[Spoilers] Lazteuq and RefSteel's PB51 Adventure

[Raskolnikov]

Question for anyone lurking: Are Harbors usually worth building? I almost never build them in singleplayer, but this pitboss has made me reconsider the value of trade routes.

I usually build them for the health if needed (after factories generally). The improved TRs are meaningless if you don't have intercontinental TRs. And even then... If you are expensive and the game lasts long enough you might have a ROI, but you might very well be better building research/wealth.

Final tip. Mouve over the TRs in one of your continental space race save in SP. You will see the multipliers applied to TRs. IIRC, it can go up to 350% or more. (intercontinetal, prolonged peace, etc... I can't remember them on top of my head but there are plenty)
This way you can decide whether the new bonus you will get is worth it. (Remember, the first 100% double your output, the second just give 50% more in absolute value, the third one 33% etc. diminushing returns and all)

[Lazteuq]

Thanks Raskolnikov.

I think we will be leaving the compass-optics path alone for a very long time.

Superdeath declined open borders. That means we can't explore anywhere but toward Plemo.

Plan for Chile Relleno: Whip a lighthouse so we can start using those nice freshwater lakes. Then make a workboat to explore Plemo. There definitely is continuous coast, no Optics needed.

Just realized there's no point in chopping out the galley faster, because then it would just be waiting for the settler! Workboat started exploring Fur Island.

[Lazteuq]

Up to T90.
Just realized the Foreign Advisor shows us who's been fighting!
None of the civs we know are at war with eachother right now, but there have been 3 wars in the past:
-Superdeath has declared on MJMD
-MJMD has declared on Superdeath
-MJMD has declared on Giraflorens

This is pretty interesting. I'm still confused about where MJMD is. Best guess is south of Superdeath, but if so, why would they declare on Giraflorens??

Stone is connected, and I started the mids for failgold in Fajita. I think RefSteel is correct that Tortilla would be a better location, but the workers were not in as good of positions to start chopping.
QUESTION: Is it considered illegal to work on a wonder in multiple cities for the failgold?

We get intel on Plemo next turn. Nothing very interesting on demographics/graphs except this:

I think Superdeath was building Hanging Gardens and then Plemo got it first. Working on a wonder with multipliers is the only way I can explain such a dramatic increase and decrease in production.
But wait... that doesn't make sense either, because Superdeath doesn't have stone or Industrious. Nevermind, I don't know what's going on after all.

The northern island is looking good- could hold 2 cities!

[RefSteel]

I think we will be leaving the compass-optics path alone for a very long time.

Yup, sounds right to me.

This is pretty interesting. I'm still confused about where MJMD is. Best guess is south of Superdeath, but if so, why would they declare on Giraflorens??

One or more of these might have been scouting wars (e.g. to move a scout or workboat through another player's territory before Writing or when OB was refused) - but I'm not sure which.

QUESTION: Is it considered illegal to work on a wonder in multiple cities for the failgold?

This is a legal tactic, though of course the game only lets you build it in one city each turn. One other note: Make sure you have something worthwhile sitting in the build queue "behind" the wonder, just in case someone finishes it and the die roll puts them ahead of us in turn order. That way, the production will go into the worthwhile something. If not, that turn's production will be lost completely. (If we're ahead in turn order when they finish it, that turn's production will be turned into failgold either way, not put into the next thing).

Of course, if we somehow complete 'mids someplace, that would be amazing - especially if the someplace isn't easily Praeted - and itt would still give us the failgold from any other city that had put any turns in. I just don't expect that to happen!

Working on a wonder with multipliers is the only way I can explain such a dramatic increase and decrease in production.
But wait... that doesn't make sense either, because Superdeath doesn't have stone or Industrious. Nevermind, I don't know what's going on after all.

The graphs don't take build-specific multipliers into account actually; they just reflect base hammers and universal multipliers like forges and Bureaucracy. It's likely superdeath just switched from mines to farms/cottages/scientists/whatever. (Or whipped some mines away? I haven't followed PBSpy closely and don't know if other numbers changed around then.)

The northern island is looking good- could hold 2 cities!

Yup, looks really promising in spite of the tundra!

[Lazteuq]

Up to T92:
Took a Fish for Fish trade with Plemo. I'm still unclear about exactly what this kind of trade means. Clearly it's some kind of non-aggression gesture, but I guess I need to 'lurk moar' to understand.

One or more of these might have been scouting wars (e.g. to move a scout or workboat through another player's territory before Writing or when OB was refused) - but I'm not sure which.

Right, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder if we should have done the same... but it seems too late now.

