Add the "variation for a capital Granary" above to the (er) version 2 masterplan...
Moving the D1 Settler forward by 2 turns requires the B2 Worker micro to be altered, since we now need to keep 1 Worker near to D1 to keep pace. However, only 2 Workers on B2's Cow and Pig works perfectly well, and the earlier Worker #5 can get to the Gems faster. Meanwhile the capital is able to work a pair of Scientists sooner... I got the first Great Person out on turn 53, not that there's anything to do with it! **
For reference Worker #3's micro is forest-plains-hill mine-chop -> Rice farm -> 1t road 1N of capital -> Silver mine -> road back to capital -> road Deer -> road to Rice. The extra roads allow both the capital and the second city to remain healthy in the face of rapid growth.
Added: I'd also build Worker #6 straight after Settler #4 (in the second city), then grow the second city on max food. Worker #5 and #6 will together get the Gems mined by turn 56. Getting that 2/1/7 tile fast is worth delaying Scientists at the second city for a few turns. It's very likely there are further optimisations to the second city's builds, especially more efficient slaving, also bringing the second city forward a turn or 2. As ever, amazing what can be achieved with a little iteration.
** Oh, and since we have a 80+% chance of an early Great Prophet from the capital, we should check the religious situation after Iron Working. Gut feeling was Metal casting next here, with 2 rare metals taking our happy cap up to equal our health cap (roughly size 10 cities). However all of our first 4 cities can make good use of founding a religion - either primarily from border culture, or primarily from Shrine income. At this point Meditation/Polytheism are 2-turn techs. Practically freebies.
On t20, everyone got land points for their first ring. Everyone got 6*2.82=16 points. Ginger Eagle also got a tech... which we couldn't determine for sure. Then I met him this turn:
As marked in the chart, GE got The Wheel. I know that because my own research increased this turn! If we met GE even 1t later, we couldn't know for sure. Hooray for good timing.
Also seen in the above screenshot, we are committed to the Settler build: I just dumped a chop into it. Going back to Stonehenge would still require a whip now, so we may as well finish the settler.
In other good news, GE is not yet in slavery. That means he can't take advantage of the whipping benefits we were just talking about. More importantly, it means he can't build anything except workers/settlers. If he builds phalanxes he'll grow into unhappiness.
And why is he not in slavery? Oh yeah, he chose not to be Spiritual!
t26
M- Henge (work fish/plhill)
B- wrr (work mine)
w1- fin mine copper
w2- chop S of Barcelona
t27
M- (size3) worker (auto gov)
B- spear (work mine)
w1 chop NE of Barc
t28
w2- fin chop S of Barc (into spear)
Alternatively, in spreadsheet form, as seen below. Eagle eyes might see a new naming scheme there that I'm leaning toward. Spanish unemployment is way too political for this site where we come to play God.
Whatever is easiest for you, Timski. I'm having a hard time following the paragraph form without guidance on what tiles you're working and such.
I couldn't see the second screenshot. Thanks for the reports, especially on detail like Wheel Beaker savings and Slavery status, which I otherwise can't judge.
I'll detail "the plan" later today. At this point I have little doubt that the your Settler-Worker-'Henge gambit, with Agriculture after Wheel, is the strongest play, so please proceed on that basis, at least until you get a chance to sim.
(The +16 score confused me for a moment, then I read your land comment and it all made sense.)
GingerEagle's Wheel places them power leader, 22,000, without much doubt.
(It would take some exceptionally quirky moves for anyone else to hold that title - GingerEagle and Kyan losing a Warrior each, Kyan building an Archer, and Dazed building a Barracks. For the 18,750 average to balance, one of Dazed or Kyan (probably Dazed) is still at 15,000, the other (probably Kyan) at 19,000 along with Commodore. While it is possible that there have been Warrior builds offset immediately by deaths, gut feeling is that no more military have been built.)
Paranoia +1: GingerEagle has likely teched the Wheel as a perfectly sensible pre-requisite to Financial Cottages. But the Wheel also greatly increases the potential military threat - they now have all the required tech to Phalanx rush. Temporary -1 for lack of Slavery.
When are we due GingerEagle's graphs? And can you confirm GingerEagle's earlier Agriculture in the same way as the Wheel?
GingerEagle's lack of Slavery is curious, given 4 happy-capped population. I'd wager they plan a Settler out about now, revolting while moving it, and 2-pop whipping a Worker shortly after. Thus earning T-Hawk's micro "gold star" for anarchy on the move, and still getting the benefit of a big whip at size 4. Added: Beware of that big whip going into a 'Henge, alongside a pair of chops, completing almost imediately. Serious risk if GingerEagle techs Mysticism next.
Looks like our Warrior is standing on GingerEagle's eastern choke city. Fortunately that fits pretty well with the B2 location: There's no compelling reason for GingerEagle to settle any further east, and (with no Flood Plains or metals) that site is unlikely to be GingerEagle's second city.
GingerEagle's ded-lurk is Nicolae Carpathia, who is strongly inclined to build up a nice economy and fight later. On this map I can't see them resisting the charm of all the early food and commerce. How much influence Nicolae Carpathia has is unclear, but it's a minor point against early Greek aggression.
Commodore: I presume no news is good news. From the demos it looks like Commodore got their Deer online (11 Food and 3 Hammers), but hasn't grown, nor obviously finished a Warrior. (It would be just about possible that someone lost a Warrigor while Commodore built one, since Commodore is no longer the power leader.) So I suspect they half-built a Warrior, and have now switched back to a Settler or Worker. We have been dead last in power since turn 16, so Commodore should know that we only have 2 Warriors, and aren't going to be rushing them from the fog. Commodore's tech rate isn't great right now, but they've not scored a tech in 5 turns, so could be going for early Pottery or Animal Husbandry.
Pindicator is ded-lurking Commodore, who is very good at fine-tuning individual builds, which Commodore perhaps doesn't have the patience for. Fair assessment?
