[Spoilers] SavageMoogle of the Celts

[BobRoberts]

That's a lovely sight to see for celts! Congrats!

Cheers for the writeups.

[SleepingMoogle]

Thanks! Gallic Warriors can actually be trained with Copper as well, but the Iron resource is (at this moment) looking to be more easily defendable than the southern Copper resource. At least until there's more cities built in that direction. Vienne's borders won't take too long to pop again, so the resource will be comfortable inside of Celtic lands by that time.

Anyway, I think that next turn I'll actually swap Vienne's build to a Buddhist missionary and 2-pop whip it instead of whipping the Monastery. Right now the monastery wouldn't really do much except generate some culture and beakers, and getting Buddhism to spread to Tolosa should help it grow a little bit faster.

I gained visibility on Germany's demographics this turn, so I took some pictures of the current graphs:













What these graphs tell me is that Timmy's looking to be the one to most efficiently expand. His Food, Production and Power scores significantly outpace the rest of us, and if he does have an Academy next turn, his GNP probably won't be far behind. In comparison, my scores kind of stink. GNP might look decent, but a lot of it comes from various culture sources, and especially the Food graph is just meh. Should I have settled Tolosa before Vienne to more rapidly expand? I'm certain that there have been instances when I made sub-par decisions. The good news is that I'm learning a lot from this game, and try to apply it to recover from what looks to be a slow start.

At least I'm doing well in the culture chart.

[SleepingMoogle]

Time for some more diplomacy. I sent off a quick message to Timmy, to try and see if he was indeed the one who generated the scientist, but also to keep the communications open. Timmy does seem to be a pretty silent player so far, so nudging him every now and then will probably be required.

Greetings Timmy,

Word has reached our lands recently great mind emerging in a distant realm. Our own scientists have deemed it possible that this person was born in Khmer lands, and if this is correct we would like to extend our congratulations on this accomplishments, and express our admiration towards your centers of learning. We have no doubt that a scientist of such caliber would be a great asset to your nation.

We would also like to congratulate your scouting party near our lands in succesfully fending off a barbarian warband. Given its proximity to one of our cities, this outcome was as much of a relief to the citizens of Vienne as it must have been for you. If you wish for your scouting party to travel further northwest, please be aware that you are travelling into uncharted territory. We will pray for your scout's continued good fortune, and hope that you will consider sharing the fruits of your exploration with us.

With sincere regards,
-SleepingMoogle

The second paragraph contains a request to share maps if Timmy's scout continues NW. I expect that Timmy will ask for something in return. If it prevents me from having to expend units to scout the area though, it may be a good idea to do so.

Also, I received a new message from Sandover:

Dear Advisor,

May I inquire whether you intend to claim any wonders in the near future? The situation is such that Egyptian researchers are unsure of what technological advancement to pursue next, and I'm trying to come up with a solution that allows us to construct yet another glorious wonder of the world, as Confucianism is a lost cause. I hope you're willing to share with me your intentions, as I'm not looking to compete in a lost race. Be truthful in your answer and I shall share with you the goal of our research, once it's decided.

Regards,

Pharaoh Sandover of Egypt

I haven't responded to it yet, as I'm hoping Twinkletoes will get back to me about the message I sent him soon. It sounds like Sandover's still feeling hurt that I didn't share every little detail with him, and in not so many words demands to know my future plans. It's beginning to feel less and less likely that I'll reach out to Egypt as an ally this game. Sorry Sandover, but when the game is finished and you're reading this, expecting other Civs to be completely open with you from the start is unlikely to generate a lot of sympathy, especially since you yourself are sharing very little.

Anyway, since I already told others I have no immediate wonder plans, telling this to Sandover won't really cost me anything. Perhaps we will manage to keep diplomacy more or less civil, but Egypt is turning out to be not quite the Civ I was hoping for.

[SleepingMoogle]

Twinkletoes sent me a message back about Sandover. Somehow his conclusions don't really surprise me.

Exalted Brennus.

