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[SPOILERS] TheArchduke blasts into Space as Russia

Warning: incoming wall of text.

I had the spare time to type up a bit of a big picture post today and thought I'd share some of my musings. Leaving aside food and production for the moment, there are four major currencies that get spent in Civ6: science, culture, gold, and faith. Let's take a look at how these might apply to TheArchduke's Russia in terms of emphasizing general civilization development and district production. I'm going to run through these currencies in the order that makes sense for Russia, not necessarily the order of individual importance.

Faith: We'll start with faith as a currency. Faith is one thing that Russia should have in spades throughout this game. The unique Lavra district is in the conversation for best overall district in the game, a half-cost Holy Site that produces double Great Prophet points and a small trickle of Great Writer/Artist/Musician points. The Lavra virtually guarantees Russia the first religion in any non-China game and with luck TheArchduke will land the first religion here. (It's tough to beat 4 Great Prophet points/turn as early as Turn 30.) From what I remember reading, there was a small change in Gathering Storm that made the Lavra even better: after recruiting a Great Prophet, excess Great Prophet points are converted into faith. This will instantly add another 2 faith/turn to every Lavra that gets built as those Prophet points magically become faith. Since it should be possible to place most Lavras with some kind of adjacency bonus, these very cheap districts should be worth 3-4 faith/turn apiece. There's really no reason not to build one in basically every city.

Faith also comes from TheArchduke's Earth Goddess pantheon, which grants 2 faith to every tile with an appeal of 4 or greater. This may well end up being the best pantheon in the game before all is said and done, even better than the culture on plantations since it affects so many more tiles. Taking full advantage of Earth Godddess will require careful planning of tile improvements and districts, but it should be possible to get lots and lots of tiles up to 4 appeal with some micromanagement. We've already mentioned how Lavra and Campus districts add +1 appeal to neighboring tiles, and there's going to be a huge incentive to get 3 promotions onto Liang to unlock the city park improvement (+2 appeal to all neighboring tiles). The city park doesn't have to be worked by a population point to provide this benefit, it also adds +1 amenity to the city if placed next to water, and it remains even after Liang herself gets moved somewhere else. Again, with help from williams and myself on the planning front, I think we could get potentially dozens of tiles up to 4 appeal for the Earth Goddess bonus to kick in. It's enough that I'll probably play another cultural victory game again at some point to take advantage of Liang's city parks for tourist resort abuse (something I didn't know about the last time I did such a game).

So what is the purpose of all that faith? The obvious first use would be to grab apostles and pick up additional beliefs for the religion. If Choral Music and Defender of the Faith are taken upon the religion's founding, that leaves slots for the follower belief and the worship belief. I'm of the opinion that the worship building has a low priority; it doesn't benefit from Choral Music and there will be tons of faith coming in from other sources. Better to invest production into libraries and universities as opposed to wats for this game. But the founder belief spot has the awesome Church Property belief to grab (+2 gold per city following the religion) which would be a major target if it doesn't get picked up by someone else. If that's gone then Tithe (+1 gold for every 4 followers of the religion) or Stewardship (+1 beaker/+1 gold per Campus/Commercial district following the religion) are decent fallbacks. Some faith will also have to be spent on missionaries to spread the religion and convert other Russian cities, although with an early religion in place there should be a fair amount of natural spread.

But by far the best use of faith in Gathering Storm is the Monumentality dedication unlocked with a Golden Age. The first Classical era Golden Age should already be a lock at this point and I don't think it will be too hard to land one for the Medieval era as well. Monumentality of course unlocks purchasing settlers/builders with faith and further discounts their purchasing cost by 30 percent. Since rushing things with faith already costs 2x production instead of gold's 4x production cost, this represents a massive form of savings. The current settler being trained at the capital costs 110 production by virtue of being the second settler; this would cost 440 gold normally but only 154 faith. TheArchduke could spend 10 turns building this by hand at his capital... or he could faith-rush it with 10 turns of accumulated faith, leaving his capital free to work on districts and buildings. It's obvious which is the better option.

