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Woden · December 12th, 2017, 12:33

I will try and get some overview shots on my turn. Agree with taking Kabul early is a good idea and should go to England since it is coastal. Maybe once I get Archery? Should be fairly easy with archers and I should have 4 or 5 around that time. Three Archers plus England's warrior should be enough to take it in a turn or 2. I am going to bring my current Slinger north between our Capitals and have him hook up with my next slinger to move across the north and take out the barb camp or see if there is another in the north. We will probably want me to take it out to get the Eurekas for Archery and Bronze Working, since I will head towards the bottom of the tree. Have England focus on the top. Might take 10-15 turns to get over there and hopefully the CS doesn't remove it beforehand. But that is why I am going to take the northern route just in case they do take it out and maybe there is another up there.

Nubia will want at least 1 coastal city since the quest for Kandy is to build a galley. Probably have my third city go to the coast just east of my capital, maybe on the tile between the rice and whales. Also agree that Nubia should settle around the desert to make use of my Nubian Pyramids but I will want to find a city with decent food first. Probably city #4 and #5 will go to the desert.

Also, I think I will continue my warrior along the eastern coast to find the edges of our continent. Probably the best way to find another continent (if I can get vision across a narrow straight or maybe an island that is on another continent). My Builder will be out on T14, then I will kick out a few 3 turn Slingers for barb duty. After that I don't know if Settler or Builder would be better. Settler to get a 2nd city faster or Builder to chop an Encampment once BW is done. Leaning towards Settler before Builder but we will have to see where we are then.

Chevalier Mal Fet · December 12th, 2017, 12:59

Looks like Singaboy's work schedule and mine line up just perfectly, then - I typically get home from work at around 3:45 - 4:00pm CST each day. No chance of me ever being able to play by 3:30.

Sorry about the lack of overview shots, I actually took one last turn but didn't post it - I'll throw it up here when I get home. My general impression of the terrain is that it is very thick. Lots of forest and jungle between Woden and I, lots of desert to my west, lakes positively everywhere it seems.

There may be a spot for my second city around the lake in the northwest, that'll be the priority for my scout after our third CS is contacted it.

The conquest/settling plan I think I am in broad agreement with. I'll leave the barb camp for Nubia to clear for the inspirations. One argument for settling Salamis is that it brings my escort warrior down near Kabul, so he can efficiently join in the conquest soon after. England can make good use of Kabul, while Kandy we still want to keep around for the relics. I do have one city-state strategy question:

Both Kandy and Kabul want a quarry from me, which I can easily build at the site of Salamis. However, the envoy from Kabul doesn't matter, since we're killing the city before I get a third there, and the faith from Kandy can be replaced by God-King. Is a faster pantheon worth a single wasted builder charge (since I'll ultimately harvest the stone)? I'd love to land the district-building pantheon, but I doubt that will happen. Still, might be worth a shot?

Woden, I think I favor an early settler over a second builder. With space to expand, I think we should fill it up as much as possible (without going full PBEM4 Japper).

Chevalier Mal Fet · December 12th, 2017, 19:13

Turn 12

Score update:

Okay, so a couple of things happened on the turn, nothing major, though. I'll leave Woden to do most of the reporting on his end. First, I move my scout and sure enough, it's another Militaristic city state, Valetta. banghead

We get our inspiration for PP, and I guess this will get my units out a little faster, but this was probably the least ideal draw of city states we could have asked for.

[Image: n8nSMIp.png]

Second, I finish Code of Laws, unlocking my early policies. I took a screenshot, but I'll skip it to keep space down on this report. I slotted in God-King (still wanna know what you guys think about building a quarry for an envoy in Kandy - could double my faith, for the cost of 1 builder charge. Might be worth it to grab a pantheon early, but there are lots of good ones) to start working towards the pantheon and discipline.

Speaking of discipline, the barbarian scout reappears outside Kabul. Still no exclamation mark, so he hasn't spotted any city yet. My warrior is hiking north to escort my settler - I don't have enough time to divert south, chase the scout, and get back in time to escort, so I'll ignore him for the time being. Finishing Code of Laws lets me swap back to the 2/2 tile, which drops growth down to 3 turns while the settler remains at 4.

