Dave Fires Up The Epstein Drive [Japan]

[Cornflakes]

I'll be curious to see after the game what was a manual edit and what was generated naturally.

I made a copy of the raw map before starting to edit. I can post both the raw and final maps after the game is finished if you are interested.

[oledavy]

I'll be curious to see after the game what was a manual edit and what was generated naturally.

I made a copy of the raw map before starting to edit. I can post both the raw and final maps after the game is finished if you are interested.

I would love to see that actually! Something to look forward for the end of the game. 

Turn 56



CFCJesterfool founded Pizarro. This also shows me his pantheon - Goddess of the Harvest. Interesting pickup, I look forward to seeing how he utilizes it. 

Also, something important about Hong Kong: 



This means I can declare war on CFCJesterfool and get the Defensive Tactics Inspiration. 

More importantly, I have two 30 str. galleys in the vicinity of the 10 str. city of Pizarro. Even with a slinger guarding it, I'm about 90% sure I can take down the city. The major pro would be slowing down the expansion of one of my neighbors, burning his 4th city. The downside would be making him an enemy for likely the rest of the game. While it wouldn't put him out of the running in the manner Archduke did to Singaboy in PBEM2, it would guarantee his emnity for a long time if nothing else. 

Still, Woden is very distant, and Jpper is for the moment at least, sidetracked in Germany. This might be a good time to go for a snipe. 

It will require some mulling over. For now, I'm moving my western galley closer, and my eastern galley off so that hopefully he moves his slinger away and turns this into a slam-dunk for me.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Hey, Dave - 

I just finished reading through every thread of PBEM2, and I wanted to say that your excellent reporting and gameplay there has convinced me to hop aboard your train here (although I have to say after reading Alhambram's in-depth "where am I going wrong? How can I turn things around?" soul-searching midway through his thread I was rooting for him all the way. What an amazing game that was)! 

I'm new here and not sure how the rules work, nor am I any good at Civ, but thought you ought to know you have another fan here. Good luck!

[Mardoc]

I'm new here and not sure how the rules work,

Welcome!

Basically you have two options:

1)  Dedicated Lurker.  Here you can be as much of a teammate as OleDavy is willing to share - point out mistakes, suggest options, research game mechanics, or whatever.  This category goes anywhere from the occasional comment or question to people who play turns for the primary player when he's on vacation, but ultimately it's OleDavy's call.  Just about everyone likes having ded lurkers around, if for no other reason than someone to talk with.

In trade, you commit to avoiding any spoiler information while the game is going on.  No reading of other players' threads, no reading of the general lurker thread, and especially no reading the map thread.

2)  General Lurker.  You can read anything, and cheer for anyone, but you have to refrain from giving anything helpful that might possibly be based on knowledge from other players.  In practice we draw the line very conservatively - no comments that *might* be based on even unconscious knowledge, can't even ask 'hey, what would you do if Alhambram was invading Woden?'.  Basically you avoid not only spoiler information but anything that could be argued to be spoilerish.

In both cases, the main thing is to remember that the game is for the players and lurkers are fortunate that the players choose to report.  Keep to that ethos and most specific rules will be a natural extension.

-----------

You can generally transition between the categories once.  You can always abandon dedlurking for the wider perspective, so long as you stop making comments that might be useful to a specific player.  Sometimes, especially early in the game, players will accept a general lurker becoming a dedlurker so long as they promise not to use any of their spoiler knowledge.  This is easier early (like now in this game) because the only spoiler knowledge you're likely to have is map information that will eventually become known anyway, and it's hard to accidentally use map info.  Generally if you have spoiler knowledge and want to ded lurk you ought to post in the technical thread and ask for objections, but usually no one will object.

[oledavy]

Hey, Dave - 

I just finished reading through every thread of PBEM2, and I wanted to say that your excellent reporting and gameplay there has convinced me to hop aboard your train here (although I have to say after reading Alhambram's in-depth "where am I going wrong? How can I turn things around?" soul-searching midway through his thread I was rooting for him all the way. What an amazing game that was)! 

I'm new here and not sure how the rules work, nor am I any good at Civ, but thought you ought to know you have another fan here. Good luck!

Chevalier, welcome to the forums! 

Always flattered to find out people are enjoying reading along. I hope this thread is as entertaining to you as PBEM2 was!

@Mardoc, thank you for your excellent summation of lurker conduct. 

Turns 57-58

Alright, the last couple of turns had a bunch of minor setbacks for me. Nothing earth-shattering, but annoying nonetheless. First off: 



Singaboy took Valletta, bringing him to five cities to everyone else's three. That's really concerning, but since he's on the other side of the world, there is little I can do. It's entirely possible Singaboy is just going to snowball from this position and win. It will be up to the Archduke, Woden, and Jpper007 to stop him.  

By the way, the Vikings are beginning to really lag in expansion, he may have some trouble transitioning to the mid-game at this rate. 