Now someone might correctly point out that the Colonization policy unlocked at Early Empire boosts production of settlers by 50%, and that therefore it's somewhat wasteful to spend faith on purchasing settlers instead of something else like builders. While this is a fair point, it overlooks the best aspect of purchasing a settler instead of building it naturally: the *LOCATION* where the purchased settler appears. If you've played a fair amount of Civ6, you're probably familiar with the scaling food costs in this game. It only costs 15 food to grow from size 1 to size 2 but it costs close to 100 food to grow from size 9 to size 10. The scaling math means that settlers are cheap to produce in terms of food cost at smaller sizes but highly expensive to produce at larger sizes. Conversely, due to the scaling cost of settlers whereby each one is 30 production more expensive than the previous one, players are normally forced to build the settlers in their oldest and largest cities anyway. A new size 1 city just can't finish a settler that costs 210 production or whatever in any kind of a decent timeframe. And new cities need to get their districts up and running anyway if they're ever going to be useful.

Monumentality offers a loophole that gets out of this situation entirely. Suddenly *ANY* brand new city on the frontiers of the empire can faith-rush out a new settler as soon as it hits size 2. The growth of that city is almost unaffected because the food costs to get back to size 2 are so cheap (especially if a trade route has been routed there). The new settler furthermore doesn't have to waste long turns walking out of the heartland off to the corners of the empire, using the exceedingly slow movement system that we all know and love from this game. Instead, the new settler pops into existence right where it needs to be, then has a short walk to its intended destination. Furthermore, there isn't much need to spend faith on builders via Monumentality because every new city should be getting a builder for free via the Ancestral Hall. (Just make sure to be running Serfdom once it's available so that they all pop out with 5 charges.)

We haven't seen this yet in a Civ6 Multiplayer game, but if done properly, I think that accumulating mass faith via Lavras and shrines/temples and Earth Goddess could fuel a tidal wave of rapid expansion across the map. This seems to be a pretty large map with no one close by, making it a perfect test case. Ideally, TheArchduke never builds any settlers by hand after the first few (before Monumentality unlocks with the first Golden Age). All of the settlers come from faith purchases - all of them. It should be really easy to get up to 20, 30, 50, eventually even 100 faith/turn and pop out the settlers left and right. The Archduke is already at 15 faith/turn with a mere 2 cities, and he isn't even having the Great Prophet points get converted into faith yet! All of this is super exciting, and best of all, it synergizes perfectly with the next currency as well: culture.

Culture: TheArchduke has repeatedly pointed out the importance of culture in Civ6. We've seen over and over again in these PBEM games how the player leading in culture hits all of the key civics and policies first, thereby snowballing to an eventual winning position. There's little question that some kind of strategy is needed for picking up extra culture, and the obvious solution for Russia comes in the form of the Choral Music belief. This causes shrines and temples to produce culture equal to their faith output, in other words causing shrines (70 production) to have a value of 2 faith + 2 culture per turn, and temples (120 production) to have a value of 4 faith + 4 culture per turn. The temples in particular are absurdly valuable under Choral Music, converting production into culture at a 3:1 ratio (plus adding faith as well!) Compare the cultural conversion rate of the poor buildings in the Theatre district by way of contrast: the Amphitheatre costs 150 production for 2 culture/turn (7.5 to 1 ratio) while the poor Art Museums cost 290 production for the same 2 culture turn (14.5 to 1 ratio). Of course those buildings can hold Great Works from Great People for additional culture, but that requires having the Great People to begin with as well as building the Theatre districts themselves. Long story short, culture is great to have but difficult to get, and Lavras with Choral Music-boosted buildings are one of the best ways to obtain it.

Since every city is going to be building a cheap Lavra anyway for faith purposes, they can also go ahead and build a temple and shrine as well to cash in on culture via Choral Music. There's no reason ever to build a monument (60 production) when a shrine kicks in extra faith for a slightly higher cost (70 production). The temple costs double the monument but also provides double the culture, along with that hefty 4 faith/turn output as a bonus on top. Again, since cities ideally won't have to waste time training settlers or too many builders, there will be more space available for knocking out shrines and temples. Cash-rusing a quick shrine in new cities would also be a great way to get them up to speed quickly and contributing to the wider empire. The positive feedback loop here practically speaks for itself.