Internationally, I'm fourth to Code of Laws - Sullla's Rome beat me to it, of course, as did Singaboy's China - they must have found a Cultural city state. Damned unlucky. Japper also finishes a tech earlier this turn, but it's so close to mine that he either met a Cultural city state relatively recently or he's also been working a 1 clef tile. Archduke and Mike seem to be fighting barbarians, their domination scores dropped a little, and BRick/Sullla opted to build a warrior first out of their capital, if I'm reading the scores right.

Finally, a couple of overview shots of the land so far. Here's what I've discovered, in Settler view:
[Image: PoUmGD5.png]

Note the coast beyond Valetta. That city will also probably be acquired down the road. There are a couple of spots for Nubia to found around the desert, but I'm not sure what the ideal placement there is yet. Plenty of time to consider it.

Woden's exploration, again in settler view:

[Image: V0ROhY4.png]

A large lake south of Kandy, but I'm not sure if it's the real coastline or not. Notice also that Woden has slotted in an early dotmap - all the production boosting districts around his capital, for me to send trade routes to, and an initial science setup around Horus. I'll let him explain it more in depth.

Last photo of the turn, an overview of English territory with no lenses: [Image: M9SDNWC.png]

Tile yields are on, but so are pins. I couldn't find an easy way to disable those.

Anyway, overall I think we're doing okay. We're middle of the pack in terms of science and culture, and we've found absolutely no help from our city states there. I'm a bit disappointed by that, but I think we have a good shot at pantheons due to Kandy, which isn't terrible. Also disappointing is that neither of us has found a natural wonder yet, which is delaying Woden's astrology. The time is ticking down on that, but we decided we weren't going to push fullbore for a religion anyway.

Next goals: Find a new continent for Foreign Trade. Woden's builder will be able to land Craftsmanship. Settle, probably Salamis, and prepare to absorb Kabul. Not sure what our timeline should be on Valetta, but again probably sooner rather than later. Intermediate steps, I want to get a galley or two out with Maritime Industries and start to explore the coast and probe for other continents, while we get our religion and core set up.

Woden

I will report later but am very happy about Valletta. This will work well with Goddess of the Harvest. They are one of the best Military CS. Maybe Carthage would have been better, IDK. We will want to keep them around. Their Suzerain bonus is the ability to buy City Center and Encampment buildings with faith and I believe it includes walls. This will be very helpful down the line. It probably would be better to have a cultural or commerce one but at least it is a good one.

Chevalier Mal Fet · December 12th, 2017, 19:36

Oh, duh, I forgot. That's a pretty solid bonus, especially if you're focusing faith.

Speaking of, do you have any plans for an early HS in your first or second city, or is that being pushed down the road?

Woden · December 13th, 2017, 00:19

Nubia-Turn 12

Move warrior southeast to defog a little more coast and slinger moved west to defog the last hidden tile between our capitals. Since CMF already did a wonderful job of showing overview shots of our lands, here is the settler view around my capital...
Click to resize (Javascript)

Also, I did an initial district plan for my first 2 cities. Amon will go production heavy to have a destination for trade routes and Horus will go for a campus. CMF, I did forget the Holy Site, may have to add it to Horus. Maybe where the Kabul warrior is standing for +2 faith. It will give up the river plains lumber mill, so I might have to think about it. Don't really want to give up a 1/5 tile but production will not be an issue with Horus. Maybe decide if I find a good 3rd city. We have a little time to decide.

Here are the rankings for reference...
Click to resize (Javascript)

Looks like China's capital is now size 3 along with Kongo plus Kongo now has CoL finished. Thinking either found a cultural city state or has a culture tile, like CMF. I am still 4 turns away form finishing it but should be the first to have a builder out since I was the first to have a 2nd unit out and am working two 2/2 tiles. I guess someone could be working a 1/3 and 2/2 tile but it doesn't matter much.

Since CMF has met Valletta (get to that in a minute), I am starting to think I should run God King while working on Craftsmanship. If someone went for Astrology first and builds a Holy Site with an adjacency of +2 then runs a project with a production at 10 Icon_Production

and runs God King, they could be at 25 Icon_Faith

in 6 turns. I will have the pantheon at the beginning of T21. That would mean if anybody starts accumulating Prophet points in the next 4 turns, I might not get the first pantheon. If I run God King, I can have the pantheon on T19. Might be worth it. What do you think?