Many thanks for the suggestion of a shared 'enlightenment' at a later date - my pagan priests are sometimes so disappointing. It is something we shall consider highly when circumstances are more amenable.

Reading your words regarding diplomacy with Sandover brought back sharp memories of our experiences with the Pharaoh. He is remarkably quick to jump to conclusions and intensely inquisitive with little equal feedback in return. I have already received criticism of my foreign policy, casting aspersions about my honesty and truthfulness alongside a remarkably poorly veiled threat. I see an Egyptian invasion as an inevitability in the future, rather than a possibility. There is always some hope for change before the first blow is struck, but I am well prepared for the worst. Therefore I sympathise with your predicament and am happy to share my experience with you as a token of my respect for both your civilisation and your diplomacy.

I am much more straight up with my diplomacy, I am upfront and honest and genuinely want to play an honourable game, I hope that we can work together.

Yours sincerely,

Chancellor Twinkletoes of the Germano-British Republic

I'm not certain to what extent Sandover would actually be able to attack Twinketoes. From what Bobchillingworth told me, he has a fair amount of cities, and not all that much military. So unless he starts pumping out units like crazy, attacking TT would just expose his own cities to barb ravages.

Anyway, I sent Sandover a short message back to let him know I'm not going after any wonders right now.

Pharaoh Sandover,

Celtic resources are currently dedicated to improving infrastructure and defending our lands. At this time, we have no immediate plans to commence large scale construction projects, so if you wish to design structures that would surpass even the wondrous Hanging Gardens in splendor, please rest assured that the Celtic people would not object to such an endeavour and will eagerly await tales of your efforts.

It is unfortunate to learn that you have decided not to commit resources to the discovery of Confucianism, however we do hope that our previous message will have prevented you from expending research on this project, only to see the Etheopians found it first.

-SleepingMoogle

[SleepingMoogle]

Today's turns may end up being delayed because of me. When I checked my mail this morning to see if the turn had come around to me, it was still Timmy's turn. He did play and forwarded the save during my timeslot, unfortunately I just didn't remember to check again until I read TT's message in the tech thread. Hopefully because we'll still be able to get the turns done since it is a weekend.

Sorry about that guys!


On to turn 62 then..

With Iron Working finished, I set research onto Metal Casting. Since scooter is going for Code of Laws to found Confucianism, Currency loses some priority although I will want to pick it up at some point. Additionally, I have more than enough happiness at the moment to be able to ignore Monarchy a while longer. Forges will help my cities a lot, and I'd like to have them built and ready when I finish researching the top of the tech tree and suddently have a ton of unlocked Wonders availble.

The barbs actually behaved well in between turns too. The Warrior that was standing on top of the Iron resource last turn attacked the mini-stack and got shot down by the Archer. He gained another XP point from defending, and unlocked the Heroic Epic in the process! The Warrior NW of Vienne decided the Archer in the forest across the river wasn't really worth the trouble, and instead is moving around the lake. I moved my own Warrior on top of the Iron resource to wait for him (the Archer is currently healing, using the promotion at this point wasn't really needed).
The Barb Warrior north of Bibracte attacked the Archer blocking his path and was killed in the process. I moved the Archer NE on top of a hill that will block anything coming from the NE. The Barb Warrior west of Tolosa similarly attacked the Archer next to him and lost. Finally, the Archer to the south attacked and killed the Warrior who moved onto open ground in between turns, giving me a second HE-ready unit in the process!

Two new Barb Warriors emerged out of the fog. One the the west of Tolosa, and another west of Vienne. Along with the Warrior who is currently taking the tourist route around Vienne's lake, those are all the barbs currently visible.

Since one of the Barbs emerged from the possible 5th city site, I decided to move an Archer onto the forest next to him and do some scouting in the process:



JACKPOT!

With pigs and corn, and no less than 5 hills to work, this should make for a dynamite HE city. I'll definitely want to grab this spot in the very near future.