Now that I've written this, I have surely doomed TheArchduke to losing out on Choral Music to a self-destructive Stonehenge build from another player. lol

Science: One of the other great currencies of Civ6 comes in the form of beakers. As we've seen repeatedly in past games, science is not optional for serious Multiplayer. You basically need a Campus district in nearly every city to be competitive with the other players, as falling behind in military tech is a sure recipe for disaster. Fortunately TheArchduke will hopefully be able to pick up both faith and culture simultaneously from his cheap Lavras, allowing him to construct a Campus district as the second choice in nearly every city. There's nothing particularly clever or fancy here, just a need to keep emphasizing science by building lots and lots of Campus districts. Don't chase after Hypatia or worry about any individual Great People at this stage of the game, quantity > quality for the most part. More cities with more population and more Campus districts are the way to go.

Gold: That takes us to the last major currency in Civ6, money itself. We've also seen that gold is extraordinarily useful in Civ6, both for purchasing things via cash-rushing and (arguably more importantly) for upgrading units. That's been toned down in Gathering Storm by introducing the stockpiled resource requirements, but a quick upgrade of units remains very important for military considerations. Basically, players need lots of money and and as many trade routes as possible. This makes for another obvious point: every city should get either a Commercial district or a Harbor district to unlock its own trade route, most commonly as the third district at size 7. Maybe some cities want this district as the second choice but that should be the general pattern: Lavra, Campus, Commercial/Harbor. What about all of the other districts? Don't build them, they aren't worth it. Just get one or maybe two of them to unlock their related boosts and nothing more. One or two Industrial/Entertainment districts are plenty to spread their benefits around to neighboring cities. As for the others, Encampments are only helpful if you're going for early conquest (which this game doesn't appear to be doing) and Theatre districts are just bad in general. These districts can be squeezed into the few cities that grow above size 10. For everything else, the Lavra/Campus/trade route district trio should be the way to go.

One other thing that does bear mentioning is how much better Harbor districts have become in Gathering Storm. These districts were basically garbage in the release version and have been vastly buffed over time into quasi-overpowered status. Aside from letting inland cities build ships, the first tier building in the Harbor district (the lighthouse) now grants +1 base food, +1 food on all water tiles, and +3 housing if the district is placed next to the city center. This essentially means that cities can be settled anywhere along the coast and have decent housing even if there's no fresh water anywhere nearby; base housing on coastal tiles is 3 and a granary + lighthouse combo takes that up to 8, more than enough to get the city to size 7 and three districts. (If you add an Aqueduct to that same dry spot, it's worth another 3 housing and the city can make it to size 10! Dry coastal spots near mountain peaks are now totally viable for large cities in the second expansion.) So overall then, inland cities on rivers want Commercial districts while the cities on the coast will want Harbors. With some planning it should be possisble to get the district discount on those Harbors too and help make them cheaper to build. (Churning out lots of Lavras helps activate that discount formula quite nicely.)

Conclusion: So what would this look like in practice? I'm envisioning a setup where a steady stream of new settlers are being faith-rushed at the borders in little size 2 and size 3 cities using Monumentality. The settlers move quickly to their destinations and receive free builders upon settling from the Ancestral Hall. These builders use the huge borders granted by Russia to chop/harvest a tile or two that won't interfere with the Earth Goddess bonus and knock out the cheap half-cost Lavra almost instantly. As soon as the Lavra is finished, the new city either cash-rushes or chops/harvests a shrine to get some faith and culture flowing. Trade routes back to the capital city (worth at least 3 food and 1 production thanks to the Lavra/Campus combo) ensure that rapid growth to larger city sizes where more tiles can be worked that pick up the Earth Goddess faith bonus. Meanwhile, the inner core cities are working on more districts, more buildings, and enough military to keep everything safe. The whole enterprise is an exercise in snowballing, taking advantage of the lack of maintenance costs in Civ6. The only slowdown comes in the form of more expensive settlers, but if you faith income keeps snowballing right alongside the rising settler cost, there's very little to stop the whole process. (This is basically what I did in my Mansa Musa game on Livestream, only using gold instead of faith; if anything, the cheaper faith-rushing cost should be even more effective.)