Dazed still hasn't teched Bronze Working on turn 21! It's been 8 turns since their last tech, and they'd get multiple neighbor bonuses on Bronze Working. They certainly met Kyan, and since we haven't seen GingerEagle's Scout, they likely met GingerEagle too. So either there's a lot of knee-jerk tech switching going on, or their tech rate sucks... for some reason . Their failed rush has at least offset any expansion bonus Dazed might have had with Imperial.
timski Wrote:I'll detail "the plan" later today. At this point I have little doubt that the your Settler-Worker-'Henge gambit, with Agriculture after Wheel, is the strongest play, so please proceed on that basis, at least until you get a chance to sim.
-Sweet!
-Archery is worth 3k, so breaks the even/odd pop pattern in power points. No one has archery yet, right?
-GE graphs in 9 turns
-I can't confirm agri for GE because 6% bonus isn't enough to increment my gnp yet. Wheel has 2 known neighbors, so 12% and it showed up. We *know* GE has agri unless he's got like double fish or something game breaking.
-Your plan for a GE dbl whip sounds optimal for me... don't tell him, yo. Nicolea is a solid player, I expect he'll be advising same.
-Agreed about GE choke city. What's up with both neighbots getting beautifully slotted hillsoverlooking my choke?
-Commodore has not built a warrior in his capital. He has only 1, right? He swapped back to (presumably) fish/deer this turn so I expect he's back on his settler. Agreed about Pindicator.
-Tech rates should all be similar. Small boosts from working lake 2/0/2 tile are about the only variation. If techs aren't showing up it means ppl are working more expensive techs or swapping.
-Dazed without Bronze... so odd.
-I did sim a little last night, ended up with the screenshotted spreadsheet posted previously. I'm stoked to try yours in full today.
Ceiliazul Wrote:Archery is worth 3k, so breaks the even/odd pop pattern in power points. No one has archery yet, right?
Kyan might have Archery (turn 18 tech), but then they're also the only player for whom a Barracks build might have been logical. Commodore has no Barracks (you could see it), and is Dazed really going to be building a Barracks now, when their moment of (failed) military glory is already past? It's important to clarify that the maths isn't as simple as someone other than GingerEagle building a 3,000-point Archer or Barracks. GingerEagle was at 18, wheel +4 to 22, so GingerEagle would have had to have lost a Warrior (-2 to 20), Kyan builds a 3-point (from 19 to 22), still leaving us 1 adrift from the average (with no population growth, only -2 for another dead Warrior and +3 for a Barracks). I find such a sequence unlikely.
Added: Having filled in the power data gaps, I don't see how Kyan could have teched Archery on turn 18, even if battles were raging: It's a 6,000 power jump. One of Kyan or Dazed built both a warrior on turn 17, and got another 2,000 soldier points the following turn. The same player did both, since one still remains at the 15,000 minimum. Kyan only could have got 2 Warriors out in 2 turns with Slavery. But we should see their city decline in size, shouldn't we? So Kyan must have scored a military tech on turn 18, of which only Animal Husbandry and Sailing remain (for 2,000 points). I think Kyan teched Animal Husbandry in 3 turns by investing some Beakers before Bronze. Note that Kyan takes 2 turns longer than Commodore to tech Bronze Working, for no obvious reason. So if Kyan was cunning, they would have seen Commodore's opening Mining, supposed that Commodore was heading to Bronze next, and delayed their own Bronze a few turns to get the neighbor bonus. Or maybe they just couldn't decide between a Chariot rush and an Axe rush... the only other way I can work this is by Kyan having teched Wheel on turn 18, while simultaneously losing a Warrior. But if anyone's going to be losing Warriors, it should be Dazed. And if Kyan was down to one Warrior, another Warrior build would seem prudent, given Daze's potential hostility.
In summary, the revised C&D is probably:
Kyan - Warrior on turn 17, Animal Husbandry on turn 18, nothing since.
Dazed - no military builds or tech completed since turn 13.
GingerEagle - the other Warrior on turn 17, Wheel on turn 20.
Kyan gets the 2 Warriors in their capital they would need to deflect Dazed, while their tech remains on a logical military path. No carnage, since Dazed can't beat 2 aggressive Warriors. But Dazed is in a mess, with 3 Warriors somewhere, no economy, and no clear sense of what to tech next. Everything fits.
(Daze's economy has improved over the last few turns - very likely they have Fish and Deer online now, since rival worst food is up to 11.)
Quote:Your plan for a GE dbl whip sounds optimal for me... don't tell him, yo. Nicolea is a solid player, I expect he'll be advising same.
Just watch that the big whip doesn't go into Stonehenge. We presumably have a fall-back that involves whipping the last few hammers of the 'Henge after whipping the Settler, but that's about as far from ideal as I can imagine. While we can survive without the free Monuments (only the second city really needs one to get going), 'Henge fail gold this early would make me cry. I hope we won't be faced with that decision, but GingerEagle is still in contention. Added: This fall-back completes the 'Henge EOT 28 at the earliest. Potentially end of turn 26, if we also chopped the final forest at the capital. But by that stage, our subsequent plans would be in tatters. I think we're still safe by virtue of the Wheel: Pottery is totally logical next for GingerEagle, and if so, Cottages and Granaries would surely trump a rush at the 'Henge.
(Oh, and if Commodore also goes for Pottery early, we should save some Beaker there to.)
Quote:Agreed about GE choke city. What's up with both neighbots getting beautifully slotted hillsoverlooking my choke?
Commodore's choke city is a mixed blessing: Likely their only Flood Plains are precisely where Cottages would be most at risk to pillaging. Contrast to our Flood Plains, which are about as safe as anything is on this map. GingerEagle may better control of the choke, but our B2 city has more food, serves as a port, and doesn't have multiple mountains in the fat cross.
Quote:Commodore has not built a warrior in his capital. He has only 1, right?
Correct (since we know they teched Hunting by virtue of the improved Deer, there is no other Warrior completed). If they have a turn's warning of attack, and no need of a garrison for happiness, a half-built Warrior would work fine. At least until they start moving their Settler and Worker about.
Lastly (for now!) a cultural note on GingerEagle's naming scheme: Crystal Palace is the south London football ground where Crystal Palace Football Club, commonly called "the Eagles", play. GingerEagle's spoiler thread is titled "an Ode to the Eagles".
