Dreylin stops for a bite with Decius

[Dreylin]

t44 to t49 -

Turns have been pretty routine builder, founded Noggin last turn:


Haven't seen any Barbs recently. I suspect that Ventessel is bearing the brunt of the them:

Power graph is particularly telling.

[Dreylin]

t50 -

Was getting bored, so I decided to do some exploring:



I had been planning another Settler out of Bagpuss after the Worker, but I don't have the support at the moment to push it out of borders (7 Bloodpets for 3 cities). Instead I think I'll put out a 5th Worker and maybe another Bloodpet before the GM is available for the queue.

[Dreylin]

t51 -

And now it's time to retreat again...


Definitely right to stop at 4 cities for a while, get the GMs online and some more troops out, and then push out another round of expansion.

I also exposed a few extra tiles in this direction, which I think proves that this area is safe backlines (and that Yaffle will be on his perch for a while!):


Thinking about tech paths at the moment for post-CoL and am currently weighing a couple of options:

1) Festivals-Drama (780b)
2) Fishing-Mysticism-Message (760b)
3) Hunting-??? (300b+)

#1 gives me an expensive way to enhance my Happiness with Carnivals, an easy way to pop borders, and Sanitation. (I think if I start now I'd be a virtual lock for getting there) Doesn't give me any troop enhancements for a long time.

#2 gives me control of what should be a powerful Religion on this map, added Happiness from that Religion and Temples (w/Incense) and slightly enhanced (if expensive) troop options. Also all the benefits of Fishing.

#3 is the fastest, most cost-effective way to get some extra Happiness - Ivory is the only non-claimed Happy currently visible, and doesn't require a Hammer investment to realise.

On that note, I notice that I have 3 "pairs" of Resources in my immediate AOI - Cotton, Dyes & Ivory. Presumably, this means that others have similar, but different "pairs" of their own, and this is intended to foster trade between the civs. On this note, I will start to look at what it will take (beyond Cartography) to get a route to Ventessel to initiate trading - yes he's the Kurios and therefore a long-term threat, but right now he's having trouble and is falling behind the rest so is therefore a good trading prospect if we can get it set up.

If my undedlurker wants to offer thoughts, they'd be gratefully received.

[Qgqqqqq]

undedlurker

Hush. Your last two updates had nothing to comment on, and I was travelling all yesterday.


I wouldn't retreat with the warrior, but press on to that Graveyard, personally. That lizard is stopped, and might be a while before another attacks. If you don't get it now, you may never get the graveyard - and any rewards are more valuable now than later.


I think you overstate the importance of getting MotD first - sure, it's nice for free spreads, but it doesn't preclude getting it later on. Nor does it offer a military benefit, at least for a long, long time. I wouldn't go for it until after fishing becomes worth researching.


As always, I favor Drama over the other options there. Hunting is good, when you're not far off needing it for something else (hawks, want to build hunters, and so on), but not really worthwhile on its own for one happy. So of those options, I favor Drama, as a valuable first-to, giving (the best) culture and (admittedly) expensive happiness (and don't forget Public Baths). And if we're going farm-economy long term (pretty much required as Calabim), we'll definitely want Sanitation.

For me, though, the real question is if you want to focus on one of those rather than going the Moroi route and so on.


Good idea with trading, btw. Ventessel isn't a long-term threat, though - if he's having trouble early-game, there's no way he'll ever be a big player, as the Kurios thrive on early advantages and lose steam later on.

[Dreylin]

Oh well, I've already started retreating the Bloodpet. I see what you're saying about the risk / reward and I still agree it was right to explore with the Scout (even knowing how it turned out), but I have few enough troops as it is and I'll turn your point about Ventessel back and say that losing one right now would delay the snowball from the opportunity cost of having to rebuild it. (plus, I don't want to lose The Bony King of Nowhere as I'm particularly fond of that song, heh)

Been thinking a bit more about techs while waiting for the turn and have extended my sim/Worker plan another ~15turns, so I'll mix my reply to your thoughts with my own planning.

Firstly, I'm delaying CoL by 2 turns. I could finish on t56 with close to a zero bank balance, however the next Settler comes out of Ivor on t58 so I won't revolt until then. The Monument in Noggin finishes t58 as well, so that's 2/3 build queues that won't be ready for the Manors. Bagpuss is scheduled to finish a 3rd consecutive Worker on t57 - bringing me to 6 for 4 cities (3 of them capped), which feels like a good number. I could therefore start the Manor that turn or push out a Bloodpet first, which is the plan. On reflection though, 1t faster Manor beats an extra unit so I'll probably switch research back on next turn instead.

Next tech path; I've already pretty-much discarded Hunting for the simple reason that although it would give me the ability to Camp an Ivory, I won't actually have one in borders for the foreseeable future unless I move my next city location - currently the Southern Copper spot. About MotD; I'm not as focused on the first-to aspect (although that would get it straight into 2 cities without additional builds) but on the access to additional happy and culture. I do feel that this start is fairly constrained for Happiness, particularly since the Dyes goes straight into supporting the GM unhappiness. Fishing is useful as soon as I want to settle some more cities, but since that's not soon I do take your point. I could go Mysticism first for Pagan Temples, but again build queue. I'm going off this route at the moment.

