[PB67] Charriu promotes the arts

[Charriu]

Tarkeel provided me with an updated map including Superdeath position.


I have to say I don't like what I see. There is no real incentive for Tarkeel to expand east. Hopefully there are more luxuries to his north. Also Mjmd's quote "There are those who are not happy with how lucky you got." is probably hinted to mean Tarkeel doesn't like it. But Tarkeel seems to like his position better then Superdeath. Tarkeel isn't happy about everything namely no rivers and not enough luxuries. I'm trying to talk his area up to make him feel better about it and less envious about my territory.

I've also been thinking more about the border towards Mjmd. Especially this quote of his.

Mjmd: If I was isolated in a 3 Choke isolated continent early war would not be on my agenda. I would peacefully build and let me unlucky neighbors who dont have 3 chokes fight.
...
But as you know I prioritize safe borders quite a bit

Obviously Mjmd drives a hard bargain here and tries to mess with me, which I don't like. There is no reason for this kind of hostility with the first diplo interactions. But there is one point of truth in it.

I have a lot of land to settle.

Meaning I maybe should not go on a confrontational course towards my neighbors right now. Better to settle all this land in peace and come back to them much stronger later. Therefore I'm thinking about an alternative settling plan for the north:





I've warmed up more towards the original orange dot between dye and rice. As you can see I've put two other dots in there blue cross and red cross. But first for comparison the original pink dot. That city can get up to 13 pop with 2 specialist (likely engineers) which would produce 28 hammers with guilds. It's a great city.
Now Red cross isn't as good. It can grow to 19 pop with 2 specialists (likely engineers) which would produce 23 hammers. Not bad but if I construct Moai here it goes up to 30 hammers. That's 1 hammer more then pink would get with Moai. But settling Moai in pink with all its culture is basically a declaration of war. I remember how that felt back in PB40 when somebody dropped Stonehenge in front of my border city.
Lastly Blue cross is the weakest of them all. It gets up to 14 pop, no specialists, which would produce 16 hammers, 24 with Moai. Settling Moai here might cause culture tension with anybody going for the stone up north. Overall the stone is a curse and a blessing. Of course it helps the city hammer-wise (aboves numbers do not include it), but that stone is outside of my sphere of influence and Tarkeel and/or Mjmd might be more interested about that. This could be mitigated by settling Blue cross 1S.

Now you will rightly say. Those are two coastal cities on flat land. That's not a defense. To that extend I would build a fort on the original pink dot spot here a black circle. You can build forts on the forest which would guarantee +100% defense from terrain (hill+forest+fort). Those can't be bombed away and even gunpowder units do not ignore it. Station the main army here will more or less close of the land bridge towards me. Thanks to both blue and red cross. I will keep the culture majority over this fort and maybe even the plains tile 1SE of it. Enemies can still station the plains hill north of it threatening blue cross, but that's the same danger as with the original pink dot.
Of course there is still the danger of a naval landing behind my border fort, but that danger was already present with pink dot two. To that extend I also chose to place red cross where it is that any naval landings are either on the tile 1N or the rice, which both are flat or the fleet has to go around the rice peninsula, which gives me time.
I think this arrangement gives Mjmd less reason to be aggressive towards me. Lastly it may also proof Mjmds character. As some no he complained about border situations in the past and that other players don't see it his way. If this situation is still not acceptable for him then I don't know why anyone in the future would need to respect his problems with borders in the future.

I don't want to propose this already to Mjmd. For one I told him that I'm dotmapping later and I would like to explore this border region more and make sure I don't abandon any seafood on that rice peninsula.

[Charriu]

The song



Music: Josh Trimarco - Spyro the Dragon 'Ice Cavern (Orchestral Remix)'

Yes, I've met another player and they specifically requested this song. Took me a bit to find something I have to admit.

This piece stays very close to the original. Of course you have to keep the most distinct feature of the song: The bass line. But you will also notice some small but very nice additions in the background like the woodinstruments right at the start after the little 0:03 and shortly after that the lower strings. Overall it's through the instrumentation then through any additions that this piece shines. Of course the piano lines also have to stay, but giving some of them to the harps works great making it more floaty.

I know absolutely nothing about the artist as I discovered them myself with this piece.

T37:

---

So as you may know already I met another player. This time Bing, who's scout I met on the southern land bridge you see above. We didn't have any other interactions yet. Have to say Commodore that's a very creative land bridge you painted there crossing the poles.
I suspect that Bing might be to Tarkeel's NE and Superdeath NW.

Now you might have noticed that there are two more odd things in the screen. One is that Bing still hasn't found his second city. Tarkeel to took more time to settle his second a few turns ago. This might be to their benefit as I've noticed that maintenance on this map can be pretty heavy. I would suspect that some players overextend, crash their economy and don't get to the crucial techs to alleviate some of the maintenance effects.