Other than that bit of rather fortunate news, Tolosa is now finally linked up with the rest of my cities. The Worker will link up the Copper next. Bibracte's Worker is standing on the tile east of the Corn right now, and will begin constructing a farm next turn. Roading the tile isn't really a priority; all those forests give a good amount of health to the cities. The third Worker has briefly paused his road-laying plans and is hurrying over towards the Iron to mine it. I will probably road the forest south of the tile first. This will keep the Worker out of danger, and means I won't lose a turn moving back off the hill after mining it.

Vienne has swapped builds to a Buddhist Monastery, and will whip it next turn. It will probably follow up with another missionary for the fourth city, to let Bibracte work on a Settler/Worker pair. Tolosa is still working on its Granary. I'm not certain if whipping it to completion is the right way to go here, even if the city is working unimproved tiles. Here's a screenshot of the city itself right now:



My early idea of making this a commerce city is a bit marred by a large patch of plains tiles around the city core. I'm not sure what to do with it yet, for now I'll just focus on getting the resources hooked up, and cottaging the grassland.

Getting ready for work now, so diplomacy will come later.

[SleepingMoogle]

Some rambling here.. thoughts just running for a bit.

Right now I'm having a bit of a dilemma, which comes from enjoying the best diplomatic relations with the two Civs that also happen to be my neighbours. From a long-term meta-gaming point of view, eventually we'll all run out of room to expand into, and at that point wars are bound to break out. So whom will I end up performing the diplomatic backstab on?

I'm certain that this is a question that both scooter and Twinkletoes will ask themselves at some point, but the answer for them should probably be easier than it is for me. Egypt-German relations appear to be pretty bad already, with TT being convinced it will come to war before long. Scooter's plans are still a bit up in the air, but unless he's been having a lot more warm talks with Timmy than he has with me, expanding further west into fertile jungle territory should be more appealing than going into the plains and tundra-heavy north.

For now, it makes sense to me to keep up relations with both and try to set them against one another when the opportunity presents itself. But that doesn't help my own expansion once the land runs out. I'm actually thinking at this point that Sandover going after TT in the near future may not be a bad thing for me. Even though I might lose a neighbour, I would have a large amount of land to expand into directly to my west. Compared to the south, where Celtic and Ethiopian borders are already more or less within visible range to each other, and being able to expand to the west for the foreseeable future suddenly it pretty appealing.

As to whether an attack by Sandover would be successful, I really don't have an answer to that. As far as I'm aware, Egypt has a fair amount of cities compared to others, but not too much more military units. For now, it looks like Sandover's been able to keep his lands Barb free, but he will need to keep units home while he goes to war or fear losing his own lands in the process. So we will need to see a significant buildup of military first. I'll probably have visibility on his demographics before that happens (and I'm certain Twinkletoes already does), so an attack probably wouldn't come as a surprise. Additionally, the map script may end up working against Sandover. A great strength of War Chariots is their mobility, but with so many hills and forests around, they may find themselves bogged down and lose Sandover the possibility of threatening large amounts of land.

Twinkletoes doesn't have access to his UU yet. However, his Oracle build will have probably given his Metal Casting, and being Industrious, his half-cost Forges should allow him to crank out units fairly quickly. Additionally, his compact empire may actually be easier for him to defend. So what we may end up seeing is a long, bloody battle with no quick winner. This is assuming both players will have roughly the same MP experience. I don't know how good or bad either is against a human opponent, so for now we'll just have to wait and see.

[SleepingMoogle]

I'm chatting with Bobchillingworth when all of a sudden he asks me whether I'm planning to go for the Apostolic Palace. Apparently he will have a Prophet in some turns whom he might use to bulb Theology. I think my response probably best summed up my feelings about that idea.

so let me get this straight.. you've built a temple and are running a priest specialist, to bulb a tech that already lost a major benefit, in order to build a wonder that is expensive even for an industrious leader for a minor hammer benefit when all other Civs are happily expanding away?
I don't know, but that really seems rather bizarre to me.

Really.. Bob's currently last in score, and he wants to compound that problem by going for the AP? He should be focussing on his other trait and spam Settlers to remedy his current position! And I'm not saying that just because I don't want to race an Industrious leader.

