Are you, in fact, a pregnant lady who lives in the apartment next door to Superdeath's parents? - Commodore

Create an account  

 
Research costs

I can't help the feeling research happens way too quickly in the midgame and switching from uncommons to rares, then very rares happens faster than it should.
This might just be a feeling - afterall the costs are pretty high - but I'll attempt to do some calculations.
One thing is certain - it's not the result of excessive research availability. Aside from specialized wizards, a significant part of research tends to come from the power base.

So first, let's look at some goals. Since power distribution is done between skill, mana and power, but mana is used to fuel skill, I believe setting the goals in casting skill for each spell tier is the best.


Commons.
I believe these are the primary thing players should aim to use while their skill is in the 0-40 range.
Players start at 20 Skill so they have 400 SP and need to reach 1600 SP for 40 skill.
So it costs 1200 SP to build up the skill needed to consider seriously advancing into uncommons.
At this phase of the game, buildings generally don't yet produce a lot of RP, it's a safe assumption to consider 10/turn. Power income is likely around 35/turn (20 at start, 50 at the end of the phase from a node or two, maybe some wizard's guild or population). Treasure is likely around 1200 mana total.
So the overall income is turns*45+1200.
I believe it's realistic that we want this phase to last roughly 6-7 years, 80 turns.
So we have 80*45+1200=4800 power to use up.

Out of this, 1200 goes for skill.
In 80 turns, an average of 30 skill means 2400 cost for overland spells. That buys 3 full stacks of the expensive creatures, or 6 from the cheaper ones if nothing else is cast. Enough to ensure the spells will see a relevant amount of use.
Combat spending is a different question, as it varies a lot per game. I'm going to go by the assumption that if any major combat spending happens, it conquers enough cities or nodes from enemy players, or finds enough treasure to at least cover its own cost, in other words, I'll assume combat spells pay for themselves in this phase. (Battles are still not frequent and skill is low.)
That leaves 1200 total power for research for this phase. Having 10 common spells to research (5 in your realm and 5 arcane), each should cost 1200 RP on average. That about matches the current settings.

Uncommons.
These should generally be the thing to use while skill is in the 40-100 range. That costs 10000-1600=8400 SP. This puts the average skill for the phase at 70.
In this phase, having a power income of 125/turn on average is realistic - we start from 50 and will likely reach 200 by the end of the phase.

Players will likely also produce around 40 RP from buildings (8 universities, or a few Sage's Guilds), so overall income is 165/turn. Treasure is less abundant in this phase as easy targets are already cracked, but the hard ones yield more. An expectation of 3000 MP (two strong nodes or four medium ones) is reasonable. *(Note that treasure amounts assume you spend some of it in gold and don't convert it all to mana, or find things that cannot be converted.)

Assuming we want this phase to be long enough to summon at least 5 full stacks of an uncommon creature (if nothing else is cast), and they cost 130 on average, we need 5850 skill used. At 70/turn, this  is ~80 turns again.
In 80 turns, we produce 165*80+3000=16200 total resources.

Out of that, 5850 is used on overland spellcasting.
We also need 8400 SP, totalling 14250, leaving only 1950 for research. Assuming 12 uncommons to get, this yields a cost of 165 RP/spell.
This explains why research on uncommons goes so slowly in most games. In this phase, players don't own a large amount of highly productive cities or nodes, so power production is not very high while demand for it and casting skill is massive. However players are likely to only research half their uncommons before switching to get a few rares. Assuming they "only" want 6 of the uncommons, we get a cost of 325 which is still below current.
But the real problem I see is the massive discrepancy in skill and research costs. For giving up 4 casting skill, (4% of your assumed total skill at end of the phase) you can have the 400 RP to get another uncommon spell.

At this point I'm not sure how to proceed with the calculation.
We could assume we want a certain ratio of SP to RP, for example that each new spell costs as much as gaining 5% casting skill. In this case players will likely need to invest heavily into power and research buildings to be able to proceed to rares, and the uncommon phase gets longer. Or we could assume we want an RP cost that's affordable from the expected amount of resources in the expected amount of turns in which case research will be cheaper it becomes more profitable to skip uncommons and go straight for doing rares with a lot casting skill, hoping the stronger spells make up for it. The two lead to entirely different results but maybe the former approach is better? That weird feeling that research is too fast might come not from the excessive availability of it, but the relatively low cost compared to SP and MP spendings?

(PS : I haven't forgot Amplifying Towers but I believe it's more reasonable to assume they start becoming relevant in the "rares" phase at 100+ skill. Before then producing power is more profitable.)
Reply

In my games, there's always a hard point somewhere in midgame where I have enough mana to last me a while, casting skill doesn't offer enough return, so I crank research up to the max. This increases research... tenfold or something, and makes me breeze through the uncommon and rare stage, hardly even having time to really make use of those spells. It's why I've never used Wraiths, for example, even though I think they're good.