Below is what I consider pretty close to an optimum expansion plan. I saved another few turns off the Library builds, with some quite complex overflow management and heavy whipping in the first 2 cities (to make the best us of our happiness bonus). I'm sure the overflow tricks can be improved, because I know I wasted a few hammers. Those Libraries should snowball into even faster tech and even faster subsequent expansion. However, I should stress that the new complexity isn't critical to the general expansion/build - the plan is still flexible enough to react to changing circumstances between turns 30 and 50.
Image below is on turn 51, the latest turn Iron Working should come in. The unworked grass Cottages around Duck Hunt could be replaced by some alternative improvements - the result of slack Worker capability pre-Iron Working. The Capital, Duck Hunt (ex "A") and Contra (ex "D1") all have Granaries. The Capital and Duck Hunt both have long-established Libraries. The capital is even working a Scientist already, with a second added 2 turns later. Gems and Pig improvements are both double-staffed for speed. Units: 5 Workers, 2 warriors, Scout, 3 Axemen, Spearman.
Turn numbers are as played on the sim. So for end of turn builds and tech, subtract 1. Full detail below.
Warning: Out-dated micro - see 17th February Plan in next post.
20:
Capital grows to size 3. Capital switches production to Settler. Working Deer, Fish and Rice.
Worker #1 chops forest 1NE of capital.
21:
Forest chop 2N of capital in Settler.
22:
Wheel researched. Tech Agriculture.
Forest chop 1NE of capital into Settler.
Worker #2 moves 1SE and roads 1NE of capital. Move after the chop!
23:
Worker #1 moves 1NW onto the Copper and roads for 1 turn only.
Capital's Settler #2 whipped (on final turn). Capital at size 2.
24:
Worker #2 moves 1NW onto the Copper and completes the road.
Worker #1 moves 1NW onto southern Flood Plains and roads for 1 turn only. Worker order is critical.
Settler #2 moves front the capital to 1E of the Copper. Capital continues building Stonehenge, working Deer and Fish.
25:
Capital's borders expand to third ring.
Worker #1 moves back onto the Copper and mines.
Worker #2 also mines the Copper (separate orders).
Settler #2 founds Duck Hunt 1E of Copper.
Duck Hunt builds a Warrior. Working Flood Plains.
Research rate drops to 90%. (I'm not using binary research in the sim, since tech time are approximate anyway, due to unknown neighbor bonuses.)
26:
Agriculture completes. Tech Pottery.
Copper Mine completes and Copper is now available in both cities.
Worker #2 moves 1SE, onto the forests 1S of Duck Hunt.
Duck Hunt works the Copper mine.
27:
Capital grows to size 3. Switch production to a Worker. Working Fish, Deer and Rice.
Duck Hunt's production automatically converts to a Spearman.
Worker #1 move onto the forest 1NE of Duck Hunt.
Worker #2 chops the forest 1S of Duck Hunt.
28:
Worker #1 chops forest 1NE of Duck Hunt.
29:
Capital's Worker #3 whipped (2 turns till completion).
Forest chop 1S of Duck Hunt into Spearman (overflowing).
30:
Pottery completes (must happen by this turn). Tech Animal Husbandry.
Duck Hunt's Spearman completes. Build Granary.
Capital's Worker #3 coompletes. Capital continues building Stonehenge, working Deer and Fish.
Worker #1 moves 1NE, and roads 1E of Duck Hunt, for 1 turn only (assumes no hill 1E of Duck Hunt).
Forest chop 1NE of Duck Hunt into Granary.
Worker #3 moves to Forest Plains Hills WNW of capital.
31:
Stonehenge completes. Build Granary in capital.
Worker #3 Mines (and automatically also chops) Forest Plains Hills WNW of capital.
Worker #1 moves 1NW and Cottages the southern Flood Plains, 1N of Duck Hunt.
Worker #2 moves 1W and also Cottages 1N of Duck Hunt.
32:
Duck Hunt completes Granary. Build Scout.
Capital grows to size 3. Working Fish, Deer and Rice (tiles critical).
Cottage 1N of Duck Hunt completes. Duck Huntn works this Flood Plains Cottage.
33:
Worker #2 completes the road 1N of Duck Hunt.
Worker #1 moves (via roads) onto the Rice WNW of Duck Hunt, and Farms (road must be completed first).
34:
Animal Husbandry should complete now on live. Timing is not critical, and the sim assumes turn 35. Tech Archery.
Also worth saving the sim here, to try out alternative Duck Hunt city managements and builds.
Capital 2-pop whips Granary. Capital back to size 2, working Fish and Deer.
Duck Hunt grows to size 2. Scout is whipped. Duck Hunt working Flood Plains Cottage.
Worker #2 joins Worker #1, farming the Rice WNW of Duck Hunt.
35:
Capital completes Granary. Build Worker.
Chop (via Mine) WNW of capital, into Worker.
Duck Hunt completes Scout. Build Axeman.
Rice Farm WNW of Duck Hunt complete. Duck Hunt works this Rice immediately.
Worker #2 moves 2SE (to 1S of Duck Hunt), heading for the Cows. Duck Hunt's Spear may need to cover Worker #2.
36:
Duck Hunt grows to size 2. Duck Hunt works Copper and Cottage.
Worker #1 moves 1NE (NNE of Duck Hunt) and roads for 1 turn only.
Worker #2 moves 1SE and Pastures the Cow SSE of Duck Hunt.
Worker #3 moves 1NE and farms the Rice NNE of the Capital.
37:
Archery may complete now on live. Timing is not critical, and the sim assumes turn 38. Tech Writing.
Capital's Worker #4 completes. Build Axeman. Capital working Fish and Deer.
Worker #4 moves 3NW, to 1N of Duck Hunt.
Worker #1 moves 1W onto the northern Flood Plains (2N of Duck Hunt) and Cottages.
38:
Duck Hunt completes Axe #1. Builds another Axe. Duck Hunt works Rice and (newly Pastured) Cow.
Capital grows to size 3. WOrking Fish, Deer and Plains Hill Mine.
Worker #4 moves 1N (2N of Duck Hunt), and also Cottages the nortthern Flood Plains.
39:
Duck Hunt grows to size 3. Working Cow and both Flood Plains Cottage (the second newly completed).
Capital works Fish, Deer and (newly improved) Rice.
