Learning Capria FFH SG

[Brian Shanahan]

I think I will just lurk your game and try to absorb concepts and information. And maybe ask a stupid question now and again, if you don't mind of course.

Stupid questions always welcome.

I'm looking at the save now. Will post plan in c.20 minutes.

[Brian Shanahan]

Had a look at the save.

First of all the moving of the sheep to corn knocks Edu by 1 turn, but keeps the two turn EC. So that's what I'll do.

As regards science Education with the revised beakers after the EC (2 turns at 18 beakers and the rest at 23) is due in 17 turns (well 16.1 actually but we'll need that last few to push) so there'll be no new tech choice for me this set.

Builds

Torrolerial goes EC>Worker>Settler>Warriors I think. We need the third city and we need more workers. We have enough warriors to mind ourselves and set up the third city too so no need to push warriors before the settler.
It will work the scientist as soon as it's able and keep on him until there are more useful things for the last citizen to do, like grow a cottage.

Vallus finishes the scout, starts the proposed worker and then builds an EC.
That'll allow some decent growth and also exploits the fact of the Academy in that city. I'd also work a scientist in there but that can be decided later.

The third city should IMO go SW of where the warriors are. It's not the best food site, but will have wines and 2 farms when borders pop giving it enough excess to run all cottages elsewhere and some grass mines. The original site is too close to the Ljosfar for comfort really. ATM it loses 4 tiles of it's BFC to culture (and one more to a mountain) which'll only get worse as time goes on. And the site is only marginally better, if even.

Looking at the diplo, Auric has Open Borders available but it's redded out as we're his "worst enemy".

Tear apart at your leisure as I'll play this tomorrow evening.

What's the final say on naming scheme kjn? It's your game so your call.

[kjn]

Thanks for the invitation, but I do not think my FFH skills are up to this level yet. Reading through your discussion I stumble over a lot of things that I am not familiar with or am still learning, so I think I would only drag the team down. Also, my availability is going to be patchy for the next month or so.

Don't underestimate yourself. Anyone who can manage 7 cities in FFH by turn 130 - even with EXP - is quite good.

I think I will just lurk your game and try to absorb concepts and information. And maybe ask a stupid question now and again, if you don't mind of course.

Feel free to. One of my flaws is a tendency to skip over or elide one or more intermediate steps when I reason about or try to explain something, and having someone to ask "what" is only a good thing then.

[kjn]

First of all the moving of the sheep to corn knocks Edu by 1 turn, but keeps the two turn EC. So that's what I'll do.

Right now we're at a stage of the game where we develop quite a bit, so the estimates on tech can be quite fluid. A single bbpt meant 1 turn on Education now, but in two turns we will add six! (2 from EC, 3 from sage, and 1 from growth in Vallus.)

And we need 10 (overflow) + 16 + 14 hammers with GK bonus to get the EC in two turns, so Torrolerial can continue growing on next turn, and the one after that go max food (apart from the one sage). I think my estimation of Education in turn 80 (maybe 79) will hold true, but then we will have to use the sage the entire time. He can be fired on turn 92, once the GS is in.

As regards science Education with the revised beakers after the EC (2 turns at 18 beakers and the rest at 23) is due in 17 turns (well 16.1 actually but we'll need that last few to push) so there'll be no new tech choice for me this set.

Yes, if you manage to get Education on turn 79! It'll be touch and go, and depend on the overflow hammers we got from Mysticism, and maybe even working the sheep over the corn this turn. We also get a 1.2 multiplier on Education research (due to having the AC prerequisite), rounded down.

We've managed to match every tech estimate I've made in this game (or beat them, but that was thanks to Hart popping Calendar). Trust me on this one - we'll have Education by turn 80 if nothing unforeseen happens!

Torrolerial goes EC>Worker>Settler>Warriors I think. We need the third city and we need more workers. We have enough warriors to mind ourselves and set up the third city too so no need to push warriors before the settler.
It will work the scientist as soon as it's able and keep on him until there are more useful things for the last citizen to do, like grow a cottage.

Torrolerial is size 7 right now. I think it should grow to 8 building a warrior (or a Pagan Temple, but that's not too useful right now) after the EC (brings us to turn 69), and then go 3*worker until Education is in, so we have four workers that can cottage.

Then Torrolerial builds a settler. Otherwise our poor workers will be overtasked with roading to Cyan and putting up cottages around Vallus, Torrolerial, and Cyan. If we can get one worker out of Vallus by, say, turn 82, then we can limit ourselves to two workers from Torrolerial and start the settler four turns earlier.

Especially since I imagine we will go Crafting - Mining after Education, which means chopping, mines, and hopefully lots of new settlers.

Vallus finishes the scout, starts the proposed worker and then builds an EC.
That'll allow some decent growth and also exploits the fact of the Academy in that city. I'd also work a scientist in there but that can be decided later.

No. No worker in Vallus until size 5. Vallus is size 2 right now, and will be 3 or maybe 4 when the scout finishes. But we want it to be size 5 ASAP, so it can speed up Education, and convert as soon as possible to all cottages (but with access to the sheep and maybe a single farm for quick growth as needed).

