[SPOILERS - PBEM17] Kyan Does Dallas. The Orange Sensation.

[oledavy]

My reply to Rego regarding the NAP and him spreading Judaism to Templar lands.

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Hey Dan!

Sorry for the delay in responding to this message. In between all the confusion of trying to pass the save on, I forgot about it.

The NAP

I would like to extend the NAP as well. What time frame are you looking for in terms of an extension? You mentioned you wanted to renegotiate the terms of the treaty, what did you have in mind?

Missionaries

I appreciate your offer, but I have already brokered a deal with Shoot to spread Buddhism throughout my empire. I know this may seem to be a weedy move in light of your near-completion of the Apostolic Palace - I just have no interest in attempting to leverage that advantage by building a priest economy.

Best Regards,
Dave[/COLOR]

[oledavy]

290 AD has come and gone. I finished researching feudalism, but found I couldn't build longbowmen? Turns out we still haven't researched hunting or archery, along with polytheism or monotheism - interesting tech gaps for this point in the game, forcing me to take a detour off my civil service push.



I dialed up full gold, putting the scientist beakers into poly so I can push through to monotheism and organized religion. Should I both going to hunting and archery? I'm not experienced in MP warfare, so I'm unsure whether just to push to civil service and get macemen online for city defense or to detour and make sure I get longbowmen.



The other significant thing I did this turn was que up the Great Wall in Constantinople, due in three turns. It's a weak wonder to be sure, the only reason it has lasted this long. However, I'm going for it for three reasons:

1) Low opportunity cost. With stone, it is really cheap to build and does not require a significant displacement of other builds.
2)+100% great general generation. I'll take half of Imperialistic's abilty, thank you very much With all the warring that is going to come later in this game, getting a couple extra GG's could prove useful.
3) Fail Gold - If by some chance someone beats me to it, I got fail gold to console me and help me get to civil service faster.

[Lord Parkin]

I dialed up full gold, putting the scientist beakers into poly so I can push through to monotheism and organized religion. Should I both going to hunting and archery? I'm not experienced in MP warfare, so I'm unsure whether just to push to civil service and get macemen online for city defense or to detour and make sure I get longbowmen.

Depends whether you're anticipating a war soon or not. Having both is generally good though. Hunting and Archery should be dirt cheap at this point of the game, so it won't really slow you down much by picking them up. Don't forget there's no beaker loss regardless of overflow in Civ4, so you can research the cheap techs at your regular research rate and keep the overflow for your next tech.

The other significant thing I did this turn was que up the Great Wall in Constantinople, due in three turns. It's a weak wonder to be sure, the only reason it has lasted this long. However, I'm going for it for three reasons:

1) Low opportunity cost. With stone, it is really cheap to build and does not require a significant displacement of other builds.

Fair enough, the Great Wall is pretty much a no-brainer with stone.

2)+100% great general generation. I'll take half of Imperialistic's abilty, thank you very much With all the warring that is going to come later in this game, getting a couple extra GG's could prove useful.

Technically more like a quarter of Imperialistic's ability, since the +100% GG rate is only valid within your borders (as opposed to everywhere). Still, not bad.

3) Fail Gold - If by some chance someone beats me to it, I got fail gold to console me and help me get to civil service faster.

Sure. This might even be the best case outcome considering you have stone. Of course, you have to rely on an external factor if this is what you're aiming for (someone else building it), which isn't so good.

Looks like you're definitely keeping on top of things with the updates.

[oledavy]

@LP thank you for the clarification on the Great Wall's effect on GG generation, was under the impression that it affected battles both inside and outside the cultural borders.

So, which is better: Great Wall or fail gold?

The Great Wall's effect would be cool to have. However, ideally most of the fighting in this game will be taking place outside my borders. Realistically, this cannot be the case. At some point after the 3v1 vs. NoSpace and their likely destruction), I will probably become the board leader and may be on the receiving end of a dogpile. In this apocalyptic scenario, the Great Wall would probably net me 2-3 extra GG's. Additionally, I get approximately 500 GS points, over the course of the entire game, speeding along my second GP in the works in Constantinople (of course, the RNG gods could make it turn out to be a Great Spy )

Fail gold would amount to something like 100-150 old, saving me approximately 1.5 turns of research. Keeping in mind that Civ4 is a snowball game, gaining that edge at this point could prove extremely useful. Granted this presumes someone else is building it and completes it sooner or later.