Hopefully I didn't ramble on too much there. I don't know how well this will work in practice but it's something that I'd love to see in action just to test it out.
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I can verify that the monumentality faith snowball works extremely well in single player games given sufficient space to expand. Russia, Japan, Egypt, or anyone who lucks into a CS with a spammable faith improvement can churn out cities like crazy, and make them profitable with little more than the free Ancestral Hall builder. I've had triple digit faith income in the medieval era when circumstances were favorable, and so far in this game, they have been. I'll also note that there's nothing stopping you from cranking hard built settlers from the capital (with +100% production from policy+Ancestral Hall) and using them to fill in a few closer sites while the faith purchased settlers expand the frontiers.

Regarding appeal boosting districts: Holy Sites, Theater Squares, and Entertainment Complexes boost appeal, while Industrial Zones and Encampments reduce it. Campuses, Harbors, and Commercial Hubs have no effect in either direction. In effect, that means that we can probably get a lot of three appeal tiles up to breathtaking with careful Lavra placements, but bumping one or two appeal tiles is going to be much tougher. Liang's City Park, as mentioned, is our best option for trying to squeeze faith out of those kinds of tiles, and conveniently many of the places we would want these near our existing cities just happen to be next to water for the amenity boost. The difficulty is going to be getting Liang those promotions without hurting other parts of our development (Magus and Amani would be neglected much longer than usual), but that's a price we can likely afford.

Woden's late game performance in PBEM15 gave a hint of how powerful this all can be, but we're in a great place to do that much sooner, in a game that isn't already decided. Should be fun!
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@ Sullla

I am not going to do a quote, because your post is quite big.

So, on the faith front, I agree, basically. Russia is perfectly suited to a snowball expansion with faith bought settlers. Whilst the Lavra is quite a strong district, the best reason to do so is the free territory that Russia gets with each city. Normally a new city needs 1-2 tile buys to have reasonable tiles to work with. Not so with Russia.
You also point out rightly, that one of the biggest issues with expansion is that the most productive cities which can cope with the escalating settler costs in the later game are the ones in the center that should build something more sensible instead of one settler after another like district or district buildings that provide science, culture, etc..
So why am I so anxious to get a religion? The DotF of course. If you are not caught with your pants down or against impossible odds, this effectively deters any aggression against you and coupled with a basic defense force (like PBEM 16 has shown) in place in good terrain and defensible makes any offensive nigh on impossible.

I think DotF is more important than Choral Music, which “can” be replaced by Jesuit Education still. Although there is a point to be made that faith will be spent on other stuff with Gathering Storm.
So coming back the faith based massive expansion push could be rather fun to pull off and looking at the map the business case for a faith land grab via monumentality is rather strong.

I do think that our choice of Worship building matters. I am of a mind of getting the +5 faith or the + faith per age building. Ancenstral Hall is also a given with this approach.
 
Going on culture. Yes I am certain I will blame you a bit as I am quite sure that a 3 turn shrine project is not a meaningful delay if it means being first to religion.
Stonehenge is basically (if you are not China and judging from PBEM 16 even then) an insane bad building to get. Either you want a religion (and thus want many holy sites) or not. Stonehenge is more of a SP choice of getting around the deity AI to get a religion and not something you should sink ANY production into in a normal competitive Multiplayer game if you ask me.

So I am quite confident we will see it built and the player who does eaten by his neighbor. rant
 
I disagree on Hypatia and I would disagree heavier if Pingala did not screw up the equation there.
I ESPECIALLY disliked the change to CIV VI where they made population produce less science and culture thereby emphasizing the districts more, as it made Hypatia an even stronger play. I would not bend my game around it and we have lavras to build, but there is still not one campus being built by anyone else.

