(May 4th, 2024, 02:11)haphazard1 Wrote: The bugs have been busy building factories at their ultra-poor planet; when I looked at the first turn of the set, they had 25+ built there already. Makes me wonder if they get some bonus? (Besides being bugs, I mean.)
Though probably a mistake for them, this actually isn't as bad as it is in MoO: I believe in Remnants, BC spent from the reserve do not receive the bonus or penalty for the world on which they're spent. So if you keep a UP world reserve-doubled every turn, you're in effect paying 15 BC from the UP world plus (thanks to reserve spending being halved before going to the treasury) 10BC from a developed world for each factory (assuming no IIT) instead of paying 30BC all from the UP - or 15 from the UP and 30 from a developed world! - for each MoO factory. In MoO, the payback horizon would probably be past the end of the game, but if we handled a UP that way with our current technology, at least if we're still paying II9 costs for the first (2 x maxpop) factories and refrain from wasting money on UP refitting, each reserve-boosted fac would pay for itself in just over 30 turns. That's not good, but what the bugs are doing doesn't start to look terrible until we invade the planet and take all those hard-built factories from them before the planet has produced anything but natural population growth and those still-just-fac-building factories for them. (Whereas whenever we stop spending on factories on our poor world, it'll be generating dozens of RP every turn in addition to our faster natural population growth!)
Ok, staring at the save. The most immediately useful tech payoff (controlled toxic) is minimum 12 turns away before it even gets to percentages, so I'm sticking with refit for now. Looking at the maths, it'll indeed take 900 total BC to refit the cap (for example), but having put 2 turns into it already at our current rate of about 220/turn, we're pretty close to getting to the point that new factories will get built, which'll be 5-6 turns or so? So assuming controlled toxic would pop after ~6 turns in percentages and assuming all worlds max at about the same rate, we're going from getting it in 18 turns to getting it in 24 if our research rate doesn't increase at all, bearing in mind that it definitely will. If any planet maxes its non-refit stuff I'm going to put it into tech for now, but everything that's already going through refit should have enough spent such that it'll be worth it to finish it out soon.
Also, this is the part where I reiterate how I'd rather have somewhat angry neighbours who I know about vs neutral neighbours who we know nothing about - if neither AI is doing much in planetology, we don't have to rush for controlled toxic. And, fun fact, checking the races screen to set this up shows that our neighbours are at war! So even if the spying does go badly, they'll both be too tied up with each other to deal with us (hopefully). I also send some ships around so that we have military vessels sitting above all the hostile worlds, so that unescorted colony ships can't claim them, which'll slow down potential poaching further. And finally I end turn.
Here's what they have in terms of tech:
Controlled tundra is annoying, but the only world that opens up to the bugs is Parath, which they definitely don't have the range for. So for now, we don't need to rush. And this turn Sssla builds its first non-refit factory.
Bugs yell at me about sabotage with a "false confession" and suddenly everything I've ever seen from xenophobic spying makes sense - in the past, what I thought was an endless chain of framings actually used this "false confession" notation instead of being listed as framing, i.e. this is the screen that you get when they turn a hiding spy into a sabotage confession. In the past, I was just watching all of my hiding spies get caught normally and I never stopped sending them, thinking it was someone else's.. dammit! At least now I know what this looks like.
Anyways, literally nothing happens after that until turn 97 where Meklonar ships show up at Toxic Taenth in the north - their only tech that I saw was terraforming +10 so they'd have to have gotten 2 tiers to be anywhere meaningful, so I don't really care. Learn from this that the Battery ship carries 2 missiles. Refits finish everywhere this same turn, and now we're putting 281/turn into planetology, which'll have us catch back up fully to what we missed in ~20 turns - definitely delays controlled toxic by a bit (108 old finish turn for estimated toxic research if no IRC3 stuff, at prior research rate from this point we'd be done at 115, with the new one it should be around 109) but we'll also be able to build the ships slightly faster, so it's not actually behind at all. I notice the bots are willing to offer terraforming +10 for improved eco (old unattractive offer) or II9 - on the one hand, the bots need to build a lot of factories, on the other hand we know they could theoretically be researching II8 rn so it's tempting. Since it's close to the end of my tenure I leave it. And, the bugs, uh..
So, I've *never* seen the AI ever put death spores on any design in this game, it seems they're much less warcrime-happy than in the original. Therefore I take this immediately since it's effectively free, and start building a Tuncol2 ship for Parath on the next turn (tech trades don't go through until you click end turn for some reason, all tech must be acquired at the same time). Mesarth also finishes its non-refit factories by this point, so is put on research until we get at least II8 (hopefully II7 is in the tree for that instead). Unfortunately I somehow got planets mixed up and built the colony ship as Sssla rather than Heralth so it'll be a turn delayed in transit, finished production on turn 100. An overview:
Overall, successful set! Annoyance of building new factories is largely over, and so following sessions should be more fun for others, not that this one wasn't - as much as it's not very dynamic, building factories and terraforming worlds fills me with happiness lol. Terraforming trade with the bots is still an option, it felt a lot more marginal than the Controlled Tundra trade so didn't want to do it myself. Relations with the bugs are now slightly below neutral, so the spy false confession was painful but not gameending, and the war between our "friends" continues. The only frustrating point at all is my maths for when we can expect techs to land not lining up, I think it's finally right.