Worker #2 moves up from the Cows to the forest 2E of Duck Hunt.
Worker #4 moves ESE to the forest ENE of Duck Hunt.
40:
At this point there are 2 distinct variations for the capital: (1) Whip the Axe now in a Settler, 2-pop whip the Settler out for turn 43, overflow into a Library, Library 2-pop whipped to complete turn 46, and Worker #5 on turn 49 (no immediate option to work Silver for research if 2-pop whipping the Library), capital at size 3 at end. Or (2) Do not whip the Axe, grow to size 6, 2-pop whip the Settler out for turn 44, overflow into a Library, Library 2-pop whipped to complete turn 48, overflow into Worker #5 out on turn 50 (including option to work silver to aid research), capital at size 4. I've opted for variation (1). This stacks 3 sets of whip anger, although never into unhappiness. If the capital is biased more towards Scientists afterwards, this whip anger has time to cool off. There are variations that whip slightly less, and delay the Library slightly more, if this much whip anger is problematic.
Capital grows to size 4. Whip Axe (on final turn). Working Deer, Fish, Rice.
Worker 1 moves 1W and completes the road NNW of Duck Hunt.
Worker 4 chops forest ENE of Duck Hunt. Read the turn 42 caution first - it may be safer to control these chops one turn at a time.
Worker 2 chops forest 2E of Duck Hunt.
Worker 3 moves 1SE and puts 1 turn only into a Farm 1N of the capital. (Plenty of options here - partial road or Cottage instead of Farm, or move 1S and start improving 1NW of the Capital. Farm is assumed for future Rice irrigation with no riverside Cottage options lost.)
41:
Capital grows to size 4, and completes Axe #2. Build Settler. Working Deer, Fish, Rice and Plains Hill Mine.
Duck Hunt grows to size 4. Working 2 Flood Plains Cottages, Cow and Copper.
Worker #1 moves 3SE, onto the hill ESE of Duck Hunt (assumes no hill 1E of Duck Hunt).
Worker #3 moves 2SW onto the Silver.
42:
Writing completes. It must complete this turn, and will do by now in the live game, but may be a few Beakers short in the sim. Tech Iron Working.
Capital 2-pop whips Settler. Now working Fish and Deer.
Duck Hunt whips their Axe. Now working 2 Cottages and Cow.
Switch Duck Hunt's production to a Library. Caution: This switch must be done before the chops come in, else hammers will be lost!
Worker 1 roads the hill ESE of Duck Hunt.
Worker 3 mines the Capital's Silver.
2 chops into the Library at Duck Hunt. The "completed" Axe remains in the queue after the Library.
43
Duck Hunt grows to size 4. 2-pop whip the Library to completion. Now working both Cottages. (This is why we micro the prior whip and chops so precisely!)
Capital complete's Settler #3. Build Library.
Settler #3 moves to 1S of Duck Hunt.
Worker #4 moves 1W and Cottages 1NE of Duck Hunt.
Worker #2 moves 1SW and Cottages 1SE of Duck Hunt.
44:
Duck Hunt completes Library. Builds Axe (which was already "complete"). Still working both Flood Plains Cottages.
Capital grows to size 3. Working Deer, Fish and Rice.
Worker 1 moves 1NW and completes the road 1E of Duck Hunt.
Settler #3 moves to the D1 site (Worker 1's road must be completed first).
45:
Duck Hunt completes the Axe while growing to size 3. Build a Settler. Work 2 Flood Plains COttages and Copper. Duck Hunt is now happy-capped at 6/6 without a garrison, due to stacked whip anger.
The Axe/Library gambit at Duck Hunt currently loses 6 or 7 hammers in the final overflow, since the Axe overflow is capped at 23, so it is worth trying to optimise the tiles building up to the Axe whip - we just need to ensure that the Library can be 2-pop whipped.
Capital grows to size 4. 2-pop whip the Library. Working Fish and Deer again.
Worker #2 moves WNW to the hill 1NW of Duck Hunt.
Settler #3 founds Contra on the D1 site. Contra builds a Granary, working the plains Cow 2W (already improved). Research rate drops to 80%.
46:
Capital grows to size 3 and completes Library. Build Worker. Working Fish, Deer and Rice. Capital is now happy-capped at 7/7 if without a garrison, due to stacked whip anger. Note that both cities probably should have a defender nearby, but we retain the flexibility to move these units around the field.
Worker #1 roads 1NW of Duck Hunt.
Worker #2 moves 1W and Cottages 1S of Duck Hunt.
Worker #4 moves 1E and Cottages ENE of Duck Hunt. Note that I'm assuming Cottages, but there's some flexibility on improvements if we want Duck Hunt to be able to grow faster first. We might also have Horses to Pasture. These Cottages won't be worked for at least another 10 turns - we're getting them down now, so that our Workers are free to clear jungle once Iron Working techs.
Worker #3 roads the capital's Silver.
47:
Nothing to do...!
48:
Duck Hunt whips their Settler. Not whipping is an option, but gets B2 founded a turn later. Working both Flood Plains Cottages.
Worker #1 moves NNW and roads 1SE of the B2 location.
Worker #3 moves 1NE, and roads 1W of the Capital.
49:
Capital completes Worker #5. Assuming an Archer build while growing, but that's clearly flexible at this point. Still working Fish, Deer and Rice.
Duck Hunt completes Settler #4. Again, assuming an Archer build while growing. Still working both Flood Plains Cottages.
Settler #4 moves to the B2 site (wait for the road to complete first).
Worker #2 moves 3 tiles towards B2's Cow (finishing in the desert).
Worker #4 moves 1SE onto the Cow 2N of Contra, and roads for 1 turn only.
Worker #5 moves 3NE towards the Gems (finishing on the Flood Plains 1N of Duck Hunt).
Silver is connected and available to all cities.
50:
Capital grows to size 4. Work Fish, Deer, Rice and inland water (to grow immediately to size 5).
Contra grows to size 2. Whip Granary. Still working the plains Cow.
Settler #4 founds B2. Builds Granary. Working Cow. Tech rate is now just below 70% average.
Worker #1 moves 1W and Pastures the Cow 1S of B2.
Worker #2 moves 1NW and also Pasture's the Cow 1S of B2.