So, three options:
1) build great wall - 2-3 GG's (likely) in the late game, 500 GS points, +culture (for what it's worth).
2) build great wall to near completion and save for fail gold - 100-150 gold.
3) Build great wall to near completion, save for fail gold, if not taken, build right before advent of war within my cultural borders (take the +100% effect , less GS points)

Of course, this entire discussion could be pointless and someone else is one turn away from completing it

Thoughts anyone?

[Lord Parkin]

In a game with barbarians off, it comes down to personal preference really. In a highly competitive game like this one I'd usually veer towards going for the gold, but owning the wonder is pretty good too. There's always the possibility that you could leave the wonder near-completion for a while, and if no-one else gets it then you can pick it up down the line when you think you might want the GG points. Of course then you lose the Great Spy points from the wonder for the turns you didn't build it.

Pretty much a 50/50 situation really - neither option is particularly better than the other, just different. Just go for whatever you prefer.

[oledavy]

Turn 84 has come and gone. I turned the science slider up to 70%, which will allow me to burn through poly, mono, hunting and archery all in one turn each, filling in that tech gap - all the while allowing me to save up more gold for the push into Civil Service.

It occurs to me that I haven't yet posted a picture of the empire, so, for anyone who just found this thread:




I started work on a Settler in Damascus to found the last city on my starting continent.

A marginal location to be sure, and will likely be little more than a fishing village. However, it redeems the silk resource and can share pigs with Jerusalem. Haven't decided on a name yet. If anyone has idea along the Templar naming theme I've been going with, would be happy to see it.

This turn, I also realized just how weak our military is.


It would utterly collapse under a determined attack. On Demos, the average is 30,000 greater than the size of our military (Though, we're about to get a boost from hunting and archery). Fortunately, NoSpace is about to be tied up with Shoot the Moon, and Darreljs and Rego have NAPs in effect, for the time being anyway. So an attack within the next 8 turns in unlikely. Will feel better once I can renegotiate the NAP with Rego though. Definitely a case where I hope my diplomacy makes up for my weak military, at least until I can build it up.

Thanks to Lord Parkin for his posts on whether or not to complete the Great Wall, still haven't completely decided which course of action to take, will have to make up my mind before next turn. On a related note, the Chichen Itza is still up (I love how it goes from worst in Civ4 to best in Civ5) and we have stone.....thoughts anyone?

[oledavy]

Another turn has come and gone - no interesting screenshots this time. Things remained quiet in the Templar Realms. I decided in the end to go with completing the Great Wall instead of hoping on fail gold. Poly finished, I dialed up full gold and went into Monotheism. Shoot's missionary is inbound and due next turn for Edessa.

Diplomacy-Wise a couple things happened. I caught Rego on G-chat and inquired about the NAP. I proposed a 20 turn extension under the same terms (five turn cool-down period, cannot announce termination until five turns before the conclusion of the NAP at the earliest). He said he would get back to me about it tomorrow, and that he needed to speak to Cyneheard first. Honestly, dialed my warning meter up just a tad, but I'm probably just paranoid

I spoke to Darrell and caught him up to speed on what Shoot was planning. He's getting paper in 5 turns! I guess a liberalism beeline is out of the question at this point.

So, the biggest question confronting me now is what tech path to take? I'm considering beelining to gunpowder to start prepping for the war. However, definitely need to grab civil service and calendar first, am still undecided regarding hunting and archery. What should my tech path be?

[oledavy]

After having some time to play, it's time to sit down and figure out where I'm going with this game. To anyone who's been following this thread since the beginning of the game - I apologize - am probably about to restate much of the obvious. Also, anyone please correct me if I make a really delusional statment or claim in the next few paragraphs.

First of all: my goal for this game. I don't truly expect I will win vs. all these experienced MP players when this is my only my first PBEM game. However, I'm going to give it my best and try to make a good showing.

For now, this game is and will remain a buildfest. However, given these players, I doubt it will remain that way for too much longer. I don't think anyone in this game wants to sit around and play a peaceful game until someone builds a spaceship. This game is likely going to turn into a late game world war to see who wins and loses. Conquest, domination, and possibly space race are the only possible victory conditions. I say space race because it is possible the game lasts that long and the war stalemates - in addition to no nukes to stop spaceship building in its tracks. In this scenario obviously the player with the biggest stick and the skill to use it well is going to win.