At size 4, Vallus will put 12 foodhammers into a worker (and 8 commerce), taking 7 turns. In the same period, Torrolerial can build 2. If you can get Vallus to size 5 by turn 82 or so and build a worker there that's finished by then, then by all means go for it, but at this stage pop in Vallus is more important than pop in Torrolerial, since we're commerce constrained, and Vallus has commerce potential now.

Looking at the diplo, Auric has Open Borders available but it's redded out as we're his "worst enemy".

Nice catch! He might be building the Pact of Nilhorn at all of 2 hammers per turn!

I noted that only Jonas had another city out in the save. I imagine there will be things happening there in your turnset, however.

Tear apart at your leisure as I'll play this tomorrow evening.

Izzat a challange? I'll try to flesh out the barebones micro-plan I had outlined in this post and in post #86.

What's the final say on naming scheme kjn? It's your game so your call.

I'll pitch that one to Hart, since we have two decent proposals. I might be the organiser, but we're three people playing.

[kjn]

Izzat a challange? I'll try to flesh out the barebones micro-plan I had outlined in this post and in post #86.

Behold! :hat:

All to my micro-management skillz!

If my spreadsheet can be trusted, on turn 79 we will have 11 warriors (10 now present and 1 new), 2 scouts (1 now present and 1 new), 3 workers, Torrolerial at size 8 with 78 hammers in a settler (due in 7 more turns), Vallus at size 5 with 48 hammers in a worker (due in 3 more turns), and with 416 beakers in Education (due in 1 turn)!!!!!*

If someone can find a way to eke out the last two bloody beakers I'd be quite impressed.

Wait...

I had an error in my spreadsheet! We get Education on turn 79! (Finding the error in the uploaded spreadsheet is left as an exercise for the reader, and should be readily apparent.)

I'll pitch that one to Hart, since we have two decent proposals. I might be the organiser, but we're three people playing.

How about we do authors for workers, and universities for the cities?

*

[Hart]

Behold! :hat:

All to my micro-management skillz!

Finally I get to see someone else's micro spreadsheets!

I had an error in my spreadsheet! We get Education on turn 79! (Finding the error in the uploaded spreadsheet is left as an exercise for the reader, and should be readily apparent.)

I'll keep looking.
Edit #2: Ahhhh, I see now.

Torrolerial is size 7 right now. I think it should grow to 8 building a warrior (or a Pagan Temple, but that's not too useful right now) after the EC (brings us to turn 69), and then go 3*worker until Education is in, so we have four workers that can cottage.

Then Torrolerial builds a settler. Otherwise our poor workers will be overtasked with roading to Cyan and putting up cottages around Vallus, Torrolerial, and Cyan. If we can get one worker out of Vallus by, say, turn 82, then we can limit ourselves to two workers from Torrolerial and start the settler four turns earlier.

This is a good plan. Although, a PT means we can run a prophet any time we want, and also get an easy 1 Happiness if we ever hook up reagents. But, then again, our bonus to it's construction will never actually go away.

All the stuff about Vallus needing to grow is quite correct.

Especially since I imagine we will go Crafting - Mining after Education, which means chopping, mines, and hopefully lots of new settlers.

Also agreed. Would we be considering going for a GProphet to grab RoK (assuming none of the AI grab it) once Mining is in?

Nice catch! He might be building the Pact of Nilhorn at all of 2 hammers per turn!

More likely he's trying to build the White Hand. Which would be bad, for us, if he does. Very bad. But that's not going to happen with 2 hammers/turn...

I'll pitch that one to Hart, since we have two decent proposals. I might be the organiser, but we're three people playing.

I do not care either way about naming units/cities. I... I just leave them as default, always. Sometimes I add numbers, but only when things get really complicated.

The third city should IMO go SW of where the warriors are. It's not the best food site, but will have wines and 2 farms when borders pop giving it enough excess to run all cottages elsewhere and some grass mines. The original site is too close to the Ljosfar for comfort really. ATM it loses 4 tiles of it's BFC to culture (and one more to a mountain) which'll only get worse as time goes on. And the site is only marginally better, if even.

Also agree with this.

EDIT: Also, when on earth did I pop Calender? Man, I need to make sure I've had coffee before playing...

[kjn]

Finally I get to see someone else's micro spreadsheets!
I'll keep looking.
Edit #2: Ahhhh, I see now.

I did have to cheat and roll over to turn 66 twice (once with sheep and once with corn) to work out the proper amount of overflow beakers. And it's distinctly cludgy in places (lots of things, like pop growth, overflow, and switches to foodhammers, has to be handled manually). And there is no mention of worker actions yet, but overall I'm quite happy with it, since it's my first real effort at one.

A hint for those following along: the error is in the row "Effective beakers".

This is a good plan. Although, a PT means we can run a prophet any time we want, and also get an easy 1 Happiness if we ever hook up reagents. But, then again, our bonus to it's construction will never actually go away.