Anyway, I managed to convince him to let me get the AP, and have him go after the Pyramids instead. He should be able to pick that one up unless someone else is already near completing it and there's no real indication that anyone is. He didn't mention it in so many words, but he probably has Stone available and combined with his Industrious trait, construction shouldn't take too long.

I kind of bluffed to get there though, making him believe I'd soon have Forges up and running (soon is pretty relative hehe), and the ability to sink a large amount of hammers into the wonder before he'd even get his Prophet out. Ugh.. that did rather spook me though. I'll have to see if I can start setting aside hammers for its construction pretty soon. Maybe another city (Tolosa perhaps?) can take over Worker/Settler building once it's grown a little.

[SleepingMoogle]

Turn 63:

No new barbs appeared this turn. The barb near the future city attacked the Archer next to him and lost, while the other two are both headed towards Vienne. I'll probably be able to take out both by T65, ending current barb threats. I'm certain that more will spawn before long, but it should give me some time to heal the units and reposition them accordingly.

A quick diplomatic interlude in the form of a message from Sandover:

Dear Advisor,

Thank you for sharing your intentions. I'm mostly considering the Great Library and MoM at this point but I am yet to hear back from other leaders of their desires, so I can't yet tell you where I'll eventually be heading. I'm sort of surprised you're not making an attempt at the Apostolic Palace, as I assumed that was the main reason behind grabbing Theology, but I guess Theocracy-fueled Guerilla units have their uses as well. You've sure managed to scare the Chancellor of Germany, whom I've recently regained contact with.

I've conferred with Scooter himselves, and while there's always the risk of some dishonesty I've decided to trust him on his word regarding his process in setting up a Code of Laws for his people. Bobchillingworth of Rome seems eager to spread the faith of Hinduism into Egypt, so I trust that the religious desires of my people will eventually be met.

Regards,

Pharaoh Sandover of Egypt

This was actually more forthcoming than I had expected. A welcome change to be sure! He wasn't kidding when he mentioned Code of Laws, as Confusianism was FIDL this turn. I'll send a congratulatory message to scooter later on.

Anyway, I don't really have the intention to go after the Great Library or Mausoleum myself, so I sent him a quick message back wishing him luck with it. Additionally, I sent him a message about this situation:



WORKER STEAL!

*cough* Actually I just requested OB so my warrior can move past. I'll have to get in touch with Bob as he mentioned his scout had run into one of Sandover's cities and was currently moving around it. If he is on the other side of the border, we should meet in-game within the next turn or two.

Greetings Pharaoh Sandover,

Thank you for sharing with us some of your ideas from the future. The Celtic people have no plans at this time to construct the wonders that you mentioned, so we wish you the best of luck with their construction should you decide to go after them. While we do plan to construct the Apostolic Palace ourselves, we probably view it more as the crowning our religious achievements than as a vital part of our future. Thus, we will not be seeking to construct it as quickly as possible, but rather pace the effort alongside the peaceful expansion of our lands and improving the infrastructure of our cities.

One of our scouting parties has reported to have reached your borders, near the city of Nubian. As we do not wish to violate your borders, we humbly request your blessing to allow them passage through a small part of your frontier land that does not appear to house either citizenry or points of strategic importance. The scouting party plans to be inside of your borders no longer than needed, and to plot a course towards the southwest afterwards.

Best regards,
-SleepingMoogle

As a quick aside, am I undervalueing the Apostolic Palace, or doe everyone else seem to overvalue it? The hammer bonus is very nice, but it it really worth the large hammer cost to construct the wonder this early in the game? I'd much rather build the wonder while expanding than making it a main focus.

Anyway, back at home Vienne was double-whipped this turn to complete Tolosa's Buddhist Missionary, taking it down to size 2, but regrowing to size 3 at the end of the turn. There's 20 hammers worth of overflow, and I'm undecided whether to sink them into a second missionary for my fourth city, or into the Buddhist Monastery and pick up some bonus hammers from OR that way.

