancels out death rate from the plague, but that's still a lot of wasted factories if it was maxed.... Also note we can edit the save file to remove certain events from the game if desired.

[shallow_thought]

I do think that it's a great idea to organize another event to try and avoid the slump which we often run into following an Imperium.

More neat ideas - cool!  My current plan is to open Imperium 43 at the end of next weekend (so sometime on the 24th of July, depending on your time zone) unless someone else sends me a save file for an Imperium they want to sponsor in the next day or two (in which case we'll start sooner).

Either way, we should definitely get another Succession Game started if there's interest.  I may not have time to participate myself in the near future, but I'd be happy to kibitz and offer advice if desired.  Best way to get started is probably for anyone interested in participating to say so here, and let us know if you have a preference for one of the suggested ideas in this thread ("Prefer vanilla/no variants" or "No preference; I'm happy with anything!" are obviously fine among other things; you don't have to pick a favorite).

I'd prefer a vanilla game, maybe with some scoring/optional handicaps for experienced players. But if the rest wants something else, I'd still give it a try or just sit it out, if it seems to hard. I wanted to reload my Imperium 42 save and finish the game anyway...

Sorry, despite starting this thread I've not actually stated my preferences and availability, have I? Been trying (and ... not entirely succeeding  ) to blast through all the races I've never won with on Hard.

So, I look forward to RefSteel getting Imperium 43 under way.

As said, I'd also be keen to get an OSG going if we can get enough interest, and would prefer vanilla if that doesn't risk boring the veterans; race choice could depend on the mix of player skill levels (Klackon-Meklar-Alkari in that order of difficulty would be my suggestions). As a side note, I've not got much interest in playing on large (let alone huge) maps - life is too busy.

@RFS-81, Ianus: I'm not actually clear from your posts whether you'd be interested in an OSG or would prefer to concentrate on Imp 43 (might be an idea to wait and see how terrifying it is before deciding...). We know that RefSteel is probably only available for advice (and maybe commentary...) and Thrawn is busy tackling the truly extreme (as is right and proper) and with RL. Do we think we have enough interest to try and get a game going?