I don't think the bugs and machines were at war when I checked the races early in my turn set, although I would have to go back and look at the earlier save to be sure. Hopefully they will distract each other from us, and from grabbing worlds we want.
I am not good at handling the spying in RotP yet. I think you are right and I should have done more with that during my turns. We will just have to deal with any diplo penalties.
The trade for Tundra looks good to me. We can now grab that barren world, and as RefSteel pointed out it improves our workers' output as well by a small amount. I have not seen an AI in RotP use death spores yet either, but the manual mentions that ruthless and militaristic AIs do not penalize using them as much as others. So maybe those types would be willing to use them? MOO AIs loved sporing planets, but hopefully this will not bite us.
Terraforming+10...tempting to trade for it, with as many planets as we have. If we get a terrforming option in the next tier after Controlled Toxic, it would take quite a while before it would be finished. I would probably go for it, but I can see arguments the other way.
Hey, I never claimed my attitude towards spying is the right one, it's just the one that I have. Part of a succession game is learning better ways to do things, and the other part is simply observing different playstyles that are not necessarily better, just different.
(May 4th, 2024, 02:55)RefSteel Wrote: Though probably a mistake for them, this actually isn't as bad as it is in MoO: I believe in Remnants, BC spent from the reserve do not receive the bonus or penalty for the world on which they're spent.
That's correct. This is intended to remove the infinite BC exploit. Reserve still works, but it doesn't benefit extra on Rich/Ultra-Rich worlds.
The upside is that reserve works better on Poor/Ultra-Poor planets.
Looks great, Dp101! I'll have a look at the save later today, and hopefully post a report by the end of the weekend. And I'll probably use an entirely different strategy for spying and research than I did in my first turn-set; I'm still learning how these mechanics work! (I do think I won't bother Hide-spying the Klackons ... but like last time, I might try proper Espionage on them!)
(May 4th, 2024, 11:10)Ray F Wrote: That's correct. This is intended to remove the infinite BC exploit. Reserve still works, but it doesn't benefit extra on Rich/Ultra-Rich worlds.
The upside is that reserve works better on Poor/Ultra-Poor planets.
Yeah, I definitely like your (RotP's) way of handling the reserve, Ray F - it makes for more interesting, less clear-cut decisions about how to manage planets - but there is no "infinite BC exploit" in MoO. The self-feeding UR effect you're referring to, which has a (small) start-up cost, opportunity costs, and risks involved, and can be used by the AI, can increase the maximum net annual output of a Ultra-Rich world by one third. Not infinite - not exponential - not geometric - just a flat 1/3 of what you'd be getting each turn without using it at all. (It can "look" a little better than that for non-Silicoid races early on because it's 1/3 of the pre-cleanup value, but it still isn't game-breaking.)
That said, yes, the effect is silly, and it's too easy to get once you have a UR at all, and not very intuitive, and the costs/risks are low enough in comparison with the benefits (and the AI so inconsistent about using it) that it's basically just a bonus for a player with a UR world - too much of a no-brainer unless you choose to eschew it as a possible exploit. I'm glad Remnants eliminated it, while creating more options and choices for the development of other types of worlds as well!
Not that it’s super relevant given that we’ll find out your choice around it soonish, but RefSteel, are you planning on taking the terraforming +10 for II9 deal with the meklonar? It’s the kind of super marginal but potentially impactful decision that I feel is interesting to discuss, so I’m curious about your thoughts on the matter.
(May 4th, 2024, 02:45)Dp101 Wrote: Wait, population becomes more efficient with better planetology?? How have I never come across this before...
I know; there's a lot of information spread out everywhere about MoO, and even Remnants doesn't make all of it visible all the time. According to the OSG, the plantetology bonus is 0.03 BC per pop per tech level - so with Death Spores bringing us to 10, each pop provides 0.5 + (10 x 0.03) = 0.8 BC per pop. (Tech level is more complicated than "your highest level tech" but that's an okay first approximation.) RotP seems to retain this rule, based on the numbers I'm seeing in-game.
Quote:the stuff about IRC in RotP definitely matches observations at least, regarding all planets building up to 2x pop before going through refit of everything at once (which happily means that IRC3 from an artifacts world on turn 3 doesn't actually end your game).
Ah - cool! I'll have to think about all the impacts of that some more....
