(May 25th, 2020, 04:52)chumchu Wrote: My main problem is that at its current state some of the traits feel a bit too much like a mix of different small bonuses (especially AGG, CHA and IMP). It would be easier for players new or skeptical to changes with fewer and stronger bonuses. If you have multiple bonuses, they should be on one theme. Also avoid mixing up the theme between traits so all of them feel distinct.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but some of your proposed changes run into your own criticism, but I'm getting ahead of my self. I think it helps to state the theme of each trait:
Financial: Commerce and Gold
Expansive: Health (and workers, but those were tagged on in BtS)
Creative: Culture and to a lesser degree early science
Charismatic: Happiness and mid to late game military
Protective: Defense and with a hint of trade in the castle, but I admit that is weak
Imperialistic: Expansion and Military (don't forget the Great General)
Aggressive: (Early) military
Philosophic: Great Persons and late science
Industrious: Wonders and hammer output
Organized: Maintenance reduction and some buildings
Spiritual: Religion and civics
(May 25th, 2020, 04:52)chumchu Wrote: FIN: Your change is great. (Land tiles need 3 commerce to get bonus)
I like it, too. Nothing to add so far.
(May 25th, 2020, 04:52)chumchu Wrote: EXP: Remove Granary. Add double production speed of Aqueduct, Grocer. 35% faster production of workers and work boats.
EXP is the least elegant of these changes. The best argument for it is that it enables an easy fix to PRO and is familiar to RTR players. You could also move worker/work boat bonus to PRO instead of the granary but that might leave EXP a bit too strong and PRO a bit too weak.
I think Granary fits perfectly with the theme of Expansive, so I would rather remove the worker bonus. I would like to keep my Expansive so far with the removed worker and added Aqueduct as it fits the theme perfectly.
(May 25th, 2020, 04:52)chumchu Wrote: CRE: 50% speed of library instead of 100%
This drops the library from a triple whip to a double whip, which might be okay. My implementation dropped it down to a 4-pop whip, but I could see why this might be too hard. I think going with +50% might be okay.
(May 25th, 2020, 04:52)chumchu Wrote: CHA: I think the bonus to libraries being split on two traits makes both of them less distinct. There is no precedent for this in the base game, and I think that is for a reason. The added bonus production to monuments already makes these two traits quite similar. An extra happy is to me the cleanest change to this trait and it has the benefit of making it more unique.
CHM: 2 happiness base (instead of 1).
I see the point you are making with libraries. I would disagree a little bit about the monument bonus making it similar to Creative. Yes together with the happiness it pushes you for an earlier monument and therefore culture pop, but have to remind you that even without the production bonus the monument remains a 1-pop building. What the production bonus actually does is either give you some nice hammer overflow for any other buildings or either the overflow is converted to gold. I would like to keep the production bonus for monuments as its quite unique in its application and leaves open some interesting options. It also stays in the with the trait.
Yes extra happiness is the cleanest option. But at the same time its highly map dependent and at some point more happiness just doesn't make the cut. In a previous version I had the colosseum added to Charismatic, which definitly fits the theme, but I don't think it makes the trait that much better. Like I already said the main reason for RtR to add the colosseum was because there the colosseum adds additional XP to units. But I don't want to mess with the XP balance here, which is also the reason why buildings like the barracks or stable should not be added to Charismatic.
I will think some more about Charismatic.
(May 25th, 2020, 04:52)chumchu Wrote: PRO: Get granary.
EXP is the least elegant of these changes. The best argument for it is that it enables an easy fix to PRO and is familiar to RTR players. You could also move worker/work boat bonus to PRO instead of the granary but that might leave EXP a bit too strong and PRO a bit too weak.
I understand the point you are making here, but I have to say adding the granary here, doesn't fit the theme of Defense. I already played some games with the trade route bonus and start like it very much. Yes it's also not fully in theme, but at least there is the trade route from castles. It also opens up interesting synergies with Expansive in the Harbor. I will keep it with the trade bonus until some test games have convinced me otherwise.
(May 25th, 2020, 04:52)chumchu Wrote: IMP: I'm not sure that it needs any of these buffs. It is rated in the mid tier which I think is reasonable. If you do not buff PHI I do not understand why you would buff IMP. Both are very useful in the right situation but run into limitations (upkeep, increasing GP costs). If you do want to buff it, a reasonable buff is to increase its bonus to settler production to 67% or 75% or 100% depending on how weak you think it is. This is easier to remember than adding a bonus to two disparate buildings.
