[SPOILERS - PBEM17] Kyan Does Dallas. The Orange Sensation.

[oledavy]

GP Due out of Jerusalem in twelve turns: ~40% GE, ~60% GS

Was planning on spending him in a golden age, am not sure about the civic swap yet. Good point about two turns in anarchy, would be a good idea to put off spreading Buddhism until I have a golden age going.

Possible Method:

Current Civics
Hereditary Rule
Barbarism
Slavery
Decentralization
Paganism

Golden Age Begin
Hereditary Rule
Bureaucracy
Slavery
Decentralization
Organized Religion (Convert)

Golden Age End
Hereditary Rule
Bureaucracy
Slavery
Decentralization
Theocracy

Later: Switch to Nationhood

Problems with this approach: leaves me in Theocracy for my military build-up, rather than the organized religion boost. I need to get an ETA for gunpowder, because if I get it before the golden age could go to theocracy for the duration of the GA then switch back to Organized Religion. This plan also completely ignores vassalage, for what the civic is worth.

[mackoti]

Well you always can start spreding budism building a monastery.Why to pay for organizat religion civic and you have that religion just in 1 city(you know that org religion is very expensive) and a monastery its never bad.

[oledavy]

Good point, I was under the impression though that the cost was a factor of how many cities had the religion and the population of those cities? How is the upkeep cost determined?

[oledavy]

The journalists in the throne room stirred nervously. The Grand Master of the Knights Templar had promised a press conference to answer pressing questions on the course the empire would take. Rumor had it, that major plans were in the works, heightening the tension in the room. The large double doors behind them swung open and the Grand Master strode in, his robes billowing around him. The reporters bowed nervously, but the GrandMaster waved them aside.

"No time for formalities, I'm sure you're all anxious to hear what I have to announce."

The assembled journalists nodded in agreement.

"Right" Continued the Grandmaster "First things first, many of you have heard reports of the spread of a new religion, Buddhism in the city of Edessa thanks to intrepid missionaries from the Ottoman Empire. Many have questioned what the Order's official position on the new creed is. Our envoys in Edessa found that the citizens new daily regimen of meditation impeded their completion of the Great Stone Faces. Despite this, they spoke of the good things offered by this religion, and recommended it be spread throughout the empire. There was some question on whether the religion should be organized before it's spread, however, Advisor Mackoti has recommended that it be spread before it is organized, to cut down on costs of mantaining the new state religion while still benefitting from it. An investigation revealed that it would increase our government costs significantly, and therefore it will be spread to other cities first. The citizens of Edessa are currently at work constructing a monastary to train the missionaries that will go throughout the empire empire and spread the one true creed" he looked each one square in the eye "which you will all convert to when the time comes."

The was a murmur of disapproval through the room. Give up the old creeds, the old gods? unthinkable. That religion should be organized? unheard of.

The Grandmaster continued on without hesitation. "Secondly, many have questioned the direction of our sages, saying their research efforts have been confused or myoptic, from here on out this is not the case. The sages recently unlocked the secrets of Aesthetics, and are currently trying to perfect drama" - he glowered at the reporters again - "opening night of their first production: Templars, Turn Off the Dark is this Saturday, I trust I will see you all there?

The aseembled journalists meekly nodded in agreement.

"After they do this, they will investigate the mysteries of civil service, paper and education. My chief science minister tells me that after they discover how to construct universities, they will be able to unlock the powerful secret of liberalism."

A group of political protesters in the back of the press conference with mispelled signs gasped "How can you betray the principles of the founding fathers?"

The grandmaster turns his glare on them: "I can do whatever I want, this is a monarchy! Come back when we've adopted Representation and then we can talk." There was a moment of silence, then a woman who seemed to be their leader shouted "You betcha!" and they filed out of the throne room. The Grandmaster rubbed his temples. "We know from diplomatic talks that the Egyptians are likely going for the technology and are already researching the secrets of paper. If we get to that point and they have not completed our research, we will attempt to acquire a loan from our Ottoman brothers in the Faith to fund the research. If the Egyptians get it first, we will go straight into investigating how to make stuff blow up." He grinned as he said it.