Mids:

This is a legal tactic, though of course the game only lets you build it in one city each turn. One other note: Make sure you have something worthwhile sitting in the build queue "behind" the wonder, just in case someone finishes it and the die roll puts them ahead of us in turn order. That way, the production will go into the worthwhile something. If not, that turn's production will be lost completely. (If we're ahead in turn order when they finish it, that turn's production will be turned into failgold either way, not put into the next thing).

Of course, if we somehow complete 'mids someplace, that would be amazing - especially if the someplace isn't easily Praeted - and itt would still give us the failgold from any other city that had put any turns in. I just don't expect that to happen!

Sounds good, and certainly Representation would be excellent, but I feel like we have minimal chance at getting mids, low enough to not bother trying. Instead, my idea is to chop all forests in Fajita toward mids, then switch to building mids with the forests around Tortilla. That would completely kill any of our remaining chances of getting mids, but it will potentially double our failgold yield to maybe over 500. (I can hope...)

The graphs don't take build-specific multipliers into account actually; they just reflect base hammers and universal multipliers like forges and Bureaucracy. It's likely superdeath just switched from mines to farms/cottages/scientists/whatever. (Or whipped some mines away? I haven't followed PBSpy closely and don't know if other numbers changed around then.)

I suppose that's certainly possible, thanks for the correction.

Score went down quite a bit because I whipped:
-3pop settler (6-3)in Carne Asada. I know this sounds weird, but I don't see a lot of need for military, Carne Asada was about to exceed the happy cap, and it is a very low-commerce city.
-2pop worker (6-4) in Quesadilla. Was about to exceed happy cap, and can continue working the cottages despite the whip.
-1pop Granary (3-2) in Ceviche. Only had fish and sheep as improved tiles to work anyway...

Overview:

[RefSteel]

Took a Fish for Fish trade with Plemo. I'm still unclear about exactly what this kind of trade means. Clearly it's some kind of non-aggression gesture, but I guess I need to 'lurk moar' to understand.

Actually, you've got it already. That really is about all there is to it. Fish for fish (or the like) is just a vague gesture of friendliness and non-aggression. It is not binding and is subject to changing circumstances - kind of a declaration of intent to be peaceful unless something changes. There are a couple of wrinkles: You can keep your friendship secret by rejecting the deal and then immediately re-offering it, in which case the other player should reject the trade deal, but it's understood that you both are secretly friendly toward each other and don't want to broadcast the fact to other players.

The other wrinkle is that offering e.g. copper for copper (any military resource offered for itself) is an equally-vague gesture toward military alliance. This type of deal, when accepted, is nearly always "rejected and offered back" in game, so as to keep the alliance secret. But it also is very unreliable because there's no (legal) way to indicate the timeframe or target of your joint military action except by inference from the context of the game.

Sounds good, and certainly Representation would be excellent, but I feel like we have minimal chance at getting mids, low enough to not bother trying. Instead, my idea is to chop all forests in Fajita toward mids, then switch to building mids with the forests around Tortilla. That would completely kill any of our remaining chances of getting mids, but it will potentially double our failgold yield to maybe over 500. (I can hope...)

Tortilla has horses we haven't pastured yet, an unimproved floodplain, and two hills that can be mined. I feel like spending worker turns chopping into failgold can't be right under those circumstances, nor working forests for failgold when it could be working cottages. I can always be wrong, but that's what my civ instincts tell me.

-3pop settler (6-3)in Carne Asada. I know this sounds weird, but I don't see a lot of need for military
-2pop worker (6-4) in Quesadilla. Was about to exceed happy cap, and can continue working the cottages despite the whip.
-1pop Granary (3-2) in Ceviche. Only had fish and sheep as improved tiles to work anyway...

With Enchilada about to produce a settler too, where are these next two cities intended to go? I don't think I have a good enough sense of the current game state to comment very intelligently about the details or strategy right now, though that might be because it's 3 AM. Generally speaking, completing a Granary while still as small as possible is good though, and Tortilla's situation suggests we either need more workers up there or should be using the ones we have differently. (Hard to tell for sure right now...) The Settler may be absolutely the right call too, though I know that when I find myself writing something like, "I know this sounds weird," I often take it as a cue to check and see if I'm missing something important!

Thanks for the overview shots as well. I assume they're not showing our final tile configuration? (For instance, Chile Relleno looks like it's working a 3/0/0 farm when it still has a 3/0/2 lake available....)