Unchanged: SPI, IND, ORG, IMP
You are making a good point about Philosophical and I add something to Philosophical. When it comes to Imperialistic I doubt a higher production bonus will cut it. with 50% a settler becomes an almost easy double whip and this alone is a strong bonus so far. The one thing people often forget about Imperialistic is the added militaristic effect in the great general. In fact this makes Imperialistic the third military related trait. Therefore I think the stable is justified as a building bonus. Even historically you could make the case that big empires relied on the horse as a useful animal to mankind. And hey Genghis Khan is Imperialistic My case for the Customs House is a lot weaker and the main reason I added it is for the familiarity to RtR.
(May 25th, 2020, 04:52)chumchu Wrote: AGG: The most thematic economic bonus would be to give AGG cheaper unit maintenance. Either by giving them more free units or giving a percentage discount. This does mean a schema change to insert a function in traitinfo which is why I did not do it for my mod. If you could do it I would recommend between 25% and 50% discount on unit maintenance. That way you can keep something very close to the earlier RTR-versions of the traits which in my opinion was very close to the smallest possible changes to make all traits reasonably balanced. (granary to PRO, eco bonus to AGG, even faster workers for EXP)
AGG: An eco bonus. Either- 50 % unit maintenance or -25% number of cities maintenance or 1 wealth per city.
I already said some things about AGG in a previous post and it will definitly lose the worker bonus again. If I go with this I would prefer the unit maintenance. My main problem with this is that it only helps you economically, when you already build the units or are in a hot war with massive units. What it does not is help you get those units on the field in the first place. This is why I proposed the happiness on the barracks and the production bonus for jails. Especially the jails bonus fits well with Aggressive and helps in the later wars. For the next version of CtH I will go with the happiness on barracks and jails as its easier to implement right now.
(May 25th, 2020, 04:52)chumchu Wrote: PHI: 150% GP rate.
This is certainly an option. Some additional options that fit the theme of great person and science
Production bonus for Observatory: Gives them something more interesting to do
Remove the library from Creative and give it to Phi: An option I won't go with as the library gives Creative something interesting to do while also staying true to BtS.
Now the Observatory is interesting, but doesn't add that much to the trait. I probably go with the +150%.
Lastly I agree that SPI, IND and ORG don't need changes.
(May 25th, 2020, 02:25)Old Harry Wrote: Would making the terrace store only 40% of food offset the culture advantage? Or perhaps it could lose the health bonus?
I almost missed your post. Sorry for that.
I would not want to go with 40% of food as it messes more with the overall slavery system and provides potential for awkward rounding errors, but I have to admit I haven't checked if that is the case.
Losing the health bonus does not hurt it in the beginning, but in the late game you will dearly miss those health bonuses. I'm not so sure about.
One additional thing that is possible is to reduce the culture even further to 0.5 for example, because culture works with fractions. This is also the case why the Ethiopian UB can rather be considered a 1.25 culture monument instead of a 1 culture building.
What if they stayed as is at 60h +2 culture, but required Masonry as an additional prereq? Makes the snowballing window start a bit later, but wouldn't change how they play or feel outside of that, and there's precedent for builds requiring multiple techs in The Great Lighthouse. Too small of a nerf?
This is only the changelog compared to version 1.1. All differences between versions are in yellow. If you prefer a clean changelog just look at the second post of this thread.
Changelog version 1.2
Tile Yields and Improvements
Lumbermills: Available at Machinery, +1 commerce, +1 commerce with Electricity, Lumber mills now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers
Forest preserves: +1 commerce, now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers like above
Game Mechanics
Drafting: Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft. A city must now end a draft at size 6 instead of size 5 (So size 8 to draft a rifle, size 7 to draft a musket).
AP Resolutions: Declare War (on a non-member), Force Peace (between two members), Religious victory, and Assign City are no longer eligible resolution actions.
Fail-gold: You never get fail-gold if you also completed the wonder somewhere else (so no National Wonder fail-gold, or doubling up on a wonder to guarantee yourself a paycheck. The game still informs you that you received "0 gold" from your hammers).
Toroidal Maintenance: Now return city maintenance as if the map were Cylindrical.
