[pb40 spoiler] Götterdämmerung: Destruction Is The Masses' Entertainment

[Coeurva]

Something to pass space:

Here's my goals for this game: Don't die. Failing that, don't quit.

Early strategy will involve a concentrated push for granaries this time, aiming to maximize food -> hammer conversion efficiency, rather than simply aiming to maximize the number of cities. Carthage managed triple #1 demos last game (pb37) around ~T70 iirc, but I squandered them with the least focused midgame ever played (picking a midgame strategy in due time will be very necessary), as well as failing to make use of both our uniques on a map almost designed for them to excel. More respect for the role of cooperation in the meta will also feature. Everything beyond that depends on what I can't know yet.

I also want to be more succinct; we'll see how that goes.

Field of players:

1	Charriu	Zalson	Tokugawa	China
2	RFS-81	haphazard1	Pacal	Mongolia
3	superdeath	masterjason	Boudica	Zulu
4	Magic Science	Mr. Cairo	Mao	Inca
5	shallow_thought	Hitru	Genghis Khan	Persia
6	Coeurva	OT4E	Shaka	Rome

[OT4E]

Hi there.

Checking in as dedlurker.

Honestly I dont think that you are appropriate greenie or need any help in winning this game, but whatever. It will be honour for me to accompany you.

So far I followed your example and brought carthage to death in pb38. The question is are we going to pick cartage again or try smth else?

About me:
1) Most likely I will propose to declare war to every neighbor. Just ignore it.
2) If you dont let me drag you into wars then I'll continue with trying to engage you into wonder races. If you can ignore this too then you still have nice chances to win this game.

[Coeurva]

I was hoping you'd end up here. Let's break a few Fabergé eggs. Swords on every NavII galley.

Pb38 spoiler zone except for OT4E:

For the record, if Elkad hadn't attacked you when he did, I think the attack on Joey would have paid off brilliantly. Likewise, if you hadn't attacked Old Harry/Fintourist when you did, their game plan would have worked brilliantly. One player in the field has called your area of the map "OT4E's Bloodzone". I'm tempted to spin that into the thread title.

Think you're overestimating me or underrating the field or both; I don't see how I'm even close to having won already, maybe if Commodore makes sure to delete every coastal tile from the map. If nothing else, I know some of the players/lurkers (RFS, haphazard, s_t) from the MoO succession game in March where I contributed a whole ten turns of building factories, and overlooked an invading stack (lol). They're more thoughtful than I was there.

Wouldn't mind another round of Carthage as such, in fact, but I think we have to wait for the start and snake pick order -- Zulu/Inca remain too good not to consider if we can pick early.

What we can already discuss is leader traits. PRO looks essential to what I want to try. Any of PHI, AGG, IMP, EXP, CHM, ORG could go with it (CHM/PRO gets a free Sacrificial Altar in every city for the first 70t or so, AGG/PRO Zulu is a classic, etc.) -- with the small field, we're sure to get one of those, so pick civ first anyway. This time, I want to pay more attention to midgame production from workshops and forges, which might mean an early-ish Metal Casting; maybe an argument for IND but "wonders aren't my strength". FIN won't be worth it. CRE is outclassed by CHM imo. SPI demands too much from me (though SPI/PRO landing Pyramids is juicy, with both Rep and Police State getting higher output from faster granaries).

Might consider PRO pairings more closely tomorrow.

[Commodore]

Here's your start. Don't trust the fog.
   

[WilliamLP]

Hi, with regards, please consider putting some of this info in PB38 spoiler tags.

[OT4E]

My experience speaks against PRO. Granary in every city is just not enough for snowballing. Even more it often happens that granaries dont pay off (you hit happy limit, work unimproved tiles, or just settle suboptimal) while in the middle game there is no problem to land a chop in every new city ehich will advance you to the same position with non-PRO.

Everytime I didnt pick EXP I regret about it. Bonus for workers is universal and can be turned into whatever you need. I think PRO can overrun EXP only if you are going to make 3-4 city rush.

People continue outplaying me with IMP. But I still believe that if you are not boxed with IMP-neighbors from the both sides it gives you nothing except huge chance of falling into deep economic hole.

Shaka(AGG/EXP) and Mehmed(EXP/ORG) are my favourite. I am also seeking chance to try SPI (Isabella(SPI/EXP)), I think it suits 'not dying' beeline better. If you dont say 'I am going for kill' then I'd recommend to take SPI for middle-late game impact.