As for the second odd thing that's the tech I'm researching. Yes, I've skipped both The Wheel and Pottery and went straight for Writing. My reasoning behind this is this. Writing unlocks my CRE-supported UB which also benefits from PHI. I also feel like I'm a bit behind in techs especially to get over the mentioned maintenance issues on this big map. I could of course go for Pottery, which I would have gotten 1 turn later then if I go for Writing first. Then I would have placed down some cottages. But the poor cottages may help in maintenance cost early on, but crucially they don't speed up my tech rate by that much compared to running a scientist. And I do want to run scientist to get those Great Scientist sooner then later. Also I will get a good chunk of KTB for the missed techs.
This of course has some disadvantages namely:
- I don't get to connect copper and horse soon, but this is a big map without barbarians, so I guess I can go for a bit of farmers gambit here.
- I don't get to connect my cities for trade routes immediately. But the two important first cities are already connected
- I don't get to build granaries sooner, but they would have potentially delayed me to libraries and scientists anyway. And my capitol has more then enough food without granaries.
- Grow cottages sooner then later. Already talked about those. Would rather runs scientist then cottages. I'm not so much afraid of growing them too slow as there is the newly propped up Emancipation, which would also work greatly with the specialist play I am attempting and would help in growing the cottages.

[civac2]

Did Emancipations tech requirement change?

[Charriu]

No

[Charriu]

One problem with discord as a diplo tool is that I constantly forget to post the diplo messages here:

Tarkeel: BTW, are you comfortable with me sharing our map theories with mjmd? not going to share the images, but talk about what it shows

Charriu: Let me hook him up about potential map sharing. If he agrees I could send him the last stitch, if you already shared maps with him and it is fine with you.

Tarkeel: I've been sharing mostly the same map info to the both of you
I was mainly thinking about Amafrica theory, but will hold off on that untill I've unmapped enough for myself ?

Charriu: And my thought was theorizing is easier if everyone has the same map

In the end Mjmd did not agree to share maps, but I allowed Tarkeel to share map theories without actual maps. Tarkeel also shared a map with Superdeath position which I will post a bit later in this post. Next we talked about the border region between us.

Charriu: I think when West-Amafrica is explored we can discuss our border region. Or should we wait for iron? I think we can find a solution that works for both of us. I'm especially curious where there is food.

Tarkeel: this seems to be a very food poor map. As you see, most of eastern europe is unirrigable plains. oh, there is a tiny irrigation path through Karelia but other than that, no fresh water at all

Charriu: I wouldn't say that. It's more that the food is unevenly distributed. Like for example in your area there is a bigger concentration of food

Tarkeel: I dare you to dotmap it though

Charriu: Well it will be a lot of coastal cities, but since you are setup for Great Lighthouse and/or Colossus very well you should have no problem with research

Tarkeel: that's more or less a necessity here. Have you counted my river tiles? ?

Charriu: Yes have seen that. You will have to focus on water commerce. I would play that start.

Tarkeel: oh, it's playable, and I think SD has it worse than me

Charriu: I would think there are more lakes underneath the fog in his area which would provide irrigation. You probably expected that but those two wonders are all yours

Tarkeel: Ginger might contest it

Charriu: Yes he's the problem for you especially as he mentioned seeing only water

Well at least we know which wonders he is aiming at.

Charriu: I'm also sending a warrior towards Superdeath to meet him. I will try to stay to the edge of your discovered lands, so that we both get new information from that area. Like this for example:



Tarkeel: A little gift

That gold must have been there from the very start and Superdeath is still complaining about the map. Ungrateful map-crybabies.

Lastly I send Tarkeel this screenshot about Bing's position:





Next up my communication with Mjmd.

Mjmd: Every time I look at this picture I'm honestly confused why you would want plains tiles lol. Let me know if I'm sounding unreasonable, but I'll have one city between my capital and you and that hill is the only valid spot with the geography. Settle somewhere farther back and you can have pretty much any timeline NAP you want

Charriu: Oh I hear your security concerns and I do understand them. I'm more or less in the same situation like you with that two hills being the best defensive position in your direction. It's not about the plains rather the hill underneath a city.
I'm very much interested in stable borders and working with you rather then against.
To that extent I'm working on a solution that may work for both of us. But I need some more map knowledge for it and therefore I'm sending a warrior to the land bridge for exploration.
Basically I want to do the following things with
- make sure there aren't any seafood that require a city 1E of the rice.
- see that border region for myself.
- clear out a path for any future trade routes with you
- move the warrior past you to meet other players

I do hope that's not a problem for you.

Mjmd: there isn't a seafood east of the rice
I was hoping that was an island early on

Charriu: Great that would have been terrible for both of us.
I also noticed the lack of islands so far

Mjmd: I was going to place a city 3E of the rice
but I don't care about the grassland over t here
that one won't be settled soon, its just a grassland cow for food

Charriu: Like I said I'm sending a warrior to explore. I think in 10 turns I can safely make any agreements about that region if that time table is fine with you

Mjmd: that is fine. I want to point out you will be able to see into my city again and that since you have 3 chokes your security concerns are minimal. I of course am ok with our choke because it gives me a safe backlines, EXCEPT in the case you settle up on me

Charriu: I did take that into consideration.