The reporters nodded, waiting for him to continue.

"Now, in regards to scrapping the widespread cottage initia..."

He was interrupted by a courtier. "Sir the protesters have taken to the streets! They are shouting things like: "Too Much Government!" and "Buddhism equals Socialism!" The Grandmaster Frowned. "Pardon me, I have to go deal with this."

The reporters murmured in consternation. "What about reports that work has begun on a golden monument in Constantinople? or that the Inca are stalling on Non-Aggression Pact negotatiations?

But the Grandmaster was already at the door, the double doors swung open to a growing ruckus in the street - "DOWN WITH SOCIALISM!" came an impassioned yelll. The grandmaster marched into the street leaving the doors to slam behind him and the reporters in confusion.



So....yeah I was bored. Still, to the few of you who follow my thread, do you enjoy this format better? Or would prefer my usual style of updates? All credit for inspiring this style goes to Neal on CivFanatics and his enjoyable King of the World SP game series

[oledavy]

Time for another turn update


I founded Rhodes, and stole the Pigs from Jerusalem to jump-start the settlement. Once I get plantations on those silks, will be a decent commerce city/fishing village.


I plotted out a general idea of the improvements I plan to construct on each tile. As you can see, I've decided to forego cottage cheese and instead go for large number of workshops. This of course, will entail getting State property ASAP, implementing cast System and teching to Chemistry (+1 hammers for workshops). Here are my reasons for this approach:

1) Production - As I've already stated, this map is light on production, with the proper civics in place this will rectify that problem and allow my cities to be insanely productive. Of course the major drawback to this is that I will have less commerce long term because of the fewer number of mature towns. Short term I can simply work lots of water tiles (which I'll want to prioritize anyway because of dikes) for more commerce than an immature cottage. If things work out the way I hope, in late game the size of my empire from taking cities should be able to make up for that shortfall. The ability to pump out a large army with these workshops when the war comes is what I'm banking on here.
2) State Property - With the toroidal world wrap maintenance costs, I am beginning to believe State Property may be superior to Free Market in Creating in creating extra commerce. PLus, if I do want to try to go for a domination win, running a widespread elpire with extra trade routes alone could get costly.
3) Pillaging - A reason that is often cited in the SE vs. CE debate, if I do have to fight a war on my home soil, I would rather have to replace a pillaged workshop in five turns than wait to grow a pillaged cottage back.
4) Chemistry Synergy - I will be prioritizing getting to Chemistry anyway because of frigates, so this has a nice synergy with using a lot of workshops.


Last turn I began work on the Shwedagon Paya in Constantinople. The idea is that I can completely skip teching theology and still get to switch to theocracy. Additionally, it adds 2 GP points per turn to my Great Person pool in the future national epic city. Even if I end up with fail gold instead, it will fund taking theology - a win win propostition.


I began prep work to construct the Statue of Zeus last turn, by quickly throwing up three monuments in Jericho, Cairo and Jaffa. I will start work on it in Jaffa. Im going for this wonder for three reasons:
1) It's annoying to have to fight against
2) Denial - I'd rather not NoSpace get this wonder for example.
3) Fail gold! - If all else fails.


The GNP graph, which I think speaks for itself O.O NoSpace is scary. The graph tells me that the Egyptians are researching something right now - their treasury went down by about 170 gold.

Thoughts/Advice anyone?

[oledavy]

............





NoSpace just researched Banking and revolted into Mercantilsm. I should have seen this coming, but was still shocked. It took a minute to grasp just what this means for their research rate. I'm not skilled in Cloak and Dagger work, but this is what I gathered from examining the graphs:

- They're in anarchy right now, revolting into mercantilism.
- It looks like they researched banking in one turn from the GNP graph, which means at max science they make approximately 650 beakers (compared to my 470 beakers).
- Running representation-powered scientists with the mercantilism effect means an additional 90 beakers a turn.

NoSpace new research rate: 740 beakers a turn

.........

It would be a gross understatement to say I was a little perturbed when I saw this. They are becoming a true runaway, and unless the other teams act to stop them soon, they will win this game.