I did watch your Mansa Musa livestream (as well as that last ill fated FTL run, ouch) and you are as mostly always, right, if you can circumvent the escalating production costs you can break the expansion game. Magnus was the easiest choice to do, enabling 4 settlers without pop costs in the same turn out of one city. Thankfully he has been toned down if only a bit.

@williams

I think we should only buy settlers with faith starting in the classical age, production is too precious and will be needed for campi and more importantly military to enable us to protect our planned, insane expansion push.

I do like your approach to appeal, we should try to maximize and boost tiles that are close to breathtaking. The problem is that the mine is the best non-resource-based improvement especially early on. I am not seeing a terrible lot of feudalism farm triangles around and those mines ruin appeal. The best approach is possible to boost appeal until the middle ages and then mine over everything as soon as we are done expanding.
 
@ Scientific CS
I had the crazy notion of taking the settler and establishing a harbor city near Beyond Timbermist Woods. But it is very likely that we would not get a first contact anyway. What we can do and should do is fortify a slinger or a warrior as soon as we can afford it so a possible CS galley spots us. Even if we do not get first contact, a scientific CS is worth its weight in gold in the midgame.
 
@ General Strategy
Hell March will continue to build the settler when it is done with its current warrior, but what should Fogger do? I lean towards a builder to harvest the wheat, pasture the horse and camp the truffles. We could use the amenity and the boost to population as Fogger will be slow to grow otherwise and can not build a Campus till Size 4.
 
@ 4th city and 5th city. I think Beyond Timbermist Woods and Just do It are high priorities. I am especially wary of not establishing enough harbor cities or even better coastal cities, as games who do drag on into medieval are won by sea and not necessarily by land.
 
Apart from that right now we need to fight barbs and wait for a religion and a 2nd settler.
I still think that a shrine project might make sense in front of the settler, if only the faith conversion was not that atrocious. If both DotF and Choral Music are sniped we are quite crippled. Those Lavras were cheap for sure, but still they cost us time and production as an investment.
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Turn 33

A bit more of barb trouble, I seem to have really put the scout in the middle of nowhere. I am leaning towards hardresearching writing. Maybe put it off for 4-5 more turns and get mining?

Before

   

The slinger moves south to protect the lavra. Military builds were elementary, I would have a real barb problem by now if not for the new units

After

   
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Yeah, really glad that you built the extra warrior out of the capital for barbarian safety. I think with 2 warriors and 2 slingers you'll be OK but it would have been dicey without them. I'm assuming that the capital is going back to finish the settler for Funky; what's up next at Fogger, a builder probably (?)

The timing looks perfect to flip out of Agoge and into Discipline to help with those barbarians next turn. What's going into the Economic card slot? I think that Urban Planning would probably be better than Ilkum here, even if Fogger is starting a builder next. The extra point of production from Urban Planning helps the capital and even at Fogger you'd be going from 6 production to 7 production versus Ilkum going from 6 production to 6 * 1.3 = 7.8 production. Not a huge difference either way it seems.

You asked a good question about continuing to research Writing even without the boost versus swapping to something else and hoping to make contact. I think this comes down to whether you want to push immediately onto a Campus after finishing the Funky settler there. I think the settler would take 4 (?) more turns to finish, so if you do want to go onto a Campus right away you do need to continue with Writing. If you have something else in mind after the settler, then you should probably swap to Mining. Or you could simply gamble on stumbling into someone else in the next 4 turns but that's not reliable. It's too bad that the scout hasn't encountered anyone to date.