Worker #4 Pastures the Cow 2N of Contra.
Worker #3 moves 3 tiles along the road towards the Gems (finishing on the Copper).
51:
Iron Working completes. Again, may be earlier in the live game. Next tech very open to discussion.
Contra completes Granary. Builds Library (unless we urgently need a Work Boat scout first).
Capital grows to size 5. Working Fish, Deer, Rice, Silver and scientist. Silver can be switched for a second Scientist if we prefer an earlier Great Person.
Worker #5 Mines the Gems NNE of Duck Hunt.
Worker #3 moves 2NE onto the Gems to assist next turn.
Worker #2 moves onto the Pigs 1W of B2, to Pasture next turn, assisted once again by Worker #1.
Brief highlights thereafter:
Contra's northern grass Cows is pastured T52, allowing the city to grow to size to by T54. The same Cows are roaded the following turn, allowing the capital to not grow into unhealthiness. After roading those Cows, Worker #4 has the option of chopping out the remainder of Contra's Library (forest 1SW of Contra).
The capital reaches size 6 on T53, while finishings its Archer. That allows it to slow-build Worker #6 while running 2 Scientist and Silver, or build Worker #6 faster, but with less tech.
Duck Hunt takes longer to grow, but get's there in the end: Size 5 by T54, while also producing an Archer. Duck Hunt's Gems are also mined and connected on T54. At that point Duck Hunt can run a Scientist, while still growing at a reasonable rate, pending more health resources being roaded (the Rice ENE of Contra is probably the easiest, since Rice gives +2 health with Rice.
B2 get's its Pigs Pastured on T55, only one turn after growing to size 2 - not every micro is perfect!
Quick After-Thoughts...
The Axe/Library gambit in Duck Hunt almost works fine with 1 chop, not two. From memory we'd need something like 3 extra hammers into the Library, since on the existing plan the Library build overflows by 10 hammers, before considering the Axe. May be as simple as swapping a Cottage for the Copper on the turn the Library chop comes in - only challenge would be getting enough food to regrow in 2 turns. The second chop could then be used directly on Settler #4, with no lose of hammers, more flexibility should we suddenly need to change build, and probably no need to whip that Settler at all, which gets Duck Hunt growing again faster thereafter, with no delay in founding B2.
The sim techs are likely to be increasingly inaccurate. I forgot to mention that if we reach Iron Working 4-5 turns earlier (just after turn 45), then Workers that currently fill slack time with unused Cottages can instead be deployed onto the Gems. Another option, as I think you've already considered, is a diversion into religion.
I fixed the Axe/Library gambit. This is beautiful, if I say so myself. I'll list the changes around Duck Hunt in detail here, and repost the full revised micro below:
T39 and T40: Duck Hunt works Flood Plains Cottage, Rice and Cow. Worker #2 adds a Cottage 1SE (or 1S? 1SE is shared with Contra, so more flexible) of Duck Hunt (rather than chopping).
T41: Duck Hunt works 2 Flood Plains Cottages, Rice and Cow.
T42: Whip Axe (36/23H). Switch to Library immediately, with chop into Library. Work a Flood Plains Cottage, Rice, Copper, and Cow. Worker #2 moves onto the remaining forest 2E of Duck Hunt.
T43: Duck Hunt 2-pop whips the Library (62/60H). Worker #2 chops forest 2E of Duck Hunt. Works Rice and Flood Plains Cottage.
T44: Duck Hunt completes Library. Builds "completed" Axe (36+4/23H). Works Rice and 2 Flood Plains Cottages.
T45: Duck Hunt completes Axe. Builds Settler (with 17 oveflow). Working 2 Flood Plains Cottages, Copper and Rice. Final chop into Settler.
T48: Duck Hunt's Settler #4 completes (without whip). Founds B2 T49 (one turn earlier), while leaving Duck Hunt at size 4 (rather than 3).
This Axe/Library gambit seems odds at first, but one needs to look carefully at what's going on to see the benefits:
1. We whip 3 population away in 2 turns, without ever technically dry whipping.
2. Simultaneous, while whipping away 3 population we grow them all back again.
3. The net overflow from all this whipping goes into a Settler. If we whipped into the Settler itself, we wouldn't be able to grow back, since the Settler build blocks growth.
The basic technique of switching queue order around whips is more common when switching civics (for example, whipping some military, then switching civics, such that the units complete in war civics). But the technique is surprisingly powerful when optimising Settler/Worker builds too.
Added:
17th February Plan below.
No changes prior to T39, and no changes at all at the Capital. I've corrected some East-West errors in the instructions. As noted above, B2 is founded a turn earlier. I've redone the closing Worker moves (so we aren't drowning in unused Cottages around Duck Hunt, but there's still scope to tidy that up even more), and sped up the production of Worker #6, so we have 6 Workers on turn 52, with Duck Hunt still at a respectable population 4. That closing production can be tweaked depending on the military threat, but I wanted to demonstrate a faster Worker was possible. 6 Workers for 4 cities isn't so bad, since 3 of those cities coastal.
20:
Capital grows to size 3. Capital switches production to Settler. Working Deer, Fish and Rice.
Worker #1 chops forest 1NE of capital.
21:
Forest chop 2N of capital in Settler.
22:
Wheel researched. Tech Agriculture.
Forest chop 1NE of capital into Settler.
Worker #2 moves 1SE and roads 1NE of capital. Move after the chop!
23:
Worker #1 moves 1NE onto the Copper and roads for 1 turn only.
Capital's Settler #2 whipped (on final turn). Capital at size 2.
24:
Worker #2 moves 1NE onto the Copper and completes the road.
Worker #1 moves 1NE onto southern Flood Plains and roads for 1 turn only. Worker order is critical.
Settler #2 moves from the capital to 1E of the Copper. Capital continues building Stonehenge, working Deer and Fish.
25:
Capital's borders expand to third ring.
Worker #1 moves back onto the Copper and mines.
Worker #2 also mines the Copper (separate orders).
Settler #2 founds Duck Hunt 1E of Copper.
Duck Hunt builds a Warrior. Working Flood Plains.
Research rate drops to 90%. (I'm not using binary research in the sim, since tech time are approximate anyway, due to unknown neighbor bonuses.)