I spoke to Darrell right after playing my turn, sharing my concerns about the new NoSpace tech rate. He felt the same way, and asked me if I wanted to partner up to get to liberalism. He is nine turns away at max science, about 2 turns closer than me at. We agreed on these terms:

- I funnel all my gold to him until he nets liberalism. I make about ~140 gold a turn configured as I am at present. Once I configure max commerce it will go up to approximately 170 gold a turn. Basically it's an investment of ~1350 gold.
- In return, he pays me half the beaker cost of the free tech in gold (nationalism = 862 gold) and refunds my ~1350 gold.
- I research alphabet next to see what techs everyone has and whether we have a good shot at it.
- If we fail, he refunds me the gold I invested in the project.

This deal will put me seriously behind in teching for nine turns. However if we succeed, I will be able to run max science for awhile after that from that ~2100 gold. From a meta-gaming perspective it is absolutely critical that NoSpace does not get the tech.

Everyone Else's Chance of Getting Liberalism

1st - NoSpace: Their detour to banking will make it harder for them to get liberalism first. However, their monster research rate will help make up for that. Darrell says they probably don't have philosophy, so they will have to take a sub-optimal tech for it if they do go for it. Worst case scenerio, they have a GS they use to bulb education Overall, Nospace has the best chance of netting the tech.
2nd - Rego: Darrell says he previously talked about a funder/fundee relationship with rego, but that he wasn't interested. Rego is a couple turns closer than Darrell to liberalism at max science, however, we should be able to beat him. The only way he could get it is if he is being funded by NoSpace or Shoot - and I seriously doubt either is the case. I don't think Rego would work with the board leader and Shoot is supposedly gearing up for war soon.
3rd - Shoot the Moon: Like I said, Shoot is preparing to go to war with NoSpace, so I seriously doubt he's making an serious bid for liberalism.

Darrell and I are still ironing out all the details of how this will work, but I do believe we have a legitimate chance of nabbing liberalism. Two other notes from the civics screen. Darrell is running vassalage instead of bureaucracy? He said Krill had convinced him of it, but would probably be switching back to bureaucracy soon. Also of note is that Rego does not have hereditary rule.

In domestic news, I began work on the Statue fo Zeus in Jaffa:


And nothing else of much importance happened. More whipping and building and I started work on the first of the six theaters needed for the globe in Cairo.

It is now only two turns until my NAP with Rego expires. He keeps dancing around resigning it. However, his power levels are the same as mine so I doubt he is planning an attack. I mentioned this to Darrell and he said that Rego doesn't like NAPs. However, I'm going to send a message to him later and try to pin him down to something definitive. On that note, I wonder if I can talk to Shoot about what his plans are...and see if he's funding anyone.

[oledavy]

Shoot sent me an interesting email earlier today:

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]David,

I just wanted to check in about what is going on with the plans to 3v1 India we had discussed earlier. I just got an email from Nospace saying that they are in discussions with Darrell about an NAP but said he didn't want to sign one unless I also did (and thus Nospace are asking me for an NAP). I haven't talked to Darrell at all about the 3v1 so I don't want to ask him this directly, but do you know if his thoughts on going to war have changed? Or is it just that Nospace approached him and he's in a tricky spot of trying to delay them/not tip them off? I guess the other thing to make sure of since we haven't chatted in a while is whether the war plan is still something you are planning to do.

Shoot[/COLOR]

I responded with the following:

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Hey Shoot!

Plans had not changed since last we spoke. I am still determined to go after them in the near future once I get East Indiamen and musketmen online. I talked to Darrell just earlier today and he still seemed onboard with the idea. I have told him that you are interested and that you were planning on retaking your source of iron shortly. Speaking of which, are you still planning on going for that? I apologize if you did not want me to share that with him, I felt it was best for trying to get an idea of how to coordinate this - and so Darrell would be aware that NoSpace may be pushed into a corner soon if you manage to succeed (no frigates, no knights).

I don't know how closely you pay attention to Demographics - but this last turn NoSpace completing banking and revolted into mercantilism. He's currently in anarchy. From the GNP screen, it looks like he researched the tech in one turn meaning their max science runs close to 650 beakers a turn. With a free representation-powered scientist in every city (16) courtesy of Mercantilism, they just got a boost of 96 beakers a turn, meaning their max research rate is somewhere around ~740 beakers. O.O I don't know about you, but that makes my research rate look pretty pathetic.