Related question: which civic are you researching next? State Workforce and Early Empire both unlock governor promotions so we should be thinking about which governor to pick up as well. (I think double Pingala might be useful but no need to make a decision for a little bit yet.) Early Empire would unlock Colonization policy for more settlers while State Workforce would let you place the Government Plaza and lock it in at a cheaper cost. So to summarize: I think you go for Early Empire first if you're thinking of training settlers in the near future, State Workforce if you aren't. (When do you plan to start the settler for the fourth city? Perhaps having Fogger go builder -> settler while the capital knocks out a Campus district into Government Plaza? This would synergize nicely with a multiple-promotion Pingala in a capital that DOESN'T build settlers and relies on buying them with Monumentality faith later on. Just tossing out ideas here for you to think about.)

Five more turns until the Great Prophet arrives. If the worst happens and someone build Stonehenge, then take Jesuit Education and Church Property and you'll still be in good shape. Don't go wrecking your growth curve just to push out the Prophet two turns faster.
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Oh, one more thing I just thought of: you currently qualify for the district discount on a placed Campus! However, you will *NOT* qualify for that discount if you discover State Workforce before placing the Campus. This is from my old notes on the district discount formula:

District Discounting Mechanic

C = total number of completed districts (regardless of type)
P = placed districts of the specific type in question (e.g. Commercial Hub), this includes the sum of completed and uncompleted districts of the specific type
A = available districts to build, which is based on techs discovered. (e.g. Astrology + Writing + Bronze Working = 3 available districts)

For a specific district type, the discount is available only if both of the following are true:
1) C>=A
2) C/A > P

The values of C and A (completed districts and available district types) are only refreshed when a tech or civic is completed.

The discount does not apply to Spaceport, Aqueduct or Neighborhood and thus these districts are not included when counting up A & C. Count only Aerodrome, Campus, Commercial Hub, Encampment, Entertainment Complex, Harbor, Holy Site, Industrial Zone & Theater Square. Thus A has a range up to 9.

For an example in this game, last turn I finished Currency and noted that I had a discount on the Commercial Hub. I had 4 total districts complete (2 Campus, 2 HS) and 4 possible districts to build (Campus, HS, Encampment, Commercial). Thus C=A=4 and C/A = 4/4 = 1 > 0 = P. Both conditions are met for the first Commercial district placed. After placing the first CH, P becomes 1 thus C/A is no longer greater than P. HOWEVER, after completing the first CH at Nidaros, C/A = 5/4 which is greater than 1 and the discount then applies to the 2nd Commercial Hub.

Thus it is not always cheaper to lock in districts ASAP! With the discount of 40% it was significantly cheaper for me to wait 1 turn to lock in the 2nd CH at Yerevan ... we're talking 55 cogs cheaper! Note that the discount mechanism only looks at your districts and techs, which means that it is independent of the other players actions and a perfect opportunity to optimize build/research orders to maximize the number of districts which get the discount. In fact, with careful planning I think it would be possible to achieve the discount on nearly all of the districts built throughout a game. Theoretically you could get the 40% district discount on all districts except whichever kind you have the most of.

Back to the theoretical prospect of getting the 40% discount on nearly all districts. I'll use a specific build & research order as an example, which would also work under similar circumstances with alternate build & research orders.

1) Research Astrology, build 2 HS. [check!]
2) Research Writing. C=A=2, C/A=1 so the discount would apply to the 1st Campus.
3) Research Bronze Working. After the campus is complete, C=A=3, C/A=1 so the first Encampment is discounted.
4) Research Currency. After the Encampment is complete, C=A=4, C/A=1 so the first CH is discounted.
5) By this time cities are starting to grow. You build a 3rd HS without getting the discount, which makes C/A = 5/4 thus the 2nd Encampment AND 2nd Campus AND 2nd CH now all get the discount.
6) Research Apprenticeship. The 2nd districts from (5) have already been placed and have the discount locked. C/A is 5/5 before any of the 2nd districts complete so you get discount on the first IZ, after any of the 2nd districts complete the ratio is bumped up to 6/5 and the 2nd IZ gets the discount.
7) Repeat (5) & (6) with Drama & Poetery for the Theater, Celestial Navigation for the Harbor, etc. Eventually you'll build the 3rd HS without the discount to enable the 3rd district of each type to get the discount. In theory you could get the discount on every district except the HS in this example, as long as you continue building the other districts evenly. And with the discount at 40% it almost makes the other districts worth building evenly to maintain the discount, especially early on when there aren't many district types available.