[Lazteuq]

T96:
Island city will be founded next turn.
I forgot to explain the other settler: It is intended for Site 3B because that area of the empire has more improvements than Carne Asada and Chile Relleno need, especially now that Chile Relleno can work 3/0/2 lakes.
I think site 7 for the next settler. Quesadilla is working on it at size 5, will be done in 8T, I don't really want to whip it. Just realized that Tortilla should also get a lighthouse because it has 3 freshwater lakes.

I assume they're not showing our final tile configuration? (For instance, Chile Relleno looks like it's working a 3/0/0 farm when it still has a 3/0/2 lake available....)

Ha, thanks for the benefit of the doubt, but that really was just plain incompetence. Now I'm trying to make a habit of looking through all city screens before logging out.

Tortilla has horses we haven't pastured yet, an unimproved floodplain, and two hills that can be mined. I feel like spending worker turns chopping into failgold can't be right under those circumstances, nor working forests for failgold when it could be working cottages. I can always be wrong, but that's what my civ instincts tell me.

Yeah, I was probably too thirsty for failgold.
Mids were completed this turn anyway though before I even switched over to Tortilla. We got 163 failgold.
Currency comes in next turn. That brings up the question: "When and where to build markets?" Capital seems obvious, but cities like Quesadilla and Tortilla feel like good candidates also. 

We get a great scientist next turn. I'm conflicted between golden age vs. academy-enhanced superspecialist.
Breakeven beaker rate is about 50 right now. I'll post all the tech options next turn.

I feel like the long term trajectory will lead us to conquest of Giraflorens. They seem to be a bit weak in terms of cities, food, power, and score(despite Stonehenge).

[RefSteel]

Island city will be founded next turn.

Great timing! Where on the island are we planting it?

I forgot to explain the other settler: It is intended for Site 3B because that area of the empire has more improvements than Carne Asada and Chile Relleno need, especially now that Chile Relleno can work 3/0/2 lakes.

Makes sense: That should also help to establish the border with superdeath. How is his power graph looking?

I think site 7 for the next settler. Quesadilla is working on it at size 5, will be done in 8T, I don't really want to whip it.

Is that its current happy cap? (So one whip anger left? When does it wear off?) How many hammers do we have in the Settler so far?

Just realized that Tortilla should also get a lighthouse because it has 3 freshwater lakes.

It can't, unfortunately; you need to be on a saltwater coast to build a lighthouse. Quesadilla could build one for its lone lake, but probably will have better things to build until its happy cap improves. Ceviche may want one after the Granary though, for its fish and two lakes!

Now I'm trying to make a habit of looking through all city screens before logging out.

Sounds good, as long as you enjoy it! I like doing this just to remind myself of where my cities are at, generally.

Currency comes in next turn. That brings up the question: "When and where to build markets?" Capital seems obvious, but cities like Quesadilla and Tortilla feel like good candidates also.

I agree, as long as we don't have any more-urgent needs. Each market city will also get +2 happiness (from ivory and, by that time, fur) so there may be other cities where it's worth considering lining one up as a multi-pop whip.

This also raises the question of our next tech. Do we need Construction already for Cats and river crossings? As Creative, we also get half-price Colosseums for one extra happiness that way. If we want a golden age though, it would be nice to get some better civic options, at least by the end of the GA. Have Judaism and Confucianism been founded yet? (Note we don't have to trigger the golden age right away if we decide to go that way - unless it looks like we do need Cats ASAP!)

I feel like the long term trajectory will lead us to conquest of Giraflorens. They seem to be a bit weak in terms of cities, food, power, and score(despite Stonehenge).

That sounds likely, yeah. One question is when (i.e. what unit types will likely be the centerpiece of our attack?) - another question is what the global situation looks like. Have our exploring workboats uncovered anything interesting?

[Lazteuq]

T98:
Plemo is asking for 160 gold in return for 20gpt.  I assume this would be cancelled after 10 turns.

Reasons to accept:
-It is profitable
-We don't desperately need that gold right now
-Plemo is not a direct threat
Reasons to not accept:
-This might be a bad deal for all I know.
-Plemo probably crashed his economy by cityspamming and needs cash badly, but it is probably better for us if he is left struggling. 
-Plemo is already very powerful and I don't want him snowballing.

I chose to be cautious and did not accept, but I'd like to hear what RefSteel (and others?) think. I could always re-send that proposal again next turn if we think it's a good idea.
The Plemo train apparently has no brakes. He was the one who got mids! They are in the capital, after just having finished Hanging Gardens. And he isn't even industrious. I'm guessing Gira wanted those mids, being the only industrious leader. Plemo also has 14 cities and higher power than anyone else on the graph:

This graph shows Superdeath's power starting what might be a serious increase.
SPEAKING OF SUPERDEATH.... After closing the Plemo diplo screen, I was greeted by this!:

I can only interpret that as "Give us 150 gold and we won't attack you for some amount of time".
I didn't feel like negotiating with terrorists, so I declined. This was immediately after I founded another city on the border, maybe that really annoyed him or something. 
Considering this apparent threat, I think it's time to fluff up our power numbers a little more.
Our land sort of wraps around his, that makes it a long, hard to defend border.

Technology: Here are the options. I wasn't sure, so left the slider at 0% on Construction by default. We can afford to get it in 3 turns by deficit spending if necessary. 

Albert Einstein the Great Scientist is sitting in the capital, just relaxing.

I just got the idea of chopping out a market in Tortilla and running Merchants for a bulb. Maybe for Guilds?

As a stretch of the naming theme, Cerveza was founded by the fur, I will call the other city on this island Tequila.

Gordita was founded by the sheep near Superdeath

No threatening Praetorian stacks visible, but I bet he's hiding them on purpose.

It can't, unfortunately; you need to be on a saltwater coast to build a lighthouse. Quesadilla could build one for its lone lake, but probably will have better things to build until its happy cap improves. Ceviche may want one after the Granary though, for its fish and two lakes!

Darn. I should know that mechanic by now. Ceviche already is working on a lighthouse(34/60).

Is that its current happy cap? (So one whip anger left? When does it wear off?) How many hammers do we have in the Settler so far?

Quesadilla's whip anger wears off in 4T. Yes, size 5 is the cap. Settler is at 54/100.
Enchilada recently grew to size8 and is angry, but the fur will be connected in 4T to help with that.

I'm still unsure about tech choices and long-term plan, so I'll post more tomorrow.

[RefSteel]

T98:
Plemo is asking for 160 gold in return for 20gpt.  I assume this would be cancelled after 10 turns.

It could be canceled in 10 turns, yes ... or he could cancel it at any time by declaring war. Especially since we would be in no position to punish him for that and he's the game leader, you were absolutely right to refuse. As for desperately needing the gold ... I'm pretty sure we do!

I can only interpret that as "Give us 150 gold and we won't attack you for some amount of time".
I didn't feel like negotiating with terrorists, so I declined. This was immediately after I founded another city on the border, maybe that really annoyed him or something.

I approve of this decision too! I don't think it's border tension; Gordita is in a very conservative, non-combative spot. Superdeath is just trying to extort stuff. "I am aggressive Rome! Give me free stuff or I will ruin your game!" I'm sure in his thread, he will be predicting our upcoming untimely demise since we disagreed, but that's better than giving in to extortion, frankly.

Considering this apparent threat, I think it's time to fluff up our power numbers a little more.
Our land sort of wraps around his, that makes it a long, hard to defend border.

True; and this brings us to...

Technology: Here are the options. I wasn't sure, so left the slider at 0% on Construction by default. We can afford to get it in 3 turns by deficit spending if necessary.

I think it might well be necessary. It's even possible that just teching Construction, building Cats, and "showing" him one (e.g. putting one on the plains hill 2W of Fajita if he doesn't road toward it between now and then) might be enough to convince him we're not a good target. (Maybe offer rice for rice and/or open borders at that point to drive the point home) but river bridges will be helpful for worker and unit logistics, 40h colosseums for +1 happiness will be welcome in our core cities, and cats will be valuable on both attack and defense for a long time to come.

Albert Einstein the Great Scientist is sitting in the capital, just relaxing.

Having a golden age in our back pocket will be helpful. If we didn't need Construction, I'd have a bunch of suggestions for what to do with the Golden Age, but....

I just got the idea of chopping out a market in Tortilla and running Merchants for a bulb. Maybe for Guilds?

Right now, a GM would bulb Metal Casting for us. In order for one to bulb Guilds, we would need the prereqs for Guilds itself, plus Code of Laws, Alphabet, Civil Service, and Paper. Of note, if we get Metal Casting, Alphabet, and Code of Laws before the religious line, a GM would bulb civil service....

No threatening Praetorian stacks visible, but I bet he's hiding them on purpose.

Naturally, yeah.

Quesadilla's whip anger wears off in 4T. Yes, size 5 is the cap. Settler is at 54/100.

Cool; thanks. I imagine it will want to pause the settler in 3 turns to grow some more then?

I'm still unsure about tech choices and long-term plan, so I'll post more tomorrow.

Sounds good. We should probably start by making sure we have a long-term. If we could be sure superdeath would leave us alone long enough, teching code of laws for Confucianism, Caste-in-a-golden-age, and courthouses would be tempting, but....