If we do not all act to curb them soon (i.e. - a 3 v1). They will win this game. Given my talks with Darrell (or his posts in the UN for that matter) I am pretty sure he has no interest in working with NoSpace, and I trust him. If he really is in NAP talks, he probably is planning on signing one that will last until right before we plan to attack. Clarification: Did Darrell said *he* did not want to sign one unless you also did? Perhaps he's doing that based on the knowledge that you're about to attack and won't sign? I will do the following:

1) Next time I talk to Darrell (probably tonight or tomorrow), I will ask him about the topic and voice your concerns, I will also recommend he approach you about the topic so I don't have to serve as intermediary.
2) I will not sign an NAP of any length with NoSpace, would rather keep them guessing as to my intent

I hope we can clear this up as quickly as possible.

Best Regards,
Dave[/COLOR]

Not quite sure what is going on, I'm going to try to catch up with Darrell later to establish what's going on.

Additionally, I finally caught up to Rego and locked down an NAP. The NAP has been extended to turn 105 under the same terms (5-turn cooldown period after cancellation, earliest possible date to cancel is turn 100).

[oledavy]

Quick update, I'll post more on the diplomatic side of things later, but for right now I'll just stick to Domestic goings on.

I finished civil service, selected alphabet, and went to full gold on the slider. I reconfigured my cities for commerce and squeezed that amount up to 169 a turn, 1 short of what I promised Darrell. More building across the empire, but no whipping, as I need to work every commerce tile I can for the next few turns. I started work on the other five theaters this turn. Work will begin on the Globe Theater in Damascus in four turns.


Someone netted a great scientist - Galileo Galilei - right after the beginning of Rego's golden age to switch to hereditary rule. I'm concerned we may have lost the liberalism race, and whoever got Galileo plans to use him to bulb education. Darrell's research rate spiked in Demogs as he goes hell to leather to finish paper. NoSpace is running max gold at the moment.

Warning, the following image has nothing to do with PBEM #17




You were warned

[oledavy]

Last night, I had a chat with Darrell and Shoot, which unfortunately I had to leave in the middle of. However, major diplomatic dealings are afoot, though I still need to discuss some matters with both.

First, the TL;DR Version

- Darrell and I are including Shoot in our push to liberalism deal.
- Shoot has given up on retaking his iron city before the coalition war.
- Darrell is much more worried about NoSpace than Shoot is.
- During said war, we will rely on me for navy, while Shoot and Darrell supply the land arm (Jannisaries ).
- NoSpace wants to sign an NAP with Darrell, but Darrell bluffed that he had a MDP with Shoot, and couldn't unless one was signed with both. Darrell wants to sign one that lasts ~20 turns.
- Darrell and I identified Rego as a major problem as we get closer to the coalition war.

Now Time for the Wall of Text

Darrell and I are including Shoot in our push to liberalism deal.
Shoot is going to make up the gold when I can't fund it. In return, he's going to receive something akin to 10% of the benefit from liberalism from Darrell (beakers = gold), at the expense of my portion (50% -> 40%) in addition to the investment refund from Darrell. Overall, even though my end of the deal suffers a bit, I feel more sure of getting liberalism with this plan in effect. Also, it's better that we include Shoot for the sake of building the alliance and making us all inter-dependent. The exact payout both of us will get will be determined as the deal progresses and we see just how much gold each of us contribute.

Shoot has given up on retaking his iron city before the coalition war.
I was really hoping Shoot would pull through here. NoSpace with iron means they can build frigates, and with their research capability get to chemistry pretty quickly (they're only two techs away). I discussed this with Darrell and we both agreed this meant there would be a very small window of East Indiamen naval dominance, and that we would have to be ready to make immediate use of this opportunity.

Darrell is much more worried about NoSpace than Shoot is.
A minor note, but interesting nonetheless. Shoot downplayed my concerns over the mercantilism boost, while Darrell seemed much more concerened.