I ran the numbers on Drama; I think that if I save gold for 5t I can do a straight burn and land it EoT 74, which seems a respectable date. The challenger would (I think) be Aurorarcher's Khazad, who want Festivals for cheap Markets anyway. At any rate, somebody has a significantly higher GNP right now. I don't get the impression from the Scoreboard that DaveV's has enough cities for it to be his Cultural trait, so most likely the Khazad saving gold (possibly in GK). Anyway, based on that schedule the decision point is ~t64 when I'd need to turn on the taps.

Other potential I've been considering is Bronze Working, for instantly upgrading the defense force and, as you point out, access to Moroi. To go there next would be ~3t of gold saving, so decision ~t62 then hit it in ~5t. I'd go this route if I'm feeling threatened (Barbs, DaveV) or if I get a strong feeling that someone will reach Drama first.

So 10t to mull before needing to decide anything....

[Qgqqqqq]

On reflection though, 1t faster Manor beats an extra unit so I'll probably switch research back on next turn instead.

This. GM are the focus, really, not Aristocracy, and they're more important in the more established cities.


I agree with the rest of those points. I think what I'd advise is that you consider both scenarios of Drama with Sanitation, and without, and decide whether it's worth it then (and then compare to other options). (For example, I only went in '39 because it was worthwhile without - you've got a better chance here, so you don't need to ignore winning it as a feasible option, but you do need to take it into account.

What would you use PT for, btw?

[Dreylin]

Pagan Temple would be +2Happy / pop / hpt. I suppose they also open up the option of running a Priest for ... something, but I'll be honest and say that I haven't really considered that.

Maybe I'm putting too much focus on trying to push the happy cap, but i really does feel constraining.

[Qgqqqqq]

Ah. Aren't you in Aprenticeship/Nationhood yet? (Isn't education on the way to CoL?)

[Dreylin]

OK, let's break this question down properly shall we:

Ah. Aren't you in Apprenticeship/Nationhood yet? (Isn't education on the way to CoL?)

No, and yes respectively. But you know the latter and I think you credit me with enough sense not to run a non-SPI revolt into a pair of relatively unimportant civics just a few turns before a more important civic becomes available. So what you're really asking is:

Have you thought about switching?

Well clearly not since we're having this conversation!

Don't you think you should?

Think about it, or do it?

Think about it and then use that to justify whether or not to do it.

OK fine!

Apprenticeship trades 2xp for -10% production on units, except that due to everything rounding down that's more like -1hpt instead. Nationhood replaces that lost 10% production and adds a few little perks like reduced WW and a Happy from Training Yards. The opportunity cost of Apprenticeship is nothing, but Nationhood replaces Religion which gives happiness to cities with State Religion and extra happy to all Temples (also +10% Culture, but since I am virtually uncultured that is meaningless in this discussion).

So it boils down to 2xp on new units verses potential extra happiness from going the Religion route. If I was going that way, it would be a much harder choice, but since I'm pretty-much decided against that option in the near-term then it makes sense to make the switch - and the Happiness from TY is a bonus when we get there.

Caveat: if it would cost 2t of revolt to get the 3rd civic swap, then I'm probably going to stick with just putting the Aristocracy change on the board and hold off the Nat/App switches.


Now I know you've seen more of the map than me (even if not in detail) so maybe you won't want to comment on this, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Happiness situation; do you think the low Happy cap is constraining me particularly, or do you think I'm making a big deal out of nothing?

I did realise (finally ) that I've been twisting myself unnecessarily to manipulate tile yields to stop the cities going over Happy cap when I could just use the Avoid Growth option instead.

I also realise that once I have the Manors online that there is at least a mitigation of the extra unhappy pop - essentially the trade is 2food and some expenses for 1hammer ... hmmm, although if I am using Avoid Growth and "losing" food to that, then really the food part of the equation is removed and it's just a commerce to hammer trade. Definitely need to think about this more and look at the likely tile configurations as to how it would play out. (and this doesn't mention the "secret" return of the unhappy pop's food when building a Worker/Settler )

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah, that question was more about the subtext of "aren't we going to revolt into those alongside Aristocracy" than what I actually asked. By the by, I think that sometimes as Calabim it can be worth going Apprenticeship/Religion, because the GM mean that it barely affects your bloodpets building. That's especially the case if you're in Godking (and what I did in '39).

I haven't seen the map in that sort of detail. But I would say that happiness I almost always a problem in EitB, especially in more natural scripts, especially for Calabim, and especially in the early game (where we can't research everything). And it can be a massive hurdle - that PBEM where I tried to summon Hyborem, for instance, was very, very sparse (I think more so than this), and you could feel it so bad.

Hmm, okay. Avoid Growth, and how I feel about that. What difficulty is this on, again?

Anyway, I'll answer with an anecdote. In the MNAI-derived versions of FFH, there's a UI button called Avoid Unhappy Citizens, which is turned on in all civilizations by default. When I heard of this, I argued vehemently against it, for a number of reasons, not all of which are relevant here. Still, that was not even considering the Calabim case, but speaking generally, and I don't think Unhappy citizens are that bad a deal. It's a tradeoff for some maintenance (normally mitigated by unit support, especially in FFH), 2 food (which has no practical effect, given it doesn't matter for foodhammers, and you don't care if you starve). In return, it gives you more flexibility to respond to happiness hookups (less of a help here), and helps make you more aware of the situation of the various city - not to mention here it gives an extra hammer.

I mean, I still think you should micro tile away from growth, as it's not overly advantageous, and consider food when growing past your cap as no longer part of the equation (so grass forest beats grass lakes farm), but I don't think it's ever something that warrants Avoid Growth, as ultimately that's just ensuring that you're wasting your own cities output.