That's a somewhat friendlier tone then last time.

[RefSteel]

If everyone except me hates the map, does that count as a concession?  :neenerneener:

Well, if you're having fun and they're all too upset about the map and perceived chances of victory to enjoy the game, then I'm pretty sure that means you win, concession or not!

[Charriu]

Wuhu. Win by having fun.

[Charriu]

Mjmd and I came to an agreement about the border.

Mjmd: I don't know if you don't believe where my capital is, but here is my west in all its plains glory. I'll note there are less grasslands here than in your tiny bit of  NE. I also have more plains north.


As you can see if I put the lake city anywhere else it misses a lake tile
Well I could settle it 1W but that seems worse lol

Charriu: Thanks. That's basically what I wanted to check with my warrior. Equalizing my knowledge about the area compared to yours. I still will run it past you northwards to meet other players.
I will do a proper screenshot later explaining my plan. A picture says more then thousand words.

Mjmd: Ginger sent me a screenshot with 0 relationship to his capital and I got annoyed and I figured you might be as well

Charriu: I wouldn't say I was annoyed, but I knowing helps me better understand your point of view

...



Charriu: And here is how I would settle my cities near the border. As you can see I also included your dotmaps.
I think this dotmap will solve the main issue of the border. I do realize that your border city is much closer to your capitol. To me though it's important that the two hills stay in my second ring. Therefore a city 1SE of the stone is a no-no for me. But you haven't planned one there anyway
There will be some culture tension around the rice, but I don't see how we could avoid that. It's mostly water tiles though.

Mjmd: That looks good to me. As stated I did not care about the grassland e of the rice and ya it hadn't even occurred to me to settle se of the stone as no food lol

Charriu: Hey it at least has 1 lake tile ?

Mjmd: Ya the other city will be using all of them for its measly food supply

Charriu: Well I doubt that city will be so measly in food. After the quick lighthouse thanks to ORG it will be up to +6 food with 4 pop and since you are FIN too it will have a good commerce output too. I did realize how good that city is for you. ?

Mjmd: It cant even work all its non hill plains tiles....... but yes will be ok

...

Mjmd: Also, as long as you don't settle the hills I'm willing to do an NAP with you. T75?

Charriu: NAP until T75 and nobody settles the two hills is a good start. But how about extending it towards T100 already?

Mjmd: Sounds good to me

So the end result is he gets his border city, I have given in and settle two instead of one border city. But we also have a NAP until T100 and a potential friendly neighbor. Considering that I'm running a farmers gambit for quiet some time I think this is a great outcome for me. I've already talked about my cities and the border situation with them at length in a previous post.

Now there are a few more thing noteworthy. First of all he didn't notice or mention anything about my western city that will take the stone in second ring. Not sure how this will come back to us. Also noteworthy is that Mjmd plans to settle coastal cities on the Mediterranean Sea, which might be interesting to know for Tarkeel.
Lastly about that city of Mjmds. He really seems to think the city is bad. He probably thinks about working the 3 lake tiles and the cow and add the 3 mined hills. That would bring this city up to 7 pop with 17 hammers output. Add Moai to it; increase the pop to 12 and work all water tiles and you are at 25 hammers and thanks to FIN 24 commerce.
But of course you can work all the plain tiles. All plain tiles except one can be farmed already. Make 1 hill a windmill and you can work 19 pop here producing 32 hammers (including Moai) and 26 commerce. The only issue for this city is happiness.

[Miguelito]

Unrivered pains farms are really really bad tiles to work but yes Moai is an option, Fin coast is good, it's a decent city.
The border cities that you choose are not so bad as at least he can't step on a hill to attack. Still not sure if it was right to cede the hill defense. Yes we don't want to fight an ancient war, but with Darius Mjmd surely wants neither. And why can't both hill cities face each other anyways? But if he actually stays friendly it might be worth it. Orange door then? Or on dyes, now that is doesn't block another dot?

[Charriu]

Yes it might be true that Mjmd also doesn't seek war because of Darius. My main reasoning is that I still have enough land to settle and I don't seek conflict with a neighbor. Conflict will come soon enough on it's own. Don't have to burn bridges with every neighbor and face a dogpile sooner then later. I also know from the past two games with Mjmd that I am able to establish a stable peaceful border with him.

For me it's orange dot. Yes, dye is free to settle now, but I still don't see the appeal of it. It does bring in the cow sooner then later, but long term the cow is needed by the city N of the cows. Dye would also be another (third) city closer to the border. Don't want to be in a situation, where Mjmd captures my border fortress and is able to fork 3 cities at once. I also hate loosing the dye as a good commerce tile (2/0/5) is bascially a town without investing any turns to grow it.