During said war, we will rely on me for navy, while Shoot and Darrell supply the land arm (Jannisaries).
This plan was already pretty well established with Darrell, but now Shoot is on board and agrees. I like that we now have Shoot with his Jannisaries Like I said some number of posts ago, I still plan to contribute a token drafted force of musketmen if possible, for the GG and for a claim to anything we might take. In the event that this becomes impossible because of time and tech constraints, I will talk to Darrell or Shoot about buying a discounted GG since I did all the naval work and they get all the XP.

NoSpace wants to sign an NAP with Darrell, but Darrell bluffed that he had a MDP with Shoot, and couldn't unless one was signed with both. Darrell wants to sign one that lasts ~20 turns.
This part concerned me the most. It's not a bad idea to sign an NAP with this team, I'm just worried that if we all sign NAPs that expire at nearly the same time, it will limit our options and tip our hand. Worst case scenario is that NoSpace signs NAPS with Darrell and Shoot but not me. I've been watching their power rating grow, and my military could not hope to stop a determined attacker with medieval units. Perhaps Darrell can sign but with a publicly announced three-way MDP? But then this would show that the three of us are working together, and increase the paranoia of NoSpace, if they don't suspect already that we are banding together against them. I really need to speek to Darrell regarding this and try to hash out the best course of action for the three of us while ideally not revealing our intent to NoSpace.

Darrell and I identified Rego as a major problem as we get closer to the coalition war.
What Rego does is by far the stickiest question that confronts us when we begin the coalition war. Darrell and I both agreed to address it after the conclusion of the liberalism deal. So, I've started considering the situation and will put my thoughts here, the likelihood percentages are conjecture on my part.

Possible Scenarios

#1 - Rego joins us in the coalition war
#2 - Rego remains neutral but funnels us economic aid
#3 - Rego remains neutral and builds his own economy
#4 - Rego remains neutral but funnels economic aid to NoSpace
#5 - Rego uses the opportunity to independently declare war and invade one of us three
#6 - Rego allies himself with NoSpace in the war

Scenario #1 - Rego joins us in the coalition war
Likelihood: 30%
I don't believe there is much of a chance Rego will jump on board to go to war with NoSpace. He seems like a player who would rather play both sides for maximum advantage. I don't believe he'll want to be the latecomer to the alliance and join out of an altruistic desire to stop the runaway civ. If he does join, it will be purely because he sees a major benefit for his Civilization in this. Obviously though, this would be the best case scenario for us. If we pitch this idea to him, we need to make sure we offer him a major bundle of spoils in exchange for involvement.

Scenario #2 - Rego remains neutral but funnels us economic aid
Likelihood: 10%
Many of the things I said for scenario #1 will unfortunately apply to this one too. I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that Rego will want to sit this one out while still getting a piece of the action, but I consider it very unlikely that he would even consider doing this without a bundle in return. I don't think we'll pitch this idea to him.

Scenario #3 - Rego remains neutral and builds his own economy
Likelihood: 40%
I have Rego pegged as a player who is going to try to make up for his lack of financial by running a Priest Economy to the max, building temples and monasteries in every city and leveraging his industrious trait into the University of Sankore and the Spiral Minaret. If he gets all these wonders it will give him a substantial boost until the modern era. With this in mind, he may be in the middle of a major infrastructure push about now and not be prepared to go to war. This scenario is the second-most preferable for us, and one I consider fairly likely. however, Rego is diplomatically adept to know that when and if we defeat NoSpace, he'll be facing three tight-knit civs all by himself. If we pitch this idea to him, we'll have to give him incentives to remain neutral and stress the idea (factually or not) that the purpose of this 'alliance' is solely to defeat NoSpace.

Scenario #4 - Rego remains neutral but funnels economic aid to NoSpace
Likelihood: 20%
Now we get to the three bad cases for our war with NoSpace: the first is Rego supplying economic aid to NoSpace. I consider this unlikely for the reasons I listed earlier, but not as unlikely a supplying us. Darrell says Rego would not be above aiding the board leader in the event that the game was lost. However, I don't think he's given up on this game yet. Nonetheless, I think rego is ultimately interested in preserving the balance of power and pursuing a