Inflation: Inflation still occurs with increasing turn numbers, but in addition if (All techs you discovered / All available techs) * Maximum turn numbers is higher then the current turn, inflation takes the calculated turn from techs as a base for the calculation.
War Weariness: War weariness declines faster after the war ended
Religion spread: Spreading religions via missionaries to your own cities never fails
Global warming: Removed
Espionage: Active missions removed
Espionage: 'No espionage' option fixed, see bugfix section for more details
Techs
Agriculture: Cost 40 instead of 60
Mysticism: Cost 60 instead of 50
Hunting: Cost 50 instead of 40
Fishing: Cost 50 instead of 40
Metal Casting: Cost 300 instead of 450
Alphabet: Cost 250 instead of 300
Mysticism: Now adds +1 commerce to Palace
Astronomy: Add Paper as another prerequisite
Refrigeration: lose +1 sea movement
Buildings
Castle: Obsoletes at Corporation instead of Economics
Customs House: Cost 120 instead of 180, also applies to all UBs based on Customs House (Feitoria)
National Wonders
Red Cross: Cost 200 instead of 600
West Point: Cost 550 instead of 800, +5 XP instead of 4, Requires a level 5 unit instead of 6
Wonders
Resource modifiers: All wonders that had +100% production with a specific resource now only have +50% production with that resource.
Great Lighthouse: +1 trade route in coastal cities instead of +2
Statue of Zeus: Obsolete at Gunpowder
Unit mechanics
Flanking: Flanking strength (used to calculate damage from flanking strikes) of all units reduced by 50%.
Circumnavigation: +1 trade route in all coastal cities instead of +1 movement and can be achieved by everybody
Coastal blockade: only blocks trade routes, blockaded cities can still work blocked tiles.
Land units
Scout: +200% vs animals instead of +100%, no tech required, that way everybody starts with a scout, movement 1 (+1 gained with Hunting)
Swordsman: +20% city attack instead of +10%, also applies to UUs Jaguar Warrior and Gallic Swordsman
War elephant: Strength 7 instead of 8
Airship: Cannot see submarines
ICBM: Cost 1500 instead of 500
Tactical Nuke: Cost 750 instead of 250
Nukes: Nukes never create fallout on tiles containing strategic resources.
Naval units
Work Boat: no longer require any tech (still require Fishing to work water tiles).
Privateer: Required techs are Gunpowder and Astronomy instead of Chemistry and Astronomy
Submarine and Attack Submarine: Flanking vs Transports
Corporations
Tech: Discovering the corresponding tech for a corporation earns you an executive of that corporation. To settle the HQ you still need a great person.
Sid's Sushi Co.: Food bonus per resource 0.25 instead of 0.5 and culture bonus per resource 1 instead of 2, maintenance costs halfed
Mining Inc.: Hammer bonus per resource 0.75 instead of 1, maintenance costs 3/4 of original
Civics
Serfdom: +1 hammer on Farms and Watermills, +1 commerce on Windmills
Emancipation: lose unhappiness bonus, gain +10% Hammer in all cities
State Property: Lose +10% Hammer in all cities
Environmentalism: Available at Biology instead of Medicine, remove Corporation costs
Vassalage: Medium cost instead of High
Traits
Financial: +1 commerce on land tiles that have 3+ commerce, +1 commerce on water tiles that have 2+ commerce
Expansive: Remove Worker bonus, add +100% production of Aqueduct and Grocer
Creative: Reduce Library bonus from 100% to 35%to 50%, Remove production bonus for Colosseum
Charismatic: +100% production of Monument, +35% production of Library, +100% production of Colosseum
Imperialistic: +100% production of Customs House and Stable
Aggressive: +25% production of worker+1 happiness on Barracks and +100% production of Jails
No City Trading: Unable to trade cities, cities appear untradable in diplomacy screen
No Map Trading: Maps appear untradable in diplomacy screen
No Wonder resource modifiers: Resources do not affect world wonder or world project construction speeds.
No Immediate Peace (Peace treaty negotiations are only possible after 5 turns)
True AI Diplo: All single player trade items are also available in MP
BUG integration
BUG fully integrated
New BUG feature "Grid for graphs"
New BUG feature improved Active advisor screen
Cosmetic changes
Adjusted placement of techs in the tech tree, so that the Paper requirement for Astronomy looks nicer
Additional bug fixes
The No Espionage game option now works properly:
GSpy points are converted into Great Merchant points.