The one reason to do this is Valletta. If I get Goddess of the Harvest, my first envoys will be to Valletta, instead of Kandy. Being able to buy City Center buildings and Encampment buildings with faith means I can build other things, like an army or other districts. New cities can instantly get a monument, grainery, and/or watermill plus I believe walls can be bought at a reduced price. New cities can immediately start on a district or builder. Their Suzerain bonus is probably as good if not better than Jesuit Education, since you don't need to build a district first in a new city to make use of it. I also do plan to build a lot of Encampments. I don't think anybody has really shown their usefulness in any of these PBEMs yet. IMO, they are better than Industrial Zones in new cities since they provide a decent production bonus plus extra housing and come much earlier. My ranged units will be maxed out on their ability to earn experience if built in an encampment with a barracks and armory. Finding the also fortifies our plans to go early aggression, as we should be able to build lots of units.

That being said, I still think taking Kabul early is probably the better option. I don't think the added production towards units will help that much, compared to another coastal city with double trade routes. Which reminds me, do we want to wait until they build a Harbor before we attack? I am pretty sure all coastal city states build Harbors.

CMF,
I think building a quarry for the envoy at Kandy is a good idea but it might be difficult to get it in time to help with your pantheon. I still think you should go for it as it will clear the quest and you will get another one when you advance an Era. We might be able to get you a builder in time if we pool our gold and you buy it at your new city when you found it. You have 4 turns left on the Settler plus ~7 turns of travel before you can found the city plus 1 turn before the Builder can move. That is 12 turns before you get the envoy, so it should shave off 8 turns from your pantheon, give it to you on roughly T28. Might be worth it. You might not get the second pantheon but should get 3rd or 4th and that might still be worth it. Your builder could quarry the stone, mine the copper, then move to your capital to pasture the horses?

I am thinking my Slinger might take the southern route and see if he can chase down the barb scout.

oledavy · December 13th, 2017, 00:36

Thanks for the overview shots! I am now done with the semester, so I will have some more time to process them after I get back into town later this week.

Quick thoughts: You two did not get a great pull on CS's.

However, there is strong potential to leverage Valletta in a creative way, and I'm all for that. Definitely worth considering in the turns to come.

In the interim, I expect you to build nothing but units for quite some time Chevalier jive

Chevalier Mal Fet

Turn 13

Save was a few hours delayed and reached me late last night, so we'll probably lose half a day or so. No biggie. Played my turn first thing this morning and I'll try to keep this report short 'coz I gotta dash off to work.

First, score update:

Astute readers will learn the major news of the turn purely by the score chart. Nevertheless, I'll mention it below in just a moment.

Scout starts to circle through the difficult terrain north of Lake Malta:

[Image: s9iYn9h.png]

Valetta will grow slowly, but its production is going to be absolutely insane. I'm assuming the land bridge continues all the way around the lake, otherwise the game would call it "coast" and not "lake." Boy will my face be red if that turns out not to be the case.

Domestically there are no major updates: Growth is in 2 turns, settler in 3. I could sync them up, but I prefer the extra yields over concealing my settler from my enemies.

Internationally, the major news of the turn is Emperor K's score spiking by 7, indicating the completion of his first district (damn, that was fast). A quick check of the great people screen confirms it:

[Image: L3mrmxA.png]

Great Prophet, Writer, Artist, and Musician points are starting to roll in. Emperor only has one tech, so he must have bee-lined Astrology and landed it fairly swiftly - I only finished horseback writing 2 or 3 turns ago! Lavras are half cost, but I still suspect he got the boost for Astrology from a natural wonder in order to have gotten this one up so quickly. His domination score suggests a slinger build, so Russia at least probably opened slinger (research Astrology) -> Lavra. With Woden and I still natural wonder-less, we're obviously not winning the race for an early religion, so not beelining that was probably a good move on our parts.

Domination scores fluctuate as the other players battle barbarians. I heard the "barbarians approaching!" noise as I passed the turn to Singaboy, as well. Our own scout remains skulking around in the south somewhere.