26:
Agriculture completes. Tech Pottery.
Copper Mine completes and Copper is now available in both cities.
Duck Hunt works the Copper mine.
Worker #2 moves 1SE, onto the forest 1S of Duck Hunt.
27:
Capital grows to size 3. Switch production to a Worker. Working Fish, Deer and Rice.
Duck Hunt's production automatically converts to a Spearman.
Worker #1 move onto the forest 1NE of Duck Hunt.
Worker #2 chops the forest 1S of Duck Hunt.
28:
Worker #1 chops forest 1NE of Duck Hunt.
29:
Capital's Worker #3 whipped (2 turns till completion). Working Fish and Deer.
Forest chop 1S of Duck Hunt into Spearman (overflowing).
30:
Pottery completes (must happen by this turn). Tech Animal Husbandry.
Duck Hunt's Spearman completes. Build Granary.
Capital's Worker #3 completes. Capital continues building Stonehenge, working Deer and Fish.
Forest chop 1NE of Duck Hunt into Granary.
Worker #1 moves 1NE, and roads 1E of Duck Hunt, for 1 turn only (assumes no hill 1E of Duck Hunt).
Worker #3 moves to Forest Plains Hills WNW of capital.
31:
Stonehenge completes. Build Granary in capital.
Worker #3 Mines (and automatically also chops) Forest Plains Hills WNW of capital.
Worker #1 moves 1NW and Cottages the southern Flood Plains, 1N of Duck Hunt.
Worker #2 moves 1W and also Cottages 1N of Duck Hunt.
Capital grows to size 3. Working Fish, Deer and Rice.
33:
Worker #2 completes the road 1N of Duck Hunt.
Worker #1 moves (via Copper tile) onto the Rice WNW of Duck Hunt, and Farms (road must be completed first).
34:
Animal Husbandry should complete now on live (timing is not critical). Tech Archery.
Capital grows to size 4. 2-pop whips Granary. Working Fish and Deer.
Duck Hunt grows to size 2. Scout is whipped. Duck Hunt working Flood Plains Cottage.
Worker #2 joins Worker #1, farming the Rice WNW of Duck Hunt.
35:
Capital completes Granary. Build Worker.
Duck Hunt completes Scout. Build Axeman. Duck Hunt works (newly completed) Rice. Duck Hunt's border's expand to second ring.
Chop (via Mine) into Capital's Worker.
Worker #2 moves 2SE (to 1S of Duck Hunt), heading for the Cows. Duck Hunt's Spear may need to cover Worker #2.
36:
Duck Hunt grows to size 2. Duck Hunt works Copper and Cottage. (Working the Copper here, rather than food and rapid whips, to maintain happiness for the Axe/Library gambit later. If under threat, more military can potentially be produced faster by focusing on growth/whips instead.)
Worker #1 moves 1NE (NNE of Duck Hunt) and roads for 1 turn only.
Worker #2 moves 1SE and Pastures the Cow SSE of Duck Hunt.
Worker #3 moves 1NE and Farms the Rice NNE of the Capital.
37:
Archery may complete now on live (timing is not critical). Tech Writing.
Capital's Worker #4 completes. Build Axeman. Capital working Fish and Deer.
Worker #4 moves 3NE, to 1N of Duck Hunt.
Worker #1 moves 1E onto the northern Flood Plains (2N of Duck Hunt) and Cottages.
38:
Duck Hunt completes Axe #1. Builds another Axe. Duck Hunt works Rice and (newly Pastured) Cow. (Caution: Duck Hunt's tile management is very precise over the next few turns, with constant changes.)
Capital grows to size 3. Working Fish, Deer and Plains Hill Mine.
Worker #4 moves 1N (2N of Duck Hunt), and also Cottages the nortthern Flood Plains.
39:
Duck Hunt grows to size 3. Working Cow, Rice and a Flood Plains Cottage.
Capital works Fish, Deer and (newly improved) Rice.
Worker #2 moves 1N from the Cows and Cottages 1SE of Duck Hunt.
Worker #4 moves ESE to the forest ENE of Duck Hunt.
40:
Capital grows to size 4. Whip Axe (on final turn). Working Deer, Fish, Rice.
Worker #1 moves 1W and completes the road NNW of Duck Hunt.
Worker #4 chops forest ENE of Duck Hunt. Caution: Safer to control these chops one turn at a time (see T42).
Worker #3 moves 1SE and puts 1 turn only into a Farm 1N of the capital. (Plenty of options here - partial road or Cottage instead of Farm, or move 1S and start improving 1NW of the Capital. Farm is assumed for future Rice irrigation with no riverside Cottage options lost.)
41:
Capital grows to size 4, and completes Axe #2. Build Settler. Working Deer, Fish, Rice and Plains Hill Mine.
Duck Hunt grows to size 4. Working 2 Flood Plains Cottages, Cow and Rice.
Worker #1 moves 3SE, onto the hill ESE of Duck Hunt (assumes no hill 1E of Duck Hunt).
Worker #3 moves 2SW onto the Silver.
42:
Writing completes (timing is critical). Tech Iron Working. (Possible option to delay Iron Working for a religion and still probably get the religion founded in Duck Hunt. Alternatively, with faster Iron Working, some of the Worker slack around Duck Hunt in 3-4 turns can be used to Mine Duck Hunt's Gems sooner.)
Capital 2-pop whips Settler. Now working Fish and Deer.
Duck Hunt grows to size 5, and whips their Axe (36/23H). Working Cottage, Copper, Rice and Cow.
Switch Duck Hunt's production to a Library. (Caution: This switch must be done before the chops come in, else trees will be pulped!)
Worker #1 roads the hill ESE of Duck Hunt.
Worker #2 moves onto the forest 2E of Duck Hunt.
Worker #3 mines the Capital's Silver.
Chop into Duck Hunt's Library. (The "completed" Axe remains in the queue after the Library.)
43
Capital completes Settler #3. Build Library.
Duck Hunt grows to size 4. 2-pop whip the Library (62/60H). Working Rice and a Flood Plains Cottage.
Settler #3 moves to 1S of Duck Hunt.
Worker #4 moves 1W and Cottages 1NE of Duck Hunt (Worker #4 has the flexibility to start Mining Gems if Iron Working is done by T44).