Espionage no longer gets converted into culture.
Cultural expansion now happens at normal values.
Spies cannot be built.
Graphs are always visible on contact.
Workboats no longer count as military units for upkeep. They're also no longer considered a military unit so a War Academy will not speed their production.
Trade route turn order bug.
Foreign trade route cities lost permanently when your city using those routes is destroyed (fix is taken from BTS unofficial patch).
Build culture double production.
Build wealth/research/culture + production automation double production.
Proposed trades including cities, where the cities no longer exist to be trades, are not cancelled (note: I consider this a bug because proposed trades are already cancelled if a player lacks the requisite e.g. resources/gold. could be considered not a bug).
Production decay counter on a type of build (e.g. axeman) is not reset after completing one if the next item in the queue is of the same type (fix is taken from BTS unofficial patch).
Feature growth/disappearance rates, and bonus discovery (mine pop) rates, do not scale with game speed.
Diplomacy Pausing: Diplomacy windows do not occur on game login whilst the game is paused.
Autosaves: Autosaves are generated at login and log out; log out saves are saved to a folder specified within the global defines XML file. Default location is C:\temp.
Maximum player number increased to 52
Additional alterations have been made to enable hosting of games on the pitboss server belonging to Zulan. These changes are detailed here
CvCity::init - Building a city on floodplains no longer removes floodplains, they'll still be there if city is destroyed (from Mongoose SDK)
CvCity::getProductionModifier (three versions of this function) - Changed to allow mods to create negative production modifiers (thanks NotSoGood)
CvCity::setBuildingHealthChange - Fixed several copy/paste and logic bugs affecting bonus building health from events, especially after city conquest (thanks Emperor Fool)
CvCity::setBuildingHappyChange - Fixed several logic bugs affecting bonus building health from events, especially after city conquest
CvCity - Added function getNumActiveWorldWonders()
CvCity::PopOrder - Fixed issue introduced by prior attempt to fix handling of buildings with player limits. Building classes which set iMaxPlayerInstances should now work correctly regardless of what iExtraPlayerInstances is set to. (thanks ztjal)
CvCityAI::AI_yieldValue - Fixed issue causing city governor and AI to heavily weight food when building gold or any other form of commerce. Produced unexpected and poor results for human player, did not help AI either.
CvCityAI::AI_doHurry - Fixed several bugs where AI would incorrectly think it was getting a great deal on a pop/gold rush when it was actually doing the other kind of rush. (thanks Pep)
CvPlayerAI::AI_isFinancialTrouble, CvCityAI::AI_updateBestBuild, and CvPlayerAI::AI_getMinFoundValue - Fixed bug in calculating expenses when AI has negative gold per turn
CvCityAI::AI_cityThreat - Fixed bug when AI is running crush strategy, wrong int was divided
CvCityAI::AI_neededDefenders - Improved efficiency and minor tweaks
CvCityAI::AI_chooseProduction - Fixed bug reducing AI production of workers, and a similar issue for barb players producing too many
CvDLLButtonPopup::launchFreeColonyPopup - Removed cities whose liberation player you are at war with from popup.
CvPlayer and CvDLLWidgetData - Fixed bug where you could acquire unlimited free techs from Oracle or Liberalism (thanks Emperor Fool)
isPotentialEnemy in CvGameCoreUtils - Fixed bug leading to AI launching invasions when unable to declare war, troops eventually got bounced when war was declared
CvGameTextMgr::setBuildingHelp - Fixed issue in mods with display of exposing spies text for buildings which lower espionage defense (thanks Afforess)
CvGameTextMgr (many places) - Fixed issues where unhappiness and unhealthiness from civics or buildings would incorrectly show up as -(unhappy face) instead of +(unhappy face) in several circumstances. (Thanks EmporerFool, Grave, Afforess)
CvGameTextMgr - Game will now properly display info for buildings which generate unhappiness in an area or globally, or produce state religion unhappiness (should these ever come up in mods)
CvPlayer::canFound - Changed handling of founding on water tiles so that Python callback has final say if it is turned on
CvPlayer::removeBuildingClass - Fixed issue with removing buildings when building class was maxed out for some mods (thanks EF)
CvPlayer::canTradeItem - You can now ask AI members of your own team to change religion or civics (thanks denev)
CvPlayerAI::AI_civicValue - Fixed crash bug in multi-player simultaneous turns games created by necessary re-timing of AI_doSplit (thanks to TheOnlyDJCat for debugging help)
CvPlayerAI::AI_conquerCity - Fixed bug where cityAcquiredAndKept event reported wrong player in some circumstances (thanks Maniac)
CvPlayerAI::AI_targetGold - Fixed bug causing AI to not bother with budgeting for expenses for first 40 turns of scenarios and advanced start games
CvPlayerAI::AI_foundValue - Added missing division for iClaimThrehsold (thanks denev)
CvPlayerAI::AI_unitValue - Stealth boats do not make good escorts since they often don't defend, so AI is now very unlikely to use them as escorts for transports.