It's incense, not reagents (reagents gives health with a herbalist). Getting a prophet as the second GP with a single priest will take a lot of time, too. Generating the first GP is often quick and easy - it's the second one that is hard.

Also agreed. Would we be considering going for a GProphet to grab RoK (assuming none of the AI grab it) once Mining is in?

I think we should go RoK after Mining anyway, even if we don't get the shrine, and maybe aim for Arete/Mines of Gal-Dur, once we have a secondary production centre up. Which brings us to city specialisation.

More likely he's trying to build the White Hand. Which would be bad, for us, if he does. Very bad. But that's not going to happen with 2 hammers/turn...

Can he have reached priesthood yet, however? I have no idea which techs and bonuses the AI gets on Emperor.

EDIT: Also, when on earth did I pop Calender? Man, I need to make sure I've had coffee before playing...

That's because it was me!

[kjn]

I spoiled myself a little when I had to roll the turn over to turn 66 to calculate the overflow from Mysticism, but we have the following from consider apart from city&tech micro:

Tactics, experience, animals, and culture

We have an interesting tactical situation around Vallus, with several bears and a Ljos scout. We might get a chance to pick off a wounded bear with our scout, but we have to preserve it as well (either by covering it with warriors (not optimal) or being able to move it back into our culture (better)).

Captured bears are awesome, adding +1 happy, +3 culture to any city. Normally you need at least hunters with Combat 1+Subdue Animal to capture bears, but a scout with the same promotions can manage to take a wounded bear.

Animals won't enter cultured tiles, but animals that are caught in expanding culture will get "stuck" and won't move. Those are monuments we don't have to build!

Worker micro and city specialisation

Torrolerial: I see this as a production site. It can help Vallus grow three cottages, but it should be geared towards building.

Vallus: Pure commerce site. Keep a farm for quick growth, the cotton (we need the happy), and the sheep (for now, we might cottage over it later). The two hills to the south gets mines for a little production, but they are mainly to be used by Magenta.

Cyan: Mostly commerce. There is too little food to support strong production, though it has the potential for it otherwise.

Magenta: Secondary production site, and primary naval base. 4 hills and a horse gives decent production, and it has food to support it. Workshops or farms on flatland. Can grow two cottages for Vallus.

Golden: Awkward site. With 14 F from city centre, corn, and fish (after Sanitation, Fishing, and a lighthouse), it only has one quality tile (the gold), and can borrow the horse for some additional production. I think it will do best running specialists, but it isn't a good long-term GP farm.

Red: Crap. Skip until we've expropriated Amelanchier's land.

White: Secondary naval base (northeast). Can grow a cottage for Vallus, but mostly production.

Green: Ugh. Only good point is being able to help grow five cottages for Vallus, and it secures our western border. But I'd rather avoid settling this city.

Brian, most of the city settling and worker turns will be done by me and Hart, but I think you will have to consider how to get the needed cottages out ASAP, and still be able to support the founding of Cyan, when you position the workers for when we get Education.

[Brian Shanahan]

I'll pull with the changed plans for the cities. I'm not too sure about leaving the settler but it's not because Cyan is such a splendid spot (unless you like off-road biking it isn't) but pushing there will put Amelanchier and Ossie into a small sack like two Kilkenny cats, and we all know what they do. Yes they'll both be angry at us, but they'll probably be more angry at each other and well we can profit from that.

I'll look at the micro later on, not much for working up spreadsheets myself (too tedious) more of a (silly) ideas man really. But when someone else has done one it is no bother to check it out.

[kjn]

Well, you can exchange Worker 3 with the second settler on turn 73 (Vallus goes EC-warrior-worker-settler), and follow up with worker 4 afterwards, without impacting the Education ETA. Settler comes turn 83.

But then we will only have two workers on turn 79, three from turn 82, and the fourth on turn 87. Vallus will need 10 worker turns for farms so it can build its worker in 7 turns from turn 75. We need to get at least five, preferably seven or eight, cottages around Vallus and Torrolerial ASAP from turn 79, that's at least 20-28 worker turns. Cyan will need five worker turns for roading, and then cottages, chopping for a monument or a winery on the wines (if we can get culture into Cyan with a bear or some other way).

A turn 83 settler might work, but it would either mean delaying its road connection and improved tiles, or delaying the cottage development around Vallus.

I checked the relations on turn 65, and they're strange. Os-Gabella dislikes everyone, as usual, but Amelanchier likes Os-Gabella more than us (he's even pleased, when I asked, and annoyed with us). Os-Gabella also has sizable backlines to expand into, while Amelanchier will be quite cramped. Yeah, we're in pacifism while Os-Gabella is in Nationhood (Amelanchier's favourite civic), but everything else should go in our favour - we don't use death mana, we don't have cramped border.

Getting Cartography, OB, and a road to Evermore would probably help, but that will still take quite some time. In the meanwhile, we probably have to make sure to have a decent power rating so at least we don't look like an inviting target.