Worker #2 chops forest 2E of Duck Hunt.
44:
Duck Hunt completes Library. Builds Axe (which was already "complete", 36+4/23H). Working Rice, Cow and a Flood Plains Cottage.
Capital grows to size 3. Working Deer, Fish and Rice.
Worker #1 moves 1NW and completes the road 1E of Duck Hunt.
Settler #3 moves to the D1 site (Worker 1's road must be completed first).
45:
Duck Hunt finally completes Axeman, while growing to size 4. Build a Settler (17 overflow). Work 2 Flood Plains Cottages, Rice and Copper. Duck Hunt must be garrisoned to avoid unhappiness! The Capital does not yet need a garrison for happiness, so we should be able to utilise at least one Warrior to garrison Duck Hunt. Duck Hunt is also health-capped. Chop into the Settler.
Capital grows to size 4. 2-pop whip the Library. Working Fish and Deer again.
Worker #2 moves WNW to the hill 1NW of Duck Hunt.
Settler #3 founds Contra on the D1 site. Contra builds a Granary, working the plains Cow 2W (already improved). Research rate drops to 80%.
46:
Capital grows to size 3 and completes Library. Build Worker. Working Fish, Deer and Rice. Capital is now happy-capped at 7/7 if without a garrison. (Or we retain the flexibility to move any Capital garrison around the field.)
Worker #1 roads 1NW of Duck Hunt.
Worker #2 moves 1SE and Cottages 1N of Contra.
Worker #4 moves WNW onto the grass NNW of Duck Hunt, and Farms for 2 turns. (Farm is assumed here, since Duck Hunt could benefit from growing on food a little later. The tile later irrigates the Rice. Ultimately this Farm could be swapped for a Cottage, and the Rice Irrigated from the southern lakes, without losing riverside.)
Worker #3 roads the Capital's Silver.
47:
Admire the view...
48:
Duck Hunt completes Settler #4 (no whip). Builds Worker. (Option of Archer, but watch the health cap.) Still working 2 Flood Plains Cottages, Rice and Copper.
Worker #4 moves 1NW and roads 1SE of B2 location.
Worker #1 also moves NNW and roads 1SE of the B2 location.
Worker #3 moves 1NE, and roads 1W of the Capital.
Settler #4 moves to B2 site (wait for roads first).
49:
Capital completes Worker #5. Assuming an Archer build while growing, but that's clearly flexible at this point. Still working Fish, Deer and Rice.
Settler #4 founds B2. Builds Granary. Working Cow. Tech rate is now just below 70% average.
Worker #1 moves 1W and Pastures the Cow 1S of B2.
Worker #4 also moves 1W and Pasture's the Cow 1S of B2 (separate orders).
Worker #2 moves 1N onto the Cow 2N of Contra, and roads for 1 turn only.
Worker #5 moves 3NE towards the Gems (finishing on the Flood Plains 1N of Duck Hunt).
Silver is connected and available to all cities.
50:
Capital grows to size 4. Work Fish, Deer, Rice and inland water (to grow immediately to size 5).
Contra grows to size 2 and expands borders to the second ring. Whip Granary. Still working the Plains Cow.
Worker #4 Pastures the Cow 2N of Contra.
Worker #5 moves 1NE onto the Gems.
Worker #3 moves 3 tiles along the road towards the Gems (finishing on the Copper).
Worker #4 moves 1NW onto the Pigs 1W of B2.
51:
Iron Working must have completed by now. Next tech very open to discussion.
Contra completes Granary. Builds Library (unless we urgently need a Work Boat scout first).
Capital grows to size 5. Working Fish, Deer, Rice, Silver and scientist. Silver can be switched for a second Scientist if we prefer an earlier Great Person.
Worker #5 Mines the Gems NNE of Duck Hunt.
Worker #3 moves 2NE onto the Gems to assist next turn.
Worker #4 Pastures the Pig 1W of B2.
Worker #1 moves 1NW onto the Pig 1W of B2, to assist next turn.
Brief highlights thereafter:
Contra's northern grass Cows is pastured T52, allowing the city to grow to size to by T54. The same Cows are roaded the following turn, allowing the capital to not grow into unhealthiness. After roading those Cows, Worker #4 has the option of chopping out the remainder of Contra's Library (forest 1SW of Contra).
The capital reaches size 6 on T53, while finishings its Archer. That allows it to slow-build Worker #6 while running 2 Scientist and Silver, or build Worker #6 faster, but with less tech.
Duck Hunt completes Worker #6 on T52, then grows on an Archer. Duck Hunt's Gems are also mined and connected on T54. At that point Duck Hunt can run a Scientist, while still growing at a reasonable rate, pending more health resources being roaded: The Rice ENE of Contra is probably the easiest, since Rice gives +2 health with Granaries.
B2 gets its Pigs Pastured on T54, only one turn after growing to size 2. To never work an unimproved tile, even for 1 turn, 3 Workers would need to Pasture the Cow on T49, which would mean slower improvements around Contra. That may be viable, since there's still too much early Cottage spam.
timski Wrote:Below is what I consider pretty close to an optimum expansion plan.
This plan looks really really good! The critical next 10 turns are neigh on perfect, with a couple notes:
Around t26, after roading the copper, one worker puts a partial road on FP before chopping the forest NE of Duck. If that worker finishes the road before chopping, the other worker (after chopping S of Duck) can go straight to starting the cottage. It's a 1 worker turn (1wt) savings, and gets cow online sooner. Bonus, when we need the roads later we can go SE of Duck, (instead of E,) for better speed to the choke, and more efficient hookup of cow.
A bigger opportunity is reducing whip losses. If you overflow more hammers than the cost of the build itself, the hammers are gone in the ether. Example from your sim: whip scout at 3/10 makes it 23/10 but it can only overflow 10h into the next build. The last 3h are gone poof. Another example, I think you whipped a 22/23 axeman ~t39, the 7h of natural production made it 49/23, a loss of 3h. (Note, the excess hammers used to convert to gold, but this seems no longer the case.)
These are tiny in the scheme of things, your plan is excellent in general. I especially like the built-in (and clearly noted) flex points... those are essential for us to respond to opponent moves without having to scrap the plan.