And also: I've...
GOT IT!
Inherited Turn Report:
(Newtvember 18th)
Breaking news today as the Sssslauran Conclave election resulted in a major upset by the narrowest of voting margins! The odds-on favorite, a one-time incumbent now nearer to two centuries of age than to one, may have lost the decisive swing votes with a now-infamous campaign interview which included the grumbling confession, "I never asked for another term as Emperor or Head Mucky Muck or Conclavistador In Chief or whatever everybody's supposed to be calling it this week. It was just the rest of the old guard claiming they needed me. They don't need an emperor like this old bundle of scales. By the time this coming term is over, if I make it that long, I will have lived in three different centuries - by any of our calendars. What we need is somebody who has some remote idea of what the galaxy is like today, and what we can do about it. If you ask me."
Following the election, the Conclave will be led by another teal-colored lizard: Newly-elected Refssss was not yet hatched form an egg that had not yet been laid when his opponent last won an election, and his success comes partly because and partly in spite of a youthful reputation for iconoclasm and an air of mystery: Eager, energetic, and focused on his work, he avoids the public spotlight to such an extent that his campaign has been run mostly at second hand while he concentrates on devising creative though often impractical and sometimes impracticable schemes to present in quiet, often highly-technical language to fellow lawmakers. Cornered for an interview immediately after his election, the young, inexperienced Refssss thrashed his tail nervously and said, "I'll do my best to figure this out. But it seems like what the Conclave wants is change."
It's easy to see why. In the course of the several decades, a combination of questionable research priorities, inefficient industrial spending, errors of timing, and the construction and maintenance of a rapidly-obsoleting, passive combat fleet has cost the Conclave much of the advantage they had built up in the previous century, permitting the machine-people of Meklon to nearly catch them in most important categories while the insectile hivemind of Kholdan pulled back ahead - in spite of those rivals being lately embroiled in what to date has been a totally unproductive war. The status of the seven other empires rumored to control the remainder of the galaxy meanwhile can only be guessed at, with one or more potentially outstripping even the hivemind in knowledge and power. Numerous Conclave power brokers are indeed calling for change, demanding that their own favored policies be pushed through immediately, insisting that only those will establish a decisive advantage for the Conclave sufficiently quickly. If indeed the need for change is in the air however, Refssss might have been expected to win more handily ... if he hadn't been so new to the galaxy as to leave many - perhaps including Refssss himself - wondering whether he actually had any idea of how to run an empire - or, of course, a Conclave - in the galaxy to which he was so new.
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(Iguanuary 29th)
Captain's Private Log: I received word from Admiral Ssassafrass at 0700 hours that we're to head coreward to Garuga immediately. I asked who our relief would be at the Shuvirth system, and she said not to wait for a relief ship; if the Meks haven't scouted the burning fireball of a planet we've been orbiting yet, they're welcome to do it now. I didn't bother to ask who'd relieve the long-range laser ship at Apophis whenever the lab lizards turn out stable irridium fuel so it can go off and explore; I knew the answer would be classified even if it wasn't probably nobody. All I have are my own orders, but there's enough back-channel scuttlebutt around the fleet that I get the sense of a general movement coreward for just about everybody. Just about: Our fighters and scouts aren't going. From what I hear, every one of them is getting broken down for parts.
I've heard the idea is that we can have some quick little Brookesia 2.0 fighters to take their place - faster everywhere, and with better targeting systems - but I'm not betting much on them. They'd still be armed with lasers, and if it takes too much longer before our ships can mount those ion cannons that are supposed to be so advanced and everything, we're going to have a lot more problems than some modern eggshell laser fighters can possibly handle. We might build some, as a token gesture, but I hope we never have to. Really, I think this whole move is just a gesture toward modernizing the fleet: Warp-1 starships are so slow, they just get in the way.
One other thing I'm hearing: While we're all headed coreward, we've got civilians going the opposite way. Sure, that makes sense with Parath out on the rim and transports heading out in advance so people will be able to land there, especially with so many leaving Avantador, poor and dry enough that maybe nobody wants to live there anyway. There is supposedly a war going on between the bugs and chines though, and their only realistic point of contact is near the core. I'm not saying command is worried about spill-over or anything - but I'm keeping my eyes open anyway. With this coreward move, there's a chance we could see action - before our missile cruiser hits the scrap heap too.
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(Mauremysch 12th)
Dr. Vrazssoom, for the Nuclear Propulsion Laboratory: Thank you, Dr. Ssimposius. I think we can all agree that irridium fuel is the most critical technology to our immediate future as a species. It alone can enable our scoutcraft - and perhaps long-range colony ships - to to seek worlds beyond Dominion space. It is a necessary component of any hope of projecting power deeper into Dominion or Hive territory; and it is the only chance we have of discovering other races beyond our immediate neighbors in the galaxy - or of building stepping stones toward them. That's why I'm proud to announce that we are on the verge of a breakthrough, potentially by year's end, though it would likely take ten years or more without additional funding.