Navies will be of pre-eminent importance on this map, not only to move troops but to prevent those crippling blockades - making our UU even more powerful. I imagine the late game will see large Sirian Doctrine Fleets running around, wreaking havoc. Large fleets will make defending cities difficult and possessing the biggest navy a must to protect the core cities.

Kyan's choice of the Dutch on this map was truly inspired, and is definitely the best combo UU and UB on this map. With the notable exception of the Fast Worker, everyone else's UU (War chariot, Jannisary, Quechua) comes too early to be of any great use in a game that will feature large late game wars. I lump the Jannisary in there because of the relatively short lifespan of musketmen before riflemen. If I die at the hands of Jannisaries - I know I'll regret downplaying them here, lol. I just feel they aren't as spectacular on these map settings. Thanks to the East Indiamen, I will have naval dominance from astronomy until frigates come online, and will be able to skip getting transports - building the cheaper East Indiamen instead.

The Dike is an even better choice, and is extremely powerful on this map. The other civ's unique buildings are:

Ottomans - Hamman
Ordinarily, happiness would be the largest limiting factor to a civ's growth, making a building like the Ottoman Hamman really shine. However, on these lush settings, happiness is not near as high a priority.

Inca - Terrace
Ordianarly an overpowered UB, but on this map more marginal because of the lack of nearby neighbors to fight with for borders. Additionally. having judaism means Rego can forego monuments anyway, making the UB less shiny.

Egypt - Obelisk
I could never leverage this wonder to it's full potential in SP, and have yet to see a skilled player use it to its full advantage. Darrell could do it - however, he does not seem to be going to priest economy route so I doubt its being used to its full potential. It also obsoletes with astronomy a crucial tech for this map.

India - Mausoleum
See earlier bit about happiness on a map with lush settings.

Dutch - Dike
The biggest limiting factor I have found on this map is production, Constantinople, my city geared towards hammers, is only making 15 a turn. Jerusalem is probably not going to get above 4 hammers a turn for a long time because of its production poor location. If everyone else's continents are similar to mine, they are also lacking in hills and forests for production. So, the Dike actually improves what this map lacks. Late game, my production is going to be easily higher than anyone else's, which of course means more aragon:

Another proxy effect is that this means cottages will not be as high a priority as normal. I may be able to forego Universal Suffrage for hammers on towns and can run Police State instead, depending on the circumstances at that point in the game. Of course, this means I need to have a large enough navy to protect against blockades of those water tiles


Player Analysis

NoSpace
You two have played a brilliant game so far. Getting the pyramids was a really smart move - the GL maybe not so much since it brought the hammer down on your team. In case anyone has the impression that I have it out for this team from my diplomacy, this is simply not the case - I have nothing against these two players. It just is diplomatically expedient to expand at their expense and imperative that I keep everyone's attention elsewhere, (and not me, the next board leader) while I continue to grow stronger and try to get my UB online. The longer I can prevent a dogpile on myself the better. I'm sorry NoSpace, but with the construction of the GL, you painted a huge target on your chest. Will look forward to meeting you on the battlefield.

Darrelljs
I believe Darrelljs has the best chance to win this game, because in the long run he will probably be able to out-micro me, and with Krill on his side will probably we able to outfight me. I trust Darrelljs, and we have a good working relationship - but if I become the next runaway board leader, I doubt he will standby and let me win the game. He will come after me in a dogpile similar to the one about to confront NoSpace, probably with Shoot and possibly Rego at his side. In our upcoming war with NoSpace, he wants me to contribute fleet while he sends in the marines. Long term - this will give me the edge (as the one having the existing fleet, and therefore a head start on any naval arms race). Short term though, this will mean I have a weaker claim to any conquests from NoSpace, and will not get a GG (which I absolutely NEED for the Heroic Epic). So, I will at least be putting some soldiers ashore when the invasion comes to fight with Darrelljs's stack or start their own separate campaign.