CvPlayerAI::AI_getHealthWeight - Fixed bug for mods where civics with negative iExtraHealth were evaluated incorrectly (thanks phungus420)
CvPlayerAI::AI_getHappinessWeight - Fixed bug for mods where civics with negative happiness effects from troops, largest cities, or war weariness were evaluated incorrectly
CvPlayerAI::AI_bestPlotEspionage - relevant weights are 0, +- 50, +- 100, so comparison for Agg AI should be < 51 instead of < 50
CvPlayerAI::AI_changePeacetimeTradeValue and CvPlayerAI::AI_changePeacetimeGrantValue - AIs you haven't met yet will no longer get angry at you for trading with their worst enemy (thanks Sephi)
CvPlayerAI::AI_doDiplo - Fixed issue where team is sneak attack ready but hasn't declared war, AI would still demand tribute. If other team accepted, it blocked war declaration for 10 turns but AI still launched invasion and was then bounced when it could eventually declare.
CvPlayerAI::AI_getStrategyHash - Fixed incorrect counting of destroyers as mobile anti-air
CvPlayerAI::AI_getTotalFloatingDefendersNeeded - Fixed poor decision by AI if it has captured one or two cities on someone else's continent, it would minimally defend its new cities
CvPlayerAI::AI_getStrategyHash - Fixed several bugs where player ID was used where team ID was intended
CvPlayerAI::AI_targetCityValue - Fixed issues with valuation of cities with inactive world wonders, multi-holy-cities
CvPlayerAI::AI_commerceWeight - Improved valuation of generating culture in human player cities when culture bar is > 50% (ie, player probably going for cultural victory)
CvPlayerAI::AI_bestTech - Fixed potential rare crash bug in mods where units with no transport capacity can upgrade to units with transport capacity (thanks Afforess)
CvPlayerAI::AI_missionaryValue - Fixed copy and past bug causing overvaluation of missionaries for AIs going for cultural victory early in the game.
CvPlayerAI::AI_unitValue - Fixed potential crash bug in looking up AI_unitValue for UNITAI_MISSIONARY units without passing a valid CvArea*
CvSelectionGroup::continueMission - Fixed issue causing units with multiple orders to forget their later orders under certain circumstances. (thanks Pep)
CvTeam::doTurn - Added barbarian passive tech fix from Mongoose SDK
CvTeam::shareCounters - Fixed bug causing inappropriate overflow research and effectively free techs when forming a Permanent Alliance
CvTeam::addTeam - Fixed bug where, if civs A and B join in a permanent alliance, they get the max of A and B's espionage points against C but C just keeps its point against A and loses its points to B if that's higher
CvTeam::shareCounters - Fixed bug in permanent alliances when No Tech Brokering is turned on, where a civ would often become unable to trade a tech they had researched after entering a permanent alliance.