Dr. Ssnapdragon, for the Sssslan University Department of Environmental Studies: Well, I do appreciate the value of your field, and I hope you get that breakthrough really soon, but we're about surrounded by hostile worlds where we still can't survive - in spite of our outgoing leader's brilliant coup in bringing home the secret of living on Parath! We're so close to finding a way to survive on all these worlds, we can almost taste its scent on the air, but we need a lot more help before we can get there. It'll be the most advanced technology we know once we work it out, so there's still a pretty good road ahead. You're doing so well, you might get the job done right away, which is beautiful - but if we're going to catch up to our delicious arthropoid neighbors again, planetology funding is going to be the key.
Dr. Rockliff, for the Heralth Materials Engineering Consortium: I'm not going to pretend my work is quite as vital to our immediate future as either of yours, doctors, but consider the effects of duralloy manufacturing on the development of long-range starships - particularly with the new, advanced bases you're working on, Dr. Ssnapdragon - even when it's not used on the ships directly. Consider all the improvements to starship engineering that will be possible once we unlock its secrets! And we're so close! A few more years and a little luck could bring us home on this!
Dr. Ssniktslash, for the Avantador Weapons Testing Facility: Listen, I know we're hoping not to need to fight anybody and our neighbors are at war with each other, but what you have to remember is they have no colonies within transport range of each other! If they fight each other at all, it'll be at the little unexplored red star by the core unless they're willing to cram reserve fuel tanks on their combat fleets and try to glass each other's planets from space! So they're building up their fleets without any actual combat attrition, with us standing in between, and our best beam ships are pewpewing with lasers. We're so desperate for firepower, we actually have five missile cruisers flying around trying to accomplish something - mostly with overstuffed racks of hyper-V rockets! Just a smidge more funding will give us a chance at developing ion cannons, and then at least if we have to, we'll be able to build ships with teeth!
Dr. Ssyberscale, for the Jeruth University EECS department: So yeah, I get all of that, and I know it'll be a while before we have the electronic countermeasures we're theoretically working on right now - and then a lot longer than that before we can get some kind of technology we actually care about, frankly. But consider this:
We're not even trying to get a spy into Hive space - not yet anyway - because their computer technology was known to be more advanced seven years ago than ours is today, and we've let them get so much more powerful than us that risking a war against them right now, while they're stalled against the Meklar as Dr. Ssniktslash so wisely points out, is unappetizing to nearly everybody. We're reduced to spying on the machine Dominion, hoping to pick up some of their computer technology, with all the risks that entails - although at least our chances of a breakthrough there have to be better than for the ion cannons this year. So, yes, I understand why our funding is being suspended, and the field mechanics teams' too - but don't let it stagnate forever. We can't afford to fall too far behind for too long here!
Dr. Pleesstaybak, for the Tessith Field Mechanics Laboratory: But ... but we're close! We're kind of close, like as close as Dr. Rockliff - and ... and shields are pretty!
Dr. Ssnapdragon: The main idea I think we all should carry home here is this: Don't do things by half measures! If four new planetology laboratories are worth more to us right now than five new electronics labs, like now, don't make tentative little shifts in spending and leave the rest where it is; commit to planetology, and then you can fund electronics again when you need it. And if the five electronics labs are better than four planetology labs, fund the EECS department right to the one-sixth union mandate - or beyond if four EECS labs are better than four of another kind of lab that's already over the mandate.
Dr. Vrazssoom: Also that propulsion and planetology are of special importance, especially thanks to our exceptional capabilities in your particular field.
Dr. Ssnapdragon: Yes, that too.
Dr. Pleesstaybak: But shields are pretty!
Full report hopefully tomorrow night. (Hopefully!)
(May 2nd, 2024, 15:04)rgp151 Wrote: Just curious (as I haven't loaded the file and am not playing), when you said you needed to get range tech to settle some planets, I assume you mean they are within the range of Extended Fuel Tanks, but you can't reach them without. If so, then I would typically take Sub-lights in that scenario and just build a Colony Ship with Extended Fuel Tanks. Either bite the bullet and just build a Huge ship, OR get the techs needed to miniaturize enough to fit it all on a Large, which I think you get once you have around Tech level 10 in Construction and Planetology (like you've researched your second tier in Construction and Planetology). I'm not sure exactly what it takes to be able to fit it all on a Large, but anyway, that's how I usually go about it.
We have warp 2 and looking at the map I thought it better to take the range before going for warp 3 which was our only chance of advancing the tech tree. We are very close to being boxed in and LR huge designs (I checked in game before making the choice) are prohibitively expensive at the moment.
Travelling on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam.