Not sure about the solution. Just adding another perspective to the problem, if it's one.
Reply

Quote: casting skill doesn't offer enough return, so I crank research up to the max.

That actually shows that research is undercosted relative to skill I think.
Reply

Or skill just isn't all that worth it. I only raise skill when I go to war, there isn't anything urgent to research, and I have plenty of mana.

That's not all that often. It's very much my lowest priority of the three. Up till then the other ways of increasing skill seem much more effective (heroes, Amp Towers).
Reply

Hehe.
I'm.opposite of kaiku. I max casting skill and only reduce it as other demands are required. One can never have enough casting skill. 

However, I almost never start with more than 16 combat casting skill either and usually as low as 12.

So I think my biggest concern is that for me each phase is a few years less than seravy has described. Commons are obsolete by 1405 (which by the way makes city units even worse). Uncommons are obsolete by 1409. Rares are obsolete by 1412.

Note, this is as the human player. The AI will use all 3 categories for a year or more longer, depending on difficulty, but even on expert, the AI usage of rares is obsolete by 1417.

The reason the human has to switch tiers earlier is to stay competitive with the vast quantities of units the AI has.

Even if you can get 3 stacks of the best common summons by 1407, that does no good because there are 4 AI who each have far more than that. So you need to switch to the next tier up to avoid excessive casualties while at war.

So 5 years of common, 4 of uncommon, 3 of rare. (And that is probably why rares don't feel like they last long enough. You could easily start researching very rares before you finish researching your third rare.)

Edit: thinking about it, the above numbers are for master.
On lunatic, its more like 4/3/2. Expert might actually be 6/4/3. Advanced would be 6/5/3.
Reply

This actually might be worth thinking about.
We've never set any goals to how fast the game should progress, and how mana/skil/research should relate to each other, we pretty much kept the original ratios and said "This seems ok."

I don't think that's the case and we definitely should set such goals.
This might be the very reason why neither normal units, nor uncommon/rare spells and creatures see enough use.
It's too easy to reach the next tier in spells. Once you have rare creatures, even the best normal units won't compare to your "doomstack". But by the time you summon a stack of 9 rare creatures, you can research the very rare so why bother? Of course we are still within the realm of "feels" when saying this so we need to look at numbers instead.

I believe we need to define a goal for each tier. How research should relate to skill, and how mana consumption and summoning capability should relate to both. We can't change the skill mechanic and also don't want to (this has been discussed before), so that one is set in stone, but we can vary the costs of the other two (spells and research) as well as income (through altering nodes and buildings) though obviously as few changes as possible is preferred.
Bold are the unknown variables we want to calculate.

Commons.
Skill goal : 40, by then the player should be done with their commons if using an even distribution of resources.
Research goal : Research most or all common spells.

Overland casting goal : Summon 40 creatures or equivalent.
Combat casting goal : Nothing in particular. At this stage of the game, combat is not frequent and yield of invested mana in conquered treasure or cities is high.

Skill goal cost (SP) : 40^2-20^2=1200
Average skill : 30
Combat skill cost (MP) : 0
Overland skill cost (MP) : 40*Creature cost=30*turns
Turns = (SP+MP+RP)/Income
Research cost (RP) : Assuming 8 common spells for the phase, Common Research Cost*8 (10 spells in a realm+5 arcane commons-2 trading-5 starting spell)

->
Turns=40/30*Creature Cost
Turns = (SP+MP+RP)/Income= (1200+40*Creature Cost+Common Research Cost*8)/Income
->

40/30*Creature Cost = (1200+40*Creature Cost+Common Research Cost*8)/Income

That's only one equation but 3 variables.
However we have one more.

We want to specify a desired goal of exchange rate between RP and the others.
As MP consumption directly depends on skill and it's not worth raising the skill unless all of it is used up, we can treat MP and SP as one spending goal : casting spells in general vs the other goal, researching them.
As we've set a goal for both, that means we consider these equivalent in value. In other words, one can give up on raising their skill and casting spells for this phase in exchange for finishing their research twice as fast. Or one can abandon all research to double the budget they have for skill gain and summoning (albeit due to skill's nonlinear behavior, it won't actually double the creatures, it also won't be the square root formula skill uses as the MP consumption part is linear. It will be something in between 1.41 and 2 times as much.)


So we say we want SP+MP=RP as out goal.