Long story short, it seems like finishing Writing quickly and placing the Campus district before finishing State Workforce would be a good idea. In fact, if you finish the Campus before starting the Government Plaza, it would *ALSO* be discounted! This seems like it would be worthwhile to include in upcoming planning. nod
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Either State Workforce or Early Empire will be 42/5.7 = 7.4 = 8 turns (t42) at current culture rates. That's a little long to wait to put a district down and we'd need to figure out something to build in the capital for four turns or so. Incidentally, that's the same amount of time the builder will take to complete in Fogger.

The counterargument to building a quick campus is a litany of minor factors:
- We can't harvest the wheat
- We leave Fogger without a good campus location
- We get the really good (+5) adjacency and Ancestral Hall later
- We waste some of the science the earlier campus gets us by researching the tech unboosted

As for the last one, researching writing without the boost "wastes" 20 beakers that could be put into something else. That's seven turns of the +3 campus we plan to put on the wheat tile. Going Plaza in Hell March and trying to harvest the Wheat into Fogger will slow the campus by more than seven turns, but it will be reasonably close and I'm pretty sure getting the +5 faster will make up for that. Discounting both districts won't be a problem unless meeting somebody autocompletes Writing before the Plaza is down, in which case we can just pivot back to the early campus plan.

If we do like the Plaza -> Campus plan, what do we do with the extra four turns of production in the capital? Putting those hammers into the shrine seems reasonable, but we could also try to kick out another builder.

Here's an approximate timeline of the "cute" plan:
t34: Foreign Trade completes
t38: Settler completes in Hell March
t42: State Workforce completes. Builder completes in Fogger. Hell March places Plaza.
t44: Builder harvests wheat into Fogger, which grows to or just shy of pop 4.
~t46: Plaza completes. Fogger starts campus.
~t52: +5 Campus completed in Fogger

vs the early campus plan:
t34: Foreign Trade completes
t38: Writing completes. Settler completes in Hell March. Campus placed at Hell March
~t42: +3 campus completed in Hell March

All told, building the Plaza first in Hell March slows the first Campus by ten turns. Seven of those turns are made up by not researching Writing without the boost, and the other three are made up by getting an additional +2 adjacency on that district (much more than) five turns sooner.

I've gone back and forth on the wisdom of this approach before, but I'm completely sold now. Plaza at Hell March, Campus at Fogger is the better way to play this if we don't get the writing boost before State Workforce completes (and we should avoid getting the boost before that point, in the unlikely event that we are given a choice).
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Hey williams I do hope you continue to anaylze and invest time lurking, but I do disagree with you. The +5 for the campus we will get anyway if we build it before or after the gov plaza. I do think that we have the oppurtunity to build discounted districts without twisting our whole game around it and we should seize it.

I lean towards finishing state workforce shortly after writing (hardreasearching it). And get the gov plaza and then a 3rd lavra and a second campus before I unlock any other district. After that we should look into getting a cultural district soon so we can store works of writing somewhere.

Turn pace is picking up:

Turn 34

   

I fear that we have spotted by another barb camp up north, which means discipline is really coming in handy. The settler can be done in 5 turns as soon as I switch worked tiles in Hell March next turn. Fogger is getting a builder to harvest the wheat. This will be done in 10 turns, there may be a case for delaying state workforce and even writing. Maybe throw in archery before that?

The boost to writing is down to 3 turns next turn thanks to my indecision here.

Anyway, the mapmaker has GOT to be kidding me. rolleye

Check this military CS out:

   

Come on. Our scouting luck except for the natural wonder is abysmal.
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(January 4th, 2020, 07:25)TheArchduke Wrote: Hey williams I do hope you continue to anaylze and invest time lurking, but I do disagree with you. The +5 for the campus we will get anyway if we build it before or after the gov plaza. I do think that we have the oppurtunity to build discounted districts without twisting our whole game around it and we should seize it.

