[Lurkers] Putting the Old Fogeys into a List

[civac2]

I am very curious how Lewwyn's development looks like in 20/30 turns. His opening flies in the face of all advice I have ever gotten but he seems to be pulling it off. So far he has been able to juggle things so that each city at least has one power tile to work almost from founding (except for the 4th city which he had to relocate).

[pindicator]

A focused Lewwyn is a very strong civ player.

Thanks for the thoughts, Fintourist. It's nice to have some good words said about the map, though it does obviously have its flaws.

[Fintourist]

A focused Lewwyn is a very strong civ player.

Thanks for the thoughts, Fintourist. It's nice to have some good words said about the map, though it does obviously have its flaws.

I have not looked at the map close enough that I could really state anything strong about the actual balance. But overall it seems to me like all the starts are playable enough, it's a nice looking map and we will have an exciting mid game ahead of us 

[Miguelito]

A couple nights ago I did more simming for the game and had another epiphany. I have come to the conclusion that GRANARIES SUCK.

That's right. GRANARIES. SUCK.

In this game, for us.

Now why is that? Well, we don't have a single 6f tile in reachable distance.



Not a one. We do have a good amount of fish, but we're not in a position to build any lighthouses yet. The difference between a 4f tile and a 5f tile is not 20% - it's actually 33% because one tile provides a 2f surplus and one tile provides a 3f surplus. (This is an oversimplification because all cities start with a 2f surplus from the city tile, but just bear with me here.) Two 4f tiles is equal to one 6f tile, and actually generally worse because it takes time to get the second citizen and you have to pay maintenance for it! Also your food box is bigger at size 2. Since we don't have discounted granaries and we can't grow all that quickly, we barely want to whip and the granaries are just not that efficient in terms of ROI. So originally I was planning to build a granary in BB after the monument as a matter of standard operating procedure, now I've decided that's just not very good and it will be doing a unit next. As Gaspar says, if you're not constantly scrutinizing everything you're doing, you're probably not optimizing your civ very well. (Well he didn't say it specifically like that, but that's a corollary.)

Does that logic hold? Sure 4 food tiles with granaries not as awesome as 6 food tiles, but what is even worse are 4 food tiles without granaries, exacxtly twice as bad. Or what am I missing?

[Old Harry]

Are you going to grow and whip regularly or just reach a size and stick at it? If the former the granary keeps paying off as you keep growing population (then killing them). If the latter then your granary saves you a bit of food on your way to the desired size, but probably doesn't justify the hammers.

[AutomatedTeller]

A couple nights ago I did more simming for the game and had another epiphany.  I have come to the conclusion that GRANARIES SUCK.

That's right.  GRANARIES.  SUCK.

In this game, for us.

Now why is that?  Well, we don't have a single 6f tile in reachable distance.



Not a one.  We do have a good amount of fish, but we're not in a position to build any lighthouses yet.  The difference between a 4f tile and a 5f tile is not 20% - it's actually 33% because one tile provides a 2f surplus and one tile provides a 3f surplus. (This is an oversimplification because all cities start with a 2f surplus from the city tile, but just bear with me here.) Two 4f tiles is equal to one 6f tile, and actually generally worse because it takes time to get the second citizen and you have to pay maintenance for it!  Also your food box is bigger at size 2.  Since we don't have discounted granaries and we can't grow all that quickly, we barely want to whip and the granaries are just not that efficient in terms of ROI.  So originally I was planning to build a granary in BB after the monument as a matter of standard operating procedure, now I've decided that's just not very good and it will be doing a unit next.  As Gaspar says, if you're not constantly scrutinizing everything you're doing, you're probably not optimizing your civ very well. (Well he didn't say it specifically like that, but that's a corollary.)

Does that logic hold? Sure 4 food tiles with granaries not as awesome as 6 food tiles, but what is even worse are 4 food tiles without granaries, exacxtly twice as bad. Or what am I missing?

I think the question is not whether granaries actually suck (I'm sure those cities will eventually get one), but whether it's worth building them NOW and whipping a lot, given that there isn't a lot of food.  Maybe it makes more sense to just grow and slow build settlers, rather than whipping in a granary, grow slowly, whip out settlers and grow slow.y

[Fintourist]

Yeah, I think Noble's comment is more about granaries not providing as much value as on some other maps and it's not really about whether they should not still build granaries.

If you are in slavery, the situations where you should not build a granary are pretty rare even if your food surplus is limited. Sure, sometimes you have for example a city with a 4-food tile and two gold tiles and you just forever stagnate at size 3, but in most cases granary simply is the best option if you look a city in isolation. Of course in early game, getting a worker or settler or a crucial military unit out ASAP can have more value (which could be a case for NobleGas here), but building any other infra before granaries is typically just bad.

[Fintourist]

Having helped SD with the early part of the game causes me some headache as it's hard to not comment on what he is doing..

Okay basic plan is: I whipped a galley in the capital to ferry the settler im going to whip in G to the Stone/fish/gold island to the west. Immediately chop a granary and whip a monument and ferry over an axe and eventually maybe tech archery to keep that city safe. Next settler will be out of the capital and it will go to the clam/2fur/horse city. Stealing the fish from the capital to quickly whip a granary/monument for its own clam.

Down south, its a bit more messy, but just completing a road to give me more security should someone try and attack my somewhat exposed banana/clam/stone city down there. Also, Found sheep to the north east of G for another decent city somewhere up there. My scout will see if there is anything else up there.

In any case it seems like he is very much headed towards drama, which was the most important outcome.  He decided to go for quite an aggressive plant towards Serdoa, which starts slow and will be hard to defend. And it seems like the next city will create tensions with Lewwyn. In the meanwhile I think he very much needs the fur happiness to keep the snowball going, but that will have to wait now.

On the micro side there are at least a number of things that seem off. Say, why is library being built at Nanjing and not a lighthouse? And why is there a non-river cottage at the city while the capital would very much like it's riverside grass tiles improved etc.

Let's see, I'm optimistic that the start was good enough that SD will have resources to cause some waves in any case 

[pindicator]

Lewwyn's about to have his heart broken on that circumnavigation. That's one of the good mess ups I made. I think pre Optics circumnavigation is too strong for PRO in CtH and I'm glad it's not an option here

[civac2]

It may be too strong in general.