=>
1200+40*Creature cost = RP

40/30*Creature Cost = (2*RP)/Income

Two equations but three variables. However, Income would be hard to change, meaning we need to assume it's already set in stone.
Let's see a realistic income for the common phase would be..1 node, 3 libraries, 10 power from random sources = 36 + the starting power of 20 = 56. You also get treasure, let's assume another 40/turn from that (it's more but I'm also assuming you spend the gold part on your cities).
So an income of 96 on average, obviously it'll be less at first and more near the end of the common phase.

40/30*Creature Cost = (2*RP)/96

=>

RP = 48*40/30 *Creature Cost  = 64*Creature Cost
1200+40*Creature cost = RP

64*Creature Cost = 1200+40*Creature cost
24*Creature Cost = 1200

Creature Cost = 50

Well, that's actually not that far from reality, yay! So we don't need to overhaul common creature costs.

Based on this, the other variables :

RP = 48*40/30 *Creature Cost  = 64*Creature Cost =3200

Common Research Cost = RP/8 = 400

Turns=40/30*Creature Cost = 66.666

So what we see here is that the amount of turns for the common phase roughly match the expectations and I think we are fine with this (5 and a half year), if my guesstimate for average income is correct. Common creature costs are fair as well. But research is 4 times cheaper than it should be, assuming we take the goals seriously.

(Note that for simplicity, I used creature costs as the goal for overland casting. This assumes the cost ratio of creatures and other overland spells is fair and they offer equal value.)

Before I calculate the same formulas for other tiers, I'd like to hear what people think about the goals I used, marked purple.
Reply

(December 10th, 2017, 14:38)Nelphine Wrote: Hehe.
I'm.opposite of kaiku. I max casting skill and only reduce it as other demands are required.

That's about the same view as mine, though. Casting skill is luxury. The other two are required. The minute they're not required, excess points go into skill. You'll probably get it earlier and more than me, but I bet the thought process is the same.

I don't have much input regarding the solution, but I would be a bit wary about railroading the progression too much. Rushing high research is fun and should stay possible, just at a cost. But it seems it will be.

I also think lair rewards tend to be quite high and are mostly responsible for the giant spike in research capability (giving abundance of mana), as you take a lot of them in a short amount of time once you have a decent stack.
Reply

Casting skill is actually required. You can't cast your spells without it - knowing Shadow Demons isn't that useful with a skill of 20. Great Drake with a skill of 40 is even more useless. Flame Strike if you don't have 60 to use it?

But still you say skill is not "required" because you have so much excess points that you can raise it as much as necessary without caring. To me that sounds like research is too cheap. (and you can't spend mana without higher skill so that one is inherently unable to prevent you from having enough for skill - unless you are doing several battles at a long range penalty or convert MP for gold but those are special cases.)

...but what I'd really like to know is what you think about the fair price of skill vs research. How much casting skill/summoned creatures would you trade for knowing another common spell? How much for an uncommon? How much for a rare? And most importantly, how much skill do you think you need to be able to use a tier of spells effectively?
Reply

Two issues: 

1) more important at higher tiers without starting spells, but even at common, the differende between mon o realm and dual realm in terms of how many spells you'll need to research changes wildly.

I'd personslly use 5 books of primary realm and 4 books of secondary realm as the standard to determine how many spells you'll have.

2) if you're going to do this kind of calculation, I think you again need to compare research costs to building costs. If something that can be compared to something else is noticeably differently priced, it won't get used. The example I go back to is the cost of hydras (or any other very rare) compared to halberdiers, including all prerequisites of the hydra in the cost. When you can get hundreds of halberdiers it doesn't seem worthwhile to research hydras instead. It doesn't matter if research is undercostee currently, if I can use city troops and starting spells to come close to the same thing, and that let's me get dozens or hundreds more casting skill, I'm not going to bother with research.


I'm not sure you should set research equal to skill/summon. While I agree that it may work out that way in practice, I think you should set research equal to skill equal to mana.
Reply

Skill is important. But I don't think that, in early/mid game, putting all your points in it for a handful of SP gives enough return compared to what you get out of points in mana/research (and I don't have an excess of points, I meant excess mana from treasure, freeing up the few points I do have). So I'll get it from other ways until I don't need mana/research as badly anymore. So yes, I believe research is a much better investment than skill, especially when you still lack essential spells (for a good doomstack).

I wouldn't know how to answer those questions, as it entirely depends on the spells. For commons, the ones valuable to me I've already picked, so the rest isn't worth all that much. Not enough to start researching at game start, as the spells I've picked carry me for quite a while. If something like Uranus' Blessing appears, I sacrifice anything to get it as quickly as I can. But... I think... I don't like waiting more than two turns for average spells (like summons). Most buffs and such, one turn max, or they're not worth casting (as you get units faster than you can buff them), but I'm not happy until they're instant. Not sure if that answers the question.
Reply



Forum Jump: