Dave's Not Throwing Away His Shot

[kjn]

Thanks for the continued great reporting!

What were your thoughts of choosing Discipline over Agoge? And how large will your force to take Hong Kong be? Three warriors and two archers?

[Zero_1627]

Seoul now my suzerain

It's actually the other way around, thankfully

I forgot to check which pantheons had been taken when I chose mine.

Can't You check it at any other time? I mean, which Pantheons are available? Also, can't You check opponents' Pantheon on Diplomacy screen?

Hope all those reading along are enjoying the show

We certainly do!

[oledavy]

Thanks for the continued great reporting!

What were your thoughts of choosing Discipline over Agoge? And how large will your force to take Hong Kong be? Three warriors and two archers?

It's been a blast!

I chose it because I didn't have any need (I hope) for Agoge between now and when I finish State Workforce. It's unlikely I will have to fight any barbs in that time frame, but with a horseman still wandering south of Schuyler and a scout meandering around HK, it's not impossible. It was basically a choice between a civic that would help me not at all, and one that might help. Of course, if I get attacked, I'll really wish I had Agoge. However, I will be swapping in just a few turns, so the window will be small. 

Yes, the initial force inbound to Hong Kong for the t44 attack is 3 warriors and 2 archers. A 3rd archer will join on t45.

Can't You check it at any other time? I mean, which Pantheons are available? Also, can't You check opponents' Pantheon on Diplomacy screen?

Unfortunately no, or if you can, I am unaware of it. It would be a nice bit of additional intelligence to have, but, eh, spilled milk and all that.

[oledavy]

Turn 42

Okay, I took a good 20 minutes with this turn, and as a result, have a ton of screenshots and was actually able to catch a bunch more subtle details. Nothing earth-shattering, but it was nice to not be under the gun while playing the turn. Unfortunately for our turn pace, I think we're just about at the limit of the period in which we can blitz out a lot of turns on a Saturday morning.

And....Photobucket is being dumb. Time to try Imgur. 

Alrighty, Eureka time!



zzzzz..... Well, it's not the worst to get, considering it's one of those annoying Eurekas to land if you don't have much coastal territory. But, I doubt I'm going to build a harbor for a long time....

Got a new bunch of quests. 

Hong Kong needs a trade route, but it doesn't really matter at this point. 

As for Carthage: 



Jeez, welp, never going to get that. Also, while we're up here: 



So, first off, hello second iron! It's really far away though. Second, Carthage is yet another city-state in an awful location. No freshwater, just like Seoul. Even if it's benefit wasn't invaluable, this would be a pretty crappy city location. 

Meanwhile, in the east: 



That one looks a lot more manageable. 

Also of note, the barb horseman. I think he won't be able to get past Seoul though. What's more notable is Archduke's scout, who suspiciously moved back north after heading south. I swear, if he now kills my trade route, I'm going to be a little pissed. 



Speaking of the Archduke, he has a ridiculous amount of gold. I don't think he has bought anything since the start of the game. I imagine he's saving for a settler. 

Meanwhile, in Germany: 



Frankfurt is growing like a week on those 4 food tiles. It's already at size 3. This is powering Singaboy's science to a respectable number. I will surpass him next turn however with the completion of the campus.

So, I know I said I can't figure out what pantheon's people took, and while that continues to be true for Woden and Alhambram, I can find out for my neighbors as it turns out.



Not too surprising, I imagine he has quite a few cows and sheep around his start too. 



I don't see any eligible plantations, but I don't have much of his start defogged. Seems solid though, anything that adds culture is decent in my book. 



Upgrading my third archer got me the machinery Eureka. Crossbows will be a longer term tech priority though. For now, I've got irrigation, Mathematics, and Iron Working. 



I didn't realize adding envoys boosted a city-state's defensive strength. Seoul is now harder for Singaboy to attack should he feel so inclined as a result of my influence. Additionally, this means the combat strength of HK will go down before I assault. 

Finally, I laid down a CH this turn. Only 7 turns to complete it! Locking in that cost. Even though encampments are now amazing, CH's are still better long-term, as their buildings benefit from whatever the humanism policy is. Encampments also don't produce gold or GM points. However, the third district will definitely be an encampment. 

Also, for what it's worth, my one trade route has caused me quite a bit of stress so far, worrying about Archduke or barbs raiding it. More just might be more trouble 

[Zero_1627]

so You CAN see opponents' Pantheon after all , good!

[oledavy]

Turn 43

Me until this turn: 



Then Archduke did a thing.



One of these days, I'm going to get to actually sandbox....

So yeah, as I stated I would be in the last post. I'm pretty pissed. 

It was a struggle not to just react out of anger and queue up military tradition and the wheel immedietly. I did not. However, rest assured, I will be extracting retribution of some sort from Archduke for this. 

As far as this last turn was concerned, all my moves remained the same save 2. I moved the sentry slinger back into my territory and upgraded him into a archer. Meanwhile, my third archer for the HK attack moved into Hamilton and hit Archduke's offending scout for 50HP. The priority right now is defending Hamilton's Campus. The scout has a promotion. If its the one that allows double movement over hills, he can raze the campus. However, I'm almost positive from watching his scout move around it's the double forest move one. We shall see. 