Shoot the Moon
Hard to gauge this player and their potential so far - a lot of it will depend on how much he gets out of the war with NoSpace. We've enjoyed peaceful exchanges so far and I really feel like I can trust and work with him. However, I believe he will be onboard with Darrell if he decides I'm the next runaway, and will go along with a dogpile vs. me. However, in the meantime, looking forward to working together

Regoarrarr
I've already said much about Rego so I won't repeat it all here. Rego failed to leverage his industrious trait early on and lost out on all the powerful early wonders. Also, going against financial civs in a NTT long term is a losing propostition. I believe he will try to mitigate this by running a priest economy to the max and leveraging industrious into the Spiral MInaret and The University of Sankore - which, if he succeeds, will keep him viable for a lot longer. Diplomatically, he is a true loose cannon. Everyone seems to be keeping him at arms length so far. He may be increasingly pressured into a war of conquest to improve his weak position. If there is a dogpile on me later in the game, I feel pretty sure he will join.

So, what does this rambling post amount to?
Basically my goal is to grow unencumbered until Steam Power, and then go hell to leather for a domination win :catapult:

Diplomatically - I need to form strong alliances and keep the attention off me and my growing score for as long as possible. Additionally, I need to try to kill off any potential enemies (a la NoSpace) who could come back and join a dogpile later. If I can survive the iniital attack from the other players when (and if ) I take the lead, I should be set to win the game. I also need to make off with as much spoils from the NoSpace war as I can.

Economically - I need to continue infrastructure builds, prepare for the late game.

Militarily - I need to start thinking about gearing up for war and putting in the infrastructure to make it happen. I also need to start the military build-up for the NoSpace War. Lastly, I absolutely MUST get a 10xp unit for the Heroic Epic in Edessa. I'm trying to decide between Constantinople and Damascus for the Globe Theater Drafting City - have not decided where to put the other national wonders yet.

So, tl;dr version - I now have a plan of sorts regarding how to play this game.

Thanks to anyone who read through that wall of text, I would appreciate any constructive criticism someone has to offer

[oledavy]

I know I just posted that long wall of text, but I just played out the turn and felt the need to update again :P

Shoot's missionary arrived this turn and spread Buddhism to Edessa. I put off converting one turn so the Moai statues could complete. Monotheism finished so I am ready to go into organized religion to build missionaries.



The Great Wall also completed this turn. I briefly flirted with the idea of putting some hammers into the Temple of Artemis, but decided it wasn't worth it and I would have bigger fish to fry after netting Aesthetics. Big civics change coming up, and not quite sure how I am going to handle it yet.

The tech path I eventually decided upon is: Aesthetics->Drama->Civil Service->Paper->Education->Gunpowder. The idea behind this tech path is to get the globe drafting city, Musketmen, and Oxford online as quickly as possible. However, this path skips hunting and archery altogether and ignores calender and construction for the time being. Am a little unsure of this plan, would welcome a critique of my proposed teching order.

On a side note, this turn I began seriously looking into national wonders and what should go where. I've listed out all the National Wonders along with the cities where I plan to put them. The bolded are high priority ones, the italics middle priority ones, and then the unchanged text represents the low priority national wonders.

The Globe Theater - Damascus
Moai Statues - Edessa
The Heroic Epic - Constantinople
Oxford University - Jerusalem
National Epic - Constantinople
Ironworks - Edessa
Wall Street - Unsure
Forbidden Palace - A City Conquered From Nospace
Mt. Rushmore - Unsure
Red Cross
West Point
National Park
Hermitage


Damascus - The future Globe Drafting City. I would have preferred a city with three food bonuses, but the only ones were Jerusalem (our science city) and Constantinople (has enough production to pump out military units, and I want to use as a GP farm)


National Epic and Heroic Epic. It came down to Constantinople or Edessa for the Heroic Epic, and I decided upon Constantinople mostly because it was on the mainland. It has enough hammers to pump out military at a pretty decent pace, and enough food to run 3-4 specialists.


Edessa will receive the Moai statues and eventually, ironworks. With the completion of the Moai, Edessa is going to become a production powerhouse. After using it to produce missionaries, I'm going to convert it into a naval pump.

If anyone thinks my national wonder placement is sub-optimal, would love any suggestions on how they could be more effectively placed.

[mackoti]

How fast can you get out first great person?
Its not worth to wait until then and run a golden age? You will lose now at least 2 turns to get budism as a religion and after that another for civic swap , not worth better try to get out a great person and run a golden age.