[SPOILER] Dark Savant graduates from blatant n00b to plain n00b

[Dark Savant]

I suppose I can vent about Things That Annoy Me here.

Today's topic: People who don't want technological anachronisms in their fantasy gaming.  The main trouble with this, as I see it, is that "not having technological anachronisms in fiction" is itself an anachronism.  That's only been cared about for about 200 years in novels; in computer gaming, that's only been the case for about the past 20.  I can rattle off blatant anachronisms in dozens of fantasy games older than about that.  (It's especially easy to sneak in 19th century technology without people realizing it's that advanced -- that happens just about everywhere even now.)

This doesn't seem to affect Final Fantasy at least, which you might say is one of those franchises that has been around long enough to outright embrace it, except that hasn't stopped other fandoms at all.

It's not like most of these people even know that all of JRR Tolkien, GRR Martin, and Gary Gygax all pretty much say that you shouldn't have full plate armor (white armor, Gothic armor, etc.) in their worlds.  There are plenty of anachronisms in their worlds otherwise, and all three actually know it.

I can even go into Standard Fantasy Fiction Tropes that are historical anachronisms.  I can probably come up with dozens.  I'll try that, but I have to get work done here.  

This has been a Dark Savant Blog / postcount++ Post.

[Dark Savant]

Turn 10 - 3600 BC (Part 1)

[Dark Savant]

Turn 10 - 3600 BC (Part 2)

As it happens, no one was actually racing with me for turn-10 Buddhism, so I got it uncontested.

Anyone paying attention will also know that I'm definitely the founder.  So there's not really an information leak because I'm giving my civ a theme this turn.



No one is going to be able to sail to Byzantium anyway.  Most other rivals won't even have the little lake I have!

[Dark Savant]

Turn 10 - 3600 BC (Part 3)

Of course, things have just begun.  I'm going to have to dig myself out of my slow start, and I'm going to have to eventually deal with people who want to attack me for a holy city.  They'll probably at least have the decency to give me time to generate a Great Prophet first, which will take several dozen turns minimum.

So I went off plan and started an 8-turn worker on turn 9, not turn 10.  I will need Hunting by turn 18; otherwise, the worker will be idle for a turn.

Can I reach Hunting in 8 turns even with 4 turns spent with the minimum 11 flasks/turn?  The other 4 turns, I can manage 14 flasks/turn (and 7 foodhammers/turn, so I can make a 8-turn worker with exactly 60 foodhammers).  With the 5 flask overflow I have, that will reach Hunting in 8 turns with 2 flasks to spare. 

All right.  Now, that means I'll have to decide on turn 18 whether I'm researching Agriculture or Mining.  I was planning to use the holy city expansion to 3rd-ring on turn 21 to get in some border-expansion scouting, but I can't actually wait that long, so I'll have to cover all the potential city sites by then.

My warrior is going to proceed south one more turn, but after that I may want to backtrack.  I uncover this:



If this map was going to have silver all over like PB37, I probably would have found some before this, but it's still nice to have.

[Dark Savant]

Turn 10 - 3600 BC (Part 4 - C&D)

Four rivals got technologies: AdrienIer, B4ndit, Commodore, and Gavagai.

Adrien (who is Expansive) probably got Agriculture or Hunting with 11 flasks/turn working a 1h+ tile.  B4ndit and Gavagai both started with Agriculture and The Wheel, so they might actually have Pottery (which they could reach in 10 turns at 14 flasks/turn, for the same reasons that would have let anyone with Mysticism get Meditation in 10 turns) instead of Hunting.  Commodore probably just got Agriculture or Hunting.

6,000 soldiers showed up this turn.  That's probably three of those guys getting Hunting.

Also, people who haven't yet researched a tech:

• elkad, Mr. Cairo, naufragar started with a food worker tech and Mining, so they're probably off researching Bronze Working.
  
• Donovan Zoi and Rusten are likely both researching Polytheism.  Have fun racing, guys!  
  

Reverse C&D: as mentioned, anyone paying attention will know for certain I researched Meditation, and got Buddhism uncontested.  They'll also know why I grew to size 2 rather than building a worker first.