Ideas:
Duck Hunt is slated to build: spear-Gran-scout-axe... I'm sure we can shave 1t off the granary (and possibly reduce whip losses) by leaving the spear in the queue and finishing the scout first. After the granary we whip the spear (instead of the scout) to prevent waste. This depends on the urgency of the spear, but could save us a bit of food in granary filling, and get an extra ~5t out of that scout. The sooner we can scout the coast, the sooner we can be certain about the planned city locations. As a bonus, we can start the scout while the copper is not connected (instead of warrior) and enable us to choose axe/spr as needed.
Also, my gut feeling for worker4 was mining the silver and roading back to base... perhaps the worker turn we saved further up could allow the 2nd cottage to finish on time, and free up w4 for silver duty? The benefit of earlier silver is in more flexible teching if we need a boost.
I subscribe to "the first casualty of war is the plan", and plan accordingly: As time goes on, the plan gets more flexible, with more contigencies built in. Easier when one isn't aiming for Wonders, which tend to lock down moves for far too long in advance.
In summary, before playing anything: Love the early Flood Plains road. Not as simple as an earlier Cow, but certainly adds options. Both chops going into the Granary rather than one into a unit overflow likely opens up options for a Scout first. Worker #4 on the Silver still doesn't come soon enough to allow us to whip any more heavily in the critical early-40s period, or save anything on the most critical part of the tech path. Or in detail:
The early Flood Plains road looks great: Doesn't delay the Copper Mine, which takes 3 turns anyway, means both Granary chops come in together so we're no longer overflowing off the Spear, but into the Granary, and gets the Rice farmed a turn earlier, which might open up an extra growth/whip option somewhere, in combination with a Scout change.
Scout first gave me a headache last time I checked - or maybe I just couldn't bring myself to work an unimproved flood plains tile instead of a plain-river-Copper Mine - I forget! Since the chops don't go into the Spear, but into the Granary, there may well be an option of Scout first, then half-built Axe, then Granary, then whipped Axe. certainly worth checking. The earlier Rice also gives us more options for balancing growth against whips. I need to play again, but I seem to remember being an critical hammer short, and then losing the overflow, so the revised chop timing sounds promising. Only obvious downside would be anger from the later whip doesn't clear as fast, but that might be manageable by the time we build serious whip anger around T40.
The Worker turn won't automatically speed the Cows, because the Rice farm improvement originally split Worker turns 1-2-1, and on the third turn the first free Worker already headed to the Cows. Instead we now get 2 Workers free on the same turn, rather than one. To get the Cows Pastured faster, we'd have to send both Workers down there. That isn't terribly efficient because the Cow already involves an unproductive move turn. However, Cow priority is viable, because the second Cottage isn't planned to be worked until turn 41, and then only once until turn 45.
So instead, try this: Team the Workers, road the Rice, then move them together to 1S of Duck Hunt and put 2 turns into something (like a Cottage), then move both onto the Cow, and complete the Pasture on schedule (T38). The Rice road makes the moves towards the Cow productive, so is a marginal delay, and ultimately pre-solves health cap issues around turn 50.
After the Cow is Pastured, either one of those Workers can then handle the first Library chop (albeit probably the southern forest first), or the new Worker #4 handles this chop immediately upon moving up from the capital. The Library chop timing is very precise, but I suspect one of those options can be made to work. The other ex-Cow Worker can finish the partial Cottage on their way to where-ever. We only need to watch that Contra gets its road in by the time the Settler arrives there (T48). The timing of the second Duck Hunt (Settler) chop is much more relaxed.
I think the Silver is a "Red Herring" until absolutely needed, because it takes so many turns to get it connected. Worker #4 doesn't need to mine the Silver so early for production because the capital is so busy whipping it never has the spare population. We've (currently) got the whip anger managed such that we don't need the happiness until Worker #3 mines it after improving the capital's Rice. The key question is: Could we whip more if we had the Silver connected 4 turns earlier (roughly T45 instead of T49). The answer is probably no, because our cities are already really angry by around turn 40, and by turn 45 they're actually starting to cool off, Silver or none. Meanwhile diverting Worker #4 to the Silver means they aren't available around Duck Hunt, which delays something - Flood Plains Cottage or a chop.
Added: On the tech side, Silver isn't a flexible as it seems, because in the time it takes to get the Silver improved, we can have at least another pair of Cottages placed at Duck Hunt, or just work the inland water at he capital. My logic is that two 2/0/2 gives the same sort of short-term research flexibility as one 0/2/5. Maybe that's a bit naive? More pragmatically, we're only looking at about 4 turns between an early (Worker #4) and late (Worker #3) Silver, and those turns comes after the most critical part of the tech path (up to Writing).
One option if Writing is tight may be to only partly research Archery. Being, say, 1 turn away from Archery would still allow us to tech it and whip some defenses, assuming we had some warning of a rush. With 4 metal units already planned, we'd only fall victim to the type of mass build-up that we should easily spot via power changes.
Oh, and in case you missed it, I re-hashed the Axe/Library gambit in the previous post, to avoid hammer lose, bringing with it several further improvements in expansion speed.
![[Image: 020.2.JPG]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42880948/PBEM31/020.2.JPG)
![[Image: 021.1.JPG]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42880948/PBEM31/021.1.JPG)
![[Image: 021.4.JPG]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42880948/PBEM31/021.4.JPG)
![[Image: 020.c.JPG]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42880948/PBEM31/020.c.JPG)
![[Image: 020.d.JPG]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42880948/PBEM31/020.d.JPG)
![[Image: 021.simsheet.jpg]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42880948/PBEM31/021.simsheet.jpg)
Paranoia +1: GingerEagle has likely teched the Wheel as a perfectly sensible pre-requisite to Financial Cottages. But the Wheel also greatly increases the potential military threat - they now have all the required tech to Phalanx rush. Temporary -1 for lack of Slavery.
. Their failed rush has at least offset any expansion bonus Dazed might have had with Imperial.
Nicolea is a solid player, I expect he'll be advising same.![[Image: rbpbem31_t51.jpg]](http://www.capsu.org/civ4/rbpbem31_t51.jpg)