Bibracte, which now has a Christian presence courtesy of the missionary, still needed 3 population to whip it's Settler. I don't really want to knock back the city to size 3 when planning to hire a Priest, so I let it be for one more turn. Next turn only two population will be required, which will be a lot more manageable. I'm not quite sure what to build afterwards, but I'll probably want at least one more Archer to support Vienne, which has pretty much been the focal point of Barbarian aggression so far. Maybe I'll start letting the overflow go into the AP, just to get started on it.

Tolosa is still waiting to whip its Granary to completion. By this point, it actually looks better to just wait until size 3 and then 1-pop whip it, since both the Corn and Copper will be improved within a few turns. One Worker has started farming the Corn this turn, and another will Mine the copper next turn. Finally, the third one is currently building a road towards the Iron in the north.

[SleepingMoogle]

More diplomatic followup. I decided not to engage TT in discussions about land distribution yet, as most of my cities are currently headed in his direction anyway. Instead I'll probably wait until he brings it up, and butter him a bit in the meantime. At the very least, I wanted to dissolve any concerns that I was going to invade him anytime soon.

Chancellor Twinkletoes,

Thank you for being so honest and forthcoming in your last message. We must admit that we reached many of the same conclusions regarding Egypt's leadership that you have. Although it appears that the previous misunderstanding has been more or less resolved, relations have cooled and King Brennus has resolved to be cautious in future dealings with the Pharaoh. It is unfortunate that your future prospects are looking bleak, but we will pray that large conflicts will not this world for a long time to come.

It may not mean anything, but at least Pharaoh Sandover has not yet indicated any signs of future aggression towards the Germano-British Republic. Indeed, he mentioned that the founding of Christianity in Celtic lands had actually caused concern amongst your leadership, for the possibility to a Theocracy-assisted military build-up this might pose. We would like to dispell those concerns, as we have no current plans to give our our religious diversity, nor do we have hostile feelings or intent towards your land. Our military forces are wholly commited to fighting off barbarian incursions, and defending our cities.

-SleepingMoogle

Timmy sent a response to my earlier message, noting that the scientist wasn't his, and acknowledging the possibility of future map trades. I sent him a quick reply back to keep communication going.

Sorry at late replay, been quite busy. (Also means I'm not writing in character...)
Great Scientist was not mine. Thanks for the tip on the scouting. I am taking a bit of risk sending into uncharted lands instead of exploring yours in relative safety, so that might be a trade I would want to make if it explores a decent amount.

Greetings Timmy,

This is quite interesting indeed. If the scientist was not yours, then our next bet would be that the scientist is Ethiopian, who also appear to have founded Confucianism recently. We are certainly living in interesting times.

Best of luck to you scout and his exploration efforts!

-SleepingMoogle

I also sent a message to scooter, congratulating him on founding Confucianism and asking it he was the one to generate the scientiest. Additionally, I mentioned settling the Horse city within the next few turns, and shared that I have no immediate plans to expand further south. This should keep us pretty happy with each other I hope.

Greetings scooter,

Thank you for your kind words. It appears as though we must congratulate you in return for founding Confucianism, and we hope that your citizenry will find happiness in adopting its teachings. Additionally, word has reached us of a great scientist being born recently. We initially suspected that he or she may have been Khmer in origin, but apparently this was not the case. Would that mean the scientist was born in Ethiopia then? In that case we would congratulate you again!

A group of Celtic settlers is currently prepating to travel to the site we discussed earlier to found a city there. We have located another suitable city site to our west, and this is likely where our next city will go. After that, it is still a bit up in the air, but should we wish to expand to the south, we will make sure to share this with you beforehand.

Sincerely,
-SleepingMoogle

[regoarrarr]

Thanks for the updates - just checking in to say I'm following along (at least somewhat!)

What are your plans for generating enough prophets to make the shrines for all your religions (or are you?)

As for the AP, it's useful in and of itself, but I think one of the better benefits is that it also opens up the possibility to combine it with UoS, Sistine Chape, and/or the Spiral Minaret for the really dynamite "monk" economy, especially if you're spiritual (1/2 price temples) which I can't remember if you are or not