I'd give another try to Pacal(EXP/FIN). I still like an idea to cottage non-river tiles deliberately and make watermills on rivered ones. Look at our starting screenshot, I see 5 watermills already.

Washington (EXP/CHM) has everything except that the maps in RB are often rich and contain a lot of easy accessible luxuries. However it looks like Commodore made start more challenging and he could have a solution for luxuries too making CHM proper choice.

[OT4E]

We have 6th (last) number in snakepick order so we get to pick both at once and no hope for zulu and inca unfortunately. I have nothing against carthage, but dont take it too serious. There are many options and I think one of AGRI or HUNT is must for such start.

[Coeurva]

Hi, with regards, please consider putting some of this info in PB38 spoiler tags.

...had switched off brain assuming that because OT4E wouldn't learn anything new from what I said, it wasn't a pb38 spoiler. I hope there was no harm done.

[Coeurva]

I don't think PRO is that weak -- if every city can get a chop mid-game, that means a post Maths chop is a 1t granary. But if this is a good indicator of how lush the map is going to be (not so much), then granaries lose efficiency and we'll need a wide net of mediocre cities, elevating AGG, ORG (courthouses), FIN, CHM and possibly the Great Lighthouse.

Think we absolutely need EXP with this start; apart from what you've said, work boats are awful and so is our food surplus without crabs, so we need to build one anyway. ORG for lighthouse.

Suggestion: Mehmed > Shaka > Isa > Wash > Pacal > either Mao or Peter. Isabella might yet move up if I feel like it. Hopefully 4th or 5th won't be able to pick Zulu so that we don't "have to" pick Shaka before them.

Re civilizations, think we need to tech Fishing before T10 and Agri before T11. Either is possible, but not both unless we start with one of them. Plains sheep isn't much of a food resource, we might as well farm sugar before that, so can afford to delay Hunting imo.

* Arabia: Particularly if SPI since OrgRel and basically a third trait (CHM) "for free" from half-cost temples + Madrasa discount (while not locking us into CHM from T0) are both fantastic, I don't care how little the shrine will do. Small field probably means nobody else is going to take Myst except for the inevitable Inca player, so we can delay Med/Poly for a while (whatever Inca doesn't take) and also disturb Incan strategy
* Carthage: cap is coastal so cothons might shine, and we're picking EXP anyway; Washington would love the NumCav (more whips; Shock or Formation promos en masse)
* Dutch: cap is coastal which I assume is the same for everyone, so East Indiamen threaten all players guaranteed; until then this is blank
* Persia: the Immortal is the best early unique unit, ahead of the war chariot, but Zulu one-ups us automatically if we pick this
* Rome: 7str swords + AGG or CHM, simple recipe
* (Inca, Zulu in that order if they're still there, which they won't be, right...)

Suggestion: Inca > Zulu > Arabia > Carthage > Rome > Netherlands > Persia

Thought about settling on sugar: 3/1 fh center + 0/3 fh pop1 vs SIP 2/2 fh center + 1/2 fh pop1, no difference when building an EXP worker, grows +1 faster early, lacks +3f tile later that would be improved by a unit that EXP speeds up. Also loses opportunity to farm the sugar, effectively loses opportunity to share a food resource. Doubt it's worthwhile.

Thoughts on EXP work boat first: 6t boat, 10t worker. T16 is when EXP worker first will have improved their wheat anyway. Don't. But should use 2f1h (+1h from EXP) rather than 3f0h tile to build boat after worker (not warrior) for 10f/20h accumulated when wheat improves (3/0 tile would be 15f/10h, which means that 2f1h is better; 1t delay on growth but much faster to second food resource). Unless scout gets eaten by T9 again, in which case must build warrior.

Scout 11, then 63 unless food appears after the first move?

[OT4E]

I will comment in several parts. I think you underestimate sheep. It is quicker to improve and gives extra commerce what can result in getting BW earlier. Also from my experience crab is much worse than sheep because it costs as half of a worker. I dont think that for non-EXP wb before settler is reasonable at all.

So imho delaying hunting is not an option and we need both AGRI and HUNT by T14.

Lets compare improving sheep and improving wheat first:
1) Sheep improved on T13, growth on T17, wheat on T19. After this moment we get the same output. Earliest growth to 3 is at T21.

2) Wheat improved on T15, growth on the same T17 and sheep on T20. Earliest growth to 3 is at the same T21.

So basically it gives the same outcome except lost worker turn and some extra commerce from sheep.

But I trust sandboxes better than to plain maths.