Elsewhere, Khmer finished their first civic and probably started generating faith. What are my odds of winning a race to a pantheon? Still pretty good, I think, if I can land the bonus from Kandy with a quarry. Barring interference from natural wonders, Rome and China were running God King two or three turns before me, so as long as I get the envoy in in ~10 turns I should be able to catch them (again, barring other sources of faith). Russia will generate 1-3 faith per turn, so he's certainly going to beat me (but probably not Woden), and Khmer, unless he's got something besides God-King, can't catch me. I'll go back through the records and figure out when Rome got its civic, to see how soon I need to drop my envoy to have a chance at beating him. This little minigame is about all I have to keep me occupied at the moment. Otherwise nothing of note happened.

Slow turns, but you can feel the boulder slowly starting to gather momentum.

Chevalier Mal Fet · December 14th, 2017, 08:30

A quick bit of math. All of this is just going by what's in the score. I don't think anyone has met a religious city state apart from us, since we lead in the religious win category. It's possible that some natural wonders are generating faith for people, but I can't plan based on that. So, my assumptions may be off and I may be surprised, but let's work this out.

Rome finished CoL on turn 7, China on turn 10. I finished on turn 12. Khmer finished 13.

So Rome has 6 faith. Pantheon is due in ~19 turns, or turn 32. China will arrive 3 turns later, on turn 35, followed by me on 37 and Khmer on 38.

Russia is ~2 faith per turn, starting now. Pantheon is 12 or 13 turns, so call it turn 25 - easy win for them. Woden is at 8 faith, with +2 a turn, so he should arrive in 9 turns - 21. If Russia has a particularly good lavra, it could be getting +3 faith, which makes it a much tighter race for first pantheon - 9 turns as well. Turn order would give it to Emperor K in that case.

So, if I don't get an envoy, I'm looking at most likely 6th pick, since Khmer will certainly build a holy site in the next 24 turns. The envoy won't push me past Woden or Emperor, but I could conceivably catch Rome and China.

China I will ignore, since they will probably take the wonder-building pantheon and aren't really competing with me. Besides, if I beat Rome, I beat them anyway.

Rome has a lead of 5 faith on me, and moves before me in turn order, so to beat them I need to get my envoy into Kandy at least 6 turns before they would arrive at their pantheon - so turn 26. That gives me 13 turns to finish the settler, settle Salamis, and quarry the stone. Settler is due Turn 16. I then have 10 turns to walk him down, let's say it takes 7 turns through the rough terrain - so turn 23. I can buy a builder on the same turn. Turn 24 he moves out, and either than turn or turn 25 he quarries and I get my envoy. If my math is right, I then earn 3 faith per turn to Rome's 1. I'll be at 13 faith, needing 12 to go, so 4 turns later on turn 29 or 30 I land a pantheon.

So it's doable, IF the Romans don't have any other sources of faith between now and then. That's a big if, but I suspect the Romans are more oriented at culture and expansion than religion, so Sullla won't be prioritizing faith generation - ie no holy sites. China probably WILL build a holy site, as will Khmer, but I don't know if it'll push them up in front of me. It all depends on when they get built.

I'm gonna go for it. I'd really love to get the City Patron Goddess and get +25% on my first districts for the rest of the game. Opportunity cost is extremely low, since it's mostly stuff I was gonna do anyway.

Chevalier Mal Fet · December 14th, 2017, 11:52

Woden, I'm reading through Sullla's PBEM1 (to re-familiarize myself with how he plays, and unashamedly to pick up tips), and he mentioned something that inspired me:

(February 24th, 2017, 10:29)Sullla Wrote: I picked up the boost for Astrology tech in the process, although that's something that I have no intention of researching anytime soon. I'll let my neighboring city state build the Holy District and then conquer it away from them later.

So this is just a thought. We're not focusing on an early religion, unless you think you can land Jesuit Education (with Russia already having a Lavra out, though, and no boost to Astrology I think our chances of being 4th in the race are pretty solid regardless of what we do). You have no HS in your dot maps of Amun and Horus, so if we don't feel like re-jiggering those, why not just poach Kandy's when we take the city? It means a later religion, since we need to wait until we suck all the relics dry, but it could save production elsewhere.

I haven't thought about it too in depth, so I've given basically no consideration to the tradeoffs yet, but I wanted to throw it out there to consider before I forgot about it.

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