CvTeamAI::AI_doWar - use bFinancesProLimitedWar for limited war calc instead of max war version
CvTeamAI::AI_calculateAreaAIType - Fixed incorrect index usage (thanks cephalo)
CvUnit::convert - Fixed potential issue in mods where units with transport capacity might upgrade to units without (from Mongoose SDK)
CvUnit::shouldLoadOnMove - Fixed issue with all terrain land units moving onto water tiles with transports in them (from Mongoose SDK)
CvUnit::canMoveInto - Removed strange behavior where setting a unit to be unable to enter a terrain type would be overridden by features (forrest, fallout) (thanks TC01)
CvUnit::isIntruding - Kept 3.17 unofficial patch feature that vassal spies are never caught in master's territory
CvUnit::canAirDefend - Land units which are on transports can no longer defend against air attacks (from Mongoose SDK)
CvUnit::collateralCombat - Kept 3.17 unofficial patch feature which allows mods to enables barrage promotions for collateral damage units
CvUnit::canSpread - Moved Python cannot spread callback to end of function where it belongs, will speed up those mods which use this callback a little
CvUnit::canRangeStrikeAt - Added check for whether target plot is visible (thanks God-Emperor)
CvUnitAI::AI_spreadReligionAirlift and CvUnitAI::AI_spreadCorporationAirlift - AI will no longer airlift multiple of the same kind of missionary or executive to the same target spread city on the same turn
CvUnitAI::AI_paradrop - fixed bug with valuation of terrain bonuses causing paradrops to avoid bonuses in some circumstances when intention is clearly to encourage landing on bonuses and pillaging
CvUnitAI::AI_settleMove - fixed bug when settler cannot reach a city site in an area (blocked by mountains, other player). Caused settler to wait infinitely in city instead of loading into transport.
CvUnitAI::AI_assaultSeaMove - Fixed bug where unit type was used when unit AI type was intended
CvUnitAI::AI_specialSeaTransportMissionary - Fixed minor bug in valuation for executives
Some explanation of the recent changes. I already talked at length about most trait changes just a few posts ago, so I won't bother you again.
(May 25th, 2020, 16:40)Charriu Wrote:
Hunting: Cost 50 instead of 40
Fishing: Cost 50 instead of 40
I already said that I'm a bit disappointed with the value of Fishing. Now with a little bit more beakers in it the Fishing civs have at least something to look for. Thanks to the work boats being available immediately you won't be at a disadvantage compared to BtS. At the same time I reduced the Hunting cost to 40 so that you have more of choice of which tech you use for AH and also to preserve the 40/50/60 beakers distribution.
(May 25th, 2020, 16:40)Charriu Wrote: Arabia UU: Camel Archer starts with March
Arabia with its Mysticism/The Wheel start still felt a little bit too weak. Now previously I had something in mind like +10% additional withdraw, but March actually helps the UU more. With March not only do you heal during your movement but your units also heal after they attacked and/or withdrew from combat.
(May 25th, 2020, 16:40)Charriu Wrote: Babylon UB: Replace Granary; available at Agriculture; only +1 health, Makes city act as a source of fresh water
Here I'm going back to the colosseum replacement from BtS. But with two additions. The health remains reduced to +1, because of the second bonus of acting as a source of water. I already talked about that new bonus in my previous posts, so no reason to repeat myself.
(May 25th, 2020, 16:40)Charriu Wrote: Byzantium UB: Replace Colosseum instead of Theatre, +1 happy from horse, +1 happy per 10 culture instead of 20add +2 artist slots
Kill the fluff. My recent implementation did not really do much to justify so many words around the UB. Really the only thing that was bothering me in the first place with the UB was that it was missing those 2 artist slots, which you will need if you try for a cultural victory. It also does feel good to play a UB which is in some ways worse then the replacing building.
Voted one of the worst civs in the recent survey, this is my way of giving them some additional benefits. Granted its a bit out there and you could call it uninspired, but until I come up with something better, this makes them better in the beginning.
(May 25th, 2020, 16:40)Charriu Wrote: Korea UU: Targets melee first outside of cities
Korea is actually fine as it is right now. It already got a buff with Mysticism and the only other important thing it would need, would be a cost reduction for their UB, which I may provide at a latter time.
(May 25th, 2020, 14:34)El Grillo Wrote: What if they stayed as is at 60h +2 culture, but required Masonry as an additional prereq? Makes the snowballing window start a bit later, but wouldn't change how they play or feel outside of that, and there's precedent for builds requiring multiple techs in The Great Lighthouse. Too small of a nerf?
While it is a nerf you are right that it only is a small nerf. With Inca starting with Mysticism it's also not a big issue to tech to Masonry. I doubt that this alone won't solve the issue especially if it remains at +1 culture.
I think the the problem with the culture on the granary is that it further feeds the snowball. There are 4 things a new city needs - the settler, a worker, pop borders and a granary (in almost all cases, a granary is built). Having the granary pop borders is huge.
I think that if the terrace did something other than provide culture, it would be a good effect. Maybe provide an extra happy for gold.