Just a quick reminder to those at home what Archduke's military score is at. 



Meanwhile, I have 150. Just madness. He hasn't seen my army moving towards Hong Kong. He doesn't know that it's all not located just north of Schuyler. 

Internationally, Singaboy completed a settler. 



Anyway, so now let's talk about this. So, I can only assume this is an opportunistic declaration of war. Archduke probably thinks he can get away with it because he just finished his encampment, and has horses. That probably means he's researching Horseback Riding. As far as my immediate plans: 

 - The Hong Kong attack is going ahead. I'm already in position, and not capturing a free size 6 city at this point would be foolish. 
 - I switched research to mathematics, where it will stay for now. I'm mostly going to stick to my previous plan. The change is that instead of Hamilton building workers and settlers, it's going to build warriors for the next few turns. My alternate thought was to research Wheel and Military Tradition, and I still may get the latter sooner rather than later, but chariots aren't that much better than Oligarchy boosted warriors, and I don't think are worth the investment at this point. 

When I slip back into Agoge next turn, (I know see why kjn inquired about the switch    ), I'll just start cramming out two turn warriors. My two archers should be sufficient to hold the line until I can raise an army. As for civics, I'm going to continue my push to politicial philosophy to get me to Oligarchy as soon as possible. I also desperately need the civic that saves 1 gpt for military units, as killing that trade route has left my gpt in the dirt. 

My question to myself is if I want to build hoplites - a question it may have been better to ask before I ended turn as I left production on a worker to take advantage of the corvee bonus. I may cram out a couple warriors then a couple hoplites, so I have something to counter horsemen. Then again, I can produce 2 1/2 warriors for the same price as a hopilte, and hoplites won't get the oligarchy strength bonus. Quantity may exceed quality here, even if we're talking about 36 str. horsemen. We'll see, I'll check out the math. 

No though, I at the very least want to choke and pillage Archduke's capital, and if I can, conquer it. So, I'll take Hong Kong, build up a second army from Hamilton, and if things still look favorable, I'll embark a punitive expedition against Archduke and we'll actually re-enact the Pelopponesian War.

I'm just dying to know the train of thought that led him to this decision. It just looks insane from my perspective. If he does want to bring me down a notch, why not wait a mere 13 turns until he has a GG, and launch a surprise attack? Why attack the person who has nearly triple your military when you aren't sure where it all is? I would be worried that he's just going to overrun Schuyler with a couple horsemen while my army is away, but it's doubtful he has more than a few warriors and slingers at the moment. By the time he has enough to attack Schuyler, my reinforcements should be on the way.

Is there something I'm just missing? (Obviously lurkers can't tell me, but I'm going to sit here wondering it for quite some time to come).

[kjn]

When I slip back into Agoge next turn, (I know see why kjn inquired about the switch    )

It was just idle curiosity. I think I can say that without breaking the genlurker code.

Is there something I'm just missing? (Obviously lurkers can't tell me, but I'm going to sit here wondering it for quite some time to come).

No comments.

Last: 

[oledavy]

I went back to look at some things. Timeline for lurkers

t48: 2nd archer arrives to defend Schuyler
t50: 1st Warrior arrives to defend Schuyler
t52: 2nd Warrior arrives to defend Schuyler

I wish I had a road between the two cities now.   On the flip slide, I can build a new trader to get a road between HK and Hamilton and speed the return of the units up there. 

I'm having difficulty planning precise civic swaps/build queues at the moment because I know I will be killing units around HK and getting culture from that. We're just going to have to play it by ear. I am likely going to try and build 2 warriors as a stop gap measure then invest the time to build 2-3 hoplites once the situation around Schuyler is stabilized. 

Regarding Archduke. 

He does not have HBR at the moment, although I imagine he is close. I think horsemen cost 320 gold, in which case, with the pillage gold from my trade route, he has enough to buy one right off the bat. However, subsequent Horsemen, even with the 50% production policy, will take his capital 6 turns to build each, based on my estimate of his hpt (10).

[oledavy]

Or maybe he built a second city for iron and this is the prelude to a swordsman rush. 

Or maybe I'm jumping at shadows and this actually just was an opportunistic raid with no follow-up en route. 

Only time will tell. Need to be ready for any of those eventualities though.

[Zero_1627]

go Hamiltonia!

This _looks_ like an opportunistic move on a glance - pillage an important trade route (and get lots of gold) in exchange for not-so-useful-anymore scout (which might get to live).

Still - You have to prepare for follow-up anyway. And if You can get on the offensive and take his capital... it seems mighty tempting! And when You get culture from fighting - war is not as crippling economically as usual

EDIT: I'd be somewhat afraid of opportunistic dogpile - opponents' neutrality was what allowed Sulla to go into dominant position in PBEM1, and I think everyone has read that. Still, if You can take a city reasonably quickly, I say go for it! Armies don't grow on trees after all

Just don't drag this - try to make peace if initial attack fails.