[Dark Savant]

 Hello, lurkers!

I'm set with dragon names for quite a while -- as in, enough that I'm not even going to head to A Song of Ice and Fire until city #5, and I'm a big fan of that.  If anyone has suggestions, I'd love to hear some.

Does anyone know if there's a named dragon anywhere in the Harry Potter-verse?  I can't think of one offhand, and Google doesn't have anything to suggest either.  There's a lot on types of dragons, but not named individuals, which is what I want.

[RefSteel]

First up: Congratulations! Still sorry you abandoned Yeats, but I quite understand the reason.

Secondly: Gorbash is a fun one. But more to your point: There is indeed at least one named dragon in the Harry Pottery universe. In fact, the dragon comes up in both the first book and the last! Of course, it's up to you if you want to name a city Norbert ... or Norberta!

And finally, going back to a previous post: Oooooh! A fantasy story discussion! Can I play? (If not, ignore the in-no-way-actually-spoilery contents of the spoiler tags below.)

On the one hand, I really like thinking through the alternate histories and economies that would exist in a fantasy world with a given set of "magical" phenomena and rules: How did trolls evolve? How do elves age? How does the ready availability of magical healing change the social dynamics of a low-tech society? I like it when all the pieces of my world can be made to fit together and make sense.

On the other hand, and partly for that very reason, I don't think there can ever be such a thing as an "anachronism" in a fantasy world: There's stuff that fits in the world, and stuff that doesn't, and if you make up a world where arbitrary teleportation is readily available and ... actually, no, bad example; if teleportation without fixed endpoints is readily available, go back and start on a new world because you've already destroyed the old one. But if you make up a world where dragons, giants, and evil wizards are the most significant threats to human life and/or royal power, and you pretend it has the same technology as real-life medieval Europe, only with magic and mythical creatures tacked on incidentally ... I mean, okay, if you're having fun with it, that's fine too!

But anyone who then gets upset when the medieval/renaissance or even early industrial technology you include in your game didn't exist in real-world Europe (in which your story isn't set) in the time period in which they for some reason think your story should be taking place, they should maybe spend less time obsessing over medieval timelines and more looking up the definitions of words like "fantasy."

[Dark Savant]

First up:  Congratulations!  Still sorry you abandoned Yeats, but I quite understand the reason.

I'm still hoping to use it as a unit naming scheme.  

Secondly:  Gorbash is a fun one.

Ooh, I hadn't heard of that one before.  I don't know my older short fantasy fiction nearly as well as I do older short science fiction.

But more to your point:  There is indeed at least one named dragon in the Harry Pottery universe.  In fact, the dragon comes up in both the first book and the last!  Of course, it's up to you if you want to name a city Norbert ... or Norberta!

Now that you mention it, I now remember.  Of course Hagrid would have a dragon around.   That's still a little more obscure than I was hoping for, though a later city would probably work in that case.  Thanks for the reminder!

On the one hand, I really like thinking through the alternate histories and economies that would exist in a fantasy world with a given set of "magical" phenomena and rules: How did trolls evolve? How do elves age? How does the ready availability of magical healing change the social dynamics of a low-tech society?  I like it when all the pieces of my world can be made to fit together and make sense.

Well, not that many authors even really try to build a coherent world.  For instance, Rowling's world is evocative, but it doesn't really hold together well.  Tolkien and Martin do that exceptionally well, on the other hand.

Even then, they have their flaws.  Tolkien's strange ideas about government get through to his books.  He's an anarcho-monarchist, and yes, that doesn't make much sense at all.  Martin has very solid thinking about government, but he's very notorious about failing on anything involving numbers and is prone to failing at science, both in ways Tolkien does not.

On the other hand, and partly for that very reason, I don't think there can ever be such a thing as an "anachronism" in a fantasy world:  There's stuff that fits in the world, and stuff that doesn't, and if you make up a world where arbitrary teleportation is readily available and ... actually, no, bad example; if teleportation without fixed endpoints is readily available, go back and start on a new world because you've already destroyed the old one.  But if you make up a world where dragons, giants, and evil wizards are the most significant threats to human life and/or royal power, and you pretend it has the same technology as real-life medieval Europe, only with magic and mythical creatures tacked on incidentally ... I mean, okay, if you're having fun with it, that's fine too!