I should clarify: the plan I outlined does get the discount on both districts, and although we will get that +5 adjacency eventually regardless, we will get it late enough that the +5 from Fogger on t52 will produce more total science than the +3 from Hell March on t42, raised to +5 once we place and complete the Plaza at pop 7 (t65ish), if the losses from (continuing to) hard research Writing are taken into account.

The short term payoff is small enough that those 20 "wasted" beakers are a substantial part of the calculation, which if nothing else means that the short term benefits aren't that big either way, but given that long term factors clearly support going Plaza first (Fogger's 2nd best campus location is much worse than Hell March's 2nd best campus location, Fogger's next district will be slowed substantially without the wheat harvest) this little bit of twisting around seems well worth it.

I'm not about to cut and run if you don't wind up going with this, but I think further consideration is merited.
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This is a situation where I also agree with TheArchduke and disagree with williams. One of my own weaknesses when it comes to the Civilization games can be getting too caught up in a perfect micro plan as opposed to playing the hand that you're dealt and going with something that's less perfect but stronger in the immediate future. I think this is one of those situations. The biggest issue with favoring the Government Plaza over a Campus is that the Government Plaza doesn't actually do anything when it completes. I suppose it grants a governor promotion and that's not nothing, but governor promotions will be rolling in from State Workforce and Early Empire civics research anyway. By contrast, a faster Campus is worth 3 beakers immediately, and that's an increase of 60% (!) over the current science rate. And the overall timing just slots in much better, with Writing research completing in 4 more turns, in time for the capital to push on to a Campus district right away, build the Campus with the 40% district discount bonus, and then go on to an (also discounted) Government Plaza afterwards. Under the alternative "cute" plan, what is the capital working on after the settler finishes and before State Workforce research completes? It feels like there's a gap there, and every turn of early game production is crucial. Having a good development plan that finishes faster, fits well with build/research timings, and keeps the Civ snowball rolling is better than a perfect development plan that takes significantly longer to get up and running.

Williams does bring up a good point though: if the capital builds the Campus then Fogger would have to build the Government Plaza since the capital can't build a third district until it hits size 7 in population. But the thing is, I actually think that's a good plan! [Image: biggrin.gif] Fogger has good production and can build a (discounted) Government Plaza quickly thereby freeing up the capital to work on other things. It's also probably better to let Fogger do the expensive Ancestral Hall rather than tying up the capital down the road. The timings also line up pretty well here in terms of builds and research completing, just make sure to avoid placing and starting the Government Plaza until after the capital finishes its Campus (to activate the district discount, and remember that a tech/civic needs to be finished researching to "refresh" the game's list of what gets the discount.) For reference, I believe the Campus at the capital will cost about 55 production right now with the discount in place (4-5 turns for the capital to finish) and the Government Plaza would cost about the same afterwards (6-7 turns for Fogger). These are not expensive districts, fortunately.

Also something that I noticed in the discussion: both TheArchduke and williams seemed to want to harvest the wheat tile where the Campus is going to be placed. Don't do it! Resource harvests are a very weak use of builder charges this early in the game. Based on the harvesting formula that wheat tile would be worth about 40-45 food right now, roughly one population point at Fogger. I think it would be much better to use the builder charges to improve the good tiles at Fogger as opposed to wasting one of them on a harvest of limited value. Out of the three builder charges, one should be used for sure on the truffles and silks to unlock their amenities. That will boost every city into Happy status and produce increased city output across the board. The other tile to improve is either the cows or the horses, and I think I prefer the cows just because it's faster (less turns of wasted movement) and it provides Fogger with a decent 3 food/1 production tile to work. The cows aren't worth it as a 3/0 tile but I think they do become worthwhile at 3/1. Feel free to disagree if you prefer the 2/3 horses tile which would also be an awesome output.

Really glad that TheArchduke produced those extra military units to deal with the barbarians. And don't worry about scouting those city states, you'll reach them eventually with ships/embarked units. At least you know they're out there, which is probably more than most of the other players.
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