So, I laid down a bunch of campuses, and made my first depressing discovery. Since the average number of campuses each player possesses in this game is just .667, I only got the discount for Callisto's campus. The other two cost 107 hammers each instead of the discounted 63. This means I could have locked in the cost of that first campus a few turns ago to save 6 hammers, but I didn't because I thought the discount didn't update in the middle of the turn. Indeed, when I went to select campuses for Ganymede and Ceres, they both appeared to have a 63 cog cost. They both didn't update until they were already placed.   

I still would have done the same thing, and this does answer the question I had earlier this game about when costs update, but man, paying 277 cogs for campuses when I was expecting to pay 189 is a little depressing. I should have paid closer attention when I was building Holy Sites. 

However, I am going to mitigate this somewhat with overflow usage: 



Here is the government I took on t58. 

Maritime Industries will allow me to build a galley in Ceres for 3 turns, just in time to fend off Brazil's arriving galley from the west if necessary, and I can then chop the forest west of the city into about 70 hammers for the campus. Callisto is building the 63 hammer campus, so it will finish in about 10 turns, and Ganymede has great production and will finish it's one in about 6. 

I took Land Surveyors to buy the mercury tile northeast of Callisto, giving me a resource to mine for the wheel Eureka.

Here is the other issue though: 



I have three builders wandering around at the moment - and had all their moves planned. A critical step, was that I was going to clear the marsh on the rice northwest of Ganymede, and then farm it to get irrigation.....

Except I need irrigation to clear the marsh.....

And I don't have another farmable resource in my borders.....

This will require some thought to get around. Considering that I am lagging on science, I really want to get every Eureka I can. I can at least defer hooking up my two plantation happy resources a little bit longer if I can to because I'm getting pearls from La Venta. 



I'll get Jerusalem in four more turns. La Venta was the priority though because Jerusalem doesn't have a luxury. It nicely buffed my faith production, getting me ever closer to the ~420 faith I'll need to buy 3 libraries. 

In the south, my galleys are moving to attack Pizarro. I've all but decided the setback it constitutes, the culture I get, and the low-risk it represents to me are worth the enemy is generates. I will likely be at odds with Spain this game anyway, as we have a lot of land in our contested zone. Leaving myself open to a 2v1 from them and the Vikings doesn't trouble me much, because the Vikings seem very much oriented eastward and are going to feel strong pressure to focus on expansion for much of the foreseeable future.

[Cornflakes]

I was under the impression that marsh rice could be farmed without first clearing the marsh (similar to jungle banana getting a plantation without first removing the jungle). Or did you want to harvest the marsh first for the food independent of being able to build the farm?

[suboptimal]

I'll get Jerusalem in four more turns. La Venta was the priority though because Jerusalem doesn't have a luxury. It nicely buffed my faith production, getting me ever closer to the ~420 faith I'll need to buy 3 libraries.

I believe that faith costs for buildings and units are 2x cog costs, which would put the libraries at 180 faith each post-patch.  Is the user interface showing 140 as the faith cost of a library?

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I'm new here and not sure how the rules work,

1)  Dedicated Lurker.  Here you can be as much of a teammate as OleDavy is willing to share - point out mistakes, suggest options, research game mechanics, or whatever.  This category goes anywhere from the occasional comment or question to people who play turns for the primary player when he's on vacation, but ultimately it's OleDavy's call.  Just about everyone likes having ded lurkers around, if for no other reason than someone to talk with.

In trade, you commit to avoiding any spoiler information while the game is going on.  No reading of other players' threads, no reading of the general lurker thread, and especially no reading the map thread.

2)  General Lurker.  You can read anything, and cheer for anyone, but you have to refrain from giving anything helpful that might possibly be based on knowledge from other players.  In practice we draw the line very conservatively - no comments that *might* be based on even unconscious knowledge, can't even ask 'hey, what would you do if Alhambram was invading Woden?'.  Basically you avoid not only spoiler information but anything that could be argued to be spoilerish.

Thank you for laying out the rules clearly! I hunted for a rules thread when I registered, but nothing jumped out so I resolved to play it conservatively. 

I picked up on the distinction between the dedlurkers and general lurkers reading through PBEM2, so I've actually stayed out of this game's other spoiler threads. Dave, your strategic and tactical plans are usually clear and concise, with well-defined goals and how you plan to get there. If you wouldn't mind me being a bit of a dedicated lurker here, I'd like to follow as best I can.

[oledavy]

I was under the impression that marsh rice could be farmed without first clearing the marsh (similar to jungle banana getting a plantation without first removing the jungle). Or did you want to harvest the marsh first for the food independent of being able to build the farm?

Turns out you can build a farm on a marsh! You are correct, I somehow got it in my head that I would have to remove it first. 


At any rate, this is a much-preferred outcome, I wasn't particularly set on removing the marsh, more seeing it as a necessity. 