People generally still build castles in Standard Fantasy Fiction.

Never mind that this often doesn't make much sense.  Castles stopped being built for practical purposes in the real world once cannons got good enough, in the mid-1400s in Europe.  If you have teleportation, or giants, or wizards casting earth-moving spells, or yes, dragons, and people can actually get them, there's not a whole lot of point in that case either.

Things like that is why a good fantasy world either keeps the magic at a low level (both Tolkien or Martin do this), keeping the big magic for a handful of spectacular things ... or don't try to be a medieval world at all, like Rowling or most official Dungeons & Dragons campaign settings.

But anyone who then gets upset when the medieval/renaissance or even early industrial technology you include in your game didn't exist in real-world Europe (in which your story isn't set) in the time period in which they for some reason think your story should be taking place, they should maybe spend less time obsessing over medieval timelines and more looking up the definitions of words like "fantasy."

Early industrial technology isn't even that big a deal; 19th century technology is downright common, and actually very hard to avoid.  Open The Hobbit to the first page.  A knob on the door to Bag End is mentioned.  Yes, it turns.  Those were invented after the American Civil War.  (Oh, and elsewhere in Middle-earth, the Númenóreans had cruise missiles, and Morgoth had armored personnel carriers attacking Gondolin.)

Pin-and-tumbler locks are common in fantasy gaming.  They're technically actually ancient, but they were expensive until someone worked out how to mass-produce them in the 19th century.

Salt is generally not a precious resource in a fantasy world.  It was relatively hard to find in real life until geology advanced enough to find places to get it in the late 19th century.  (Maybe you could ask Dreylin about that one.  )

Food problems were common, even in wealthy well-run societies not at war, all the way up to about 200 years ago.

I can go on and on if you want, and might anyway because I like talking about it.    One reason this often isn't a problem is because with the high power levels often being thrown around, advanced technology simply doesn't have the impact it otherwise might.  If you have druids blessing the fields, for instance, you simply won't get the famines that were historically both much more common and much more recent than people think.  Armored personnel carriers don't matter too much when you have multiple Balrogs.  Etc.

[Dark Savant]

Okay, so I need a plan to generate a Great Prophet.

Stonehenge is an outside possibility, but I simply don't have a good play for a fast Stonehenge.  I might be able to think about a lunge for it if no one builds it by about turn 40, but it's not worth going more than a little out of my way to accommodate that.

So that means I want to research Priesthood early, and build one or both of the Oracle or a Buddhist temple.  I did already find marble nearby to speed up the Oracle.

Worker techs I'll need: Hunting, Mining, Bronze Working, Agriculture, The Wheel, Pottery, Masonry.

If I try for the Oracle, I may not have time for Animal Husbandry, never mind Writing or Sailing or maybe even Archery -- I have to plan on relying on only axes and spears for my military for some time, and probably have to live with delaying hooking up the nearby ivory.  If I try for the Oracle, I'll probably have to take the "standard" Metal Casting with it.  That's fine; I want the Prophet GPP and even the culture too.

I'll want Bronze Working as soon as I can manage it, so I know where copper is.  If I have to abandon building the Oracle in favor of military, I need to know as soon as possible.

Also, if I land the Oracle, or even if I try and fail, I should push aggressive scouting.  I'll want to make contact everywhere for known tech bonuses (the Oracle more or less enables those with this mod), and to encourage passive Buddhism spread.

[Dark Savant]

Turn 11 - 3560 BC (Part 1)

I first double-check to make sure that Hunting is at 16/103 and the worker is at 16/60.  Whew, no surprises. 

I move the northern scout first:



Deer is nice, but hmm.  I'd have loved to place my second city on the river, but there's nowhere I can see along it that's actually compelling, especially if I'm very slow to get Animal Husbandry.

Okay, time to move the southern warrior.  Oh, wait.



I suppose the decision on whether to keep moving south has been made for me.  Okay, time to turn around.

I do have a name for the warrior now.



Yeah, as in "exit, pursued by a", from Shakespeare's The Winter's Tale.