I'll get Jerusalem in four more turns. La Venta was the priority though because Jerusalem doesn't have a luxury. It nicely buffed my faith production, getting me ever closer to the ~420 faith I'll need to buy 3 libraries. 

I believe that faith costs for buildings and units are 2x cog costs, which would put the libraries at 180 faith each post-patch.  Is the user interface showing 140 as the faith cost of a library?

You are correct, sufficient time had passed that I had forgotten the faith -> production conversion. Thanks for point that out!

Yeah though, that means I need about 540 faith to buy 3 libraries. We'll see how fast I can pull it together. 

At any rate, 

Turns 59-60



I kinda expected Woden to snipe that builder. He's posted in the diplomacy thread. I briefly debated saying something, bluffing offense, but I don't think there's anything I can extract from him for it. 

I can't say I really care, I just wish I had thought to set myself up for an easy builder snipe somewhere (I have been watching where Hong Kong moves its builder fwiw), but realistically, Woden lucked into this and finding one of my own would also take a little bit of luck. Most city-states have land tiles they'll want to improve first. La Venta is just a wasteland by comparison without a single workable hammer tile currently in its borders. 

At the same time, I don't really want to validate his move - so I think for now I just won't bother responding. Also note Archduke's galley making its way along the coast as well. 

I realized I dun goofed in the south: 



CFCJesterfool is Hong Kong's suzerain, meaning he has vision of three tiles around the city center regardless of whether borders or a unit would be able to see you normally, so he has seen me lying in wait these last two turns....

Derp. Oh well, he didn't call me out on it in the diplo thread, so either he missed it, didn't want to tip his hand, or believed it was there for another reason. 

The other big news of the turn is visible in the northeast: 



I'm kicking my effort to settle the eastern island into high gear, I have to beat the Vikings. I still have a pretty big head start due to my capital on this coast and the fact that I've already explored the island. 

No though, after the campus, I'll cram out a settler and send it this way escorted by my archer and the galley I'm chopping out on t61. 

Also note the Pantheon he took - logical choice for this map and for the Vikings especially, since it seems he's going to try and utilize Stave Church this game. 

t60, the big turn, arrived. 



Not going to paint myself as anything other than a cruel aggressor though. But, Spain has been farming that southern continent hard, and is likely going to end up being my foremost local rival. We'll see if this move ends up being worthwhile long-term, but at present, it strengthens my position relative to my neighbors in a pretty big way. 

And so the lightning attack on Pizarro began. 



He held the slinger there, but realistically the city is doomed unless he reinforces very quickly. I delivered 119 damage to the city-center this turn if I recall correctly, at the cost of my galleys taking 15 and 16 dmg respectively. It will fall in 1-2 more turns. 

I think this is a testament to the different character of early warfare on an ocean map. Getting at your opponents is a lot more difficult, and deliberate war planning is the exception rather than the rule. However, the highway of the seas enables quick surprise strikes at any part of an opponent's empire. Consequently, I believe wars in the early period of this game will mostly be surprise raids, with a swap to more conventional purposeful wars when frigates appear on the scene. 

This is also a prime example of why I'm building all my cities with a strong eye towards rendering them strong against naval attack, trying to always only leave them with only 1-2 adjacent coastal tiles. The vastness of the space means that it will be difficult to maintain naval superiority across your entire empire at all times, so cities need to be able to survive on their own long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

[oledavy]

I'm new here and not sure how the rules work,

1)  Dedicated Lurker.  Here you can be as much of a teammate as OleDavy is willing to share - point out mistakes, suggest options, research game mechanics, or whatever.  This category goes anywhere from the occasional comment or question to people who play turns for the primary player when he's on vacation, but ultimately it's OleDavy's call.  Just about everyone likes having ded lurkers around, if for no other reason than someone to talk with.

In trade, you commit to avoiding any spoiler information while the game is going on.  No reading of other players' threads, no reading of the general lurker thread, and especially no reading the map thread.

2)  General Lurker.  You can read anything, and cheer for anyone, but you have to refrain from giving anything helpful that might possibly be based on knowledge from other players.  In practice we draw the line very conservatively - no comments that *might* be based on even unconscious knowledge, can't even ask 'hey, what would you do if Alhambram was invading Woden?'.  Basically you avoid not only spoiler information but anything that could be argued to be spoilerish.

Thank you for laying out the rules clearly! I hunted for a rules thread when I registered, but nothing jumped out so I resolved to play it conservatively. 

I picked up on the distinction between the dedlurkers and general lurkers reading through PBEM2, so I've actually stayed out of this game's other spoiler threads. Dave, your strategic and tactical plans are usually clear and concise, with well-defined goals and how you plan to get there. If you wouldn't mind me being a bit of a dedicated lurker here, I'd like to follow as best I can.

I'd love to have you!

For starters, I'm currently weighing this scenario. 

If CFCJesterfool says anything in the diplo thread about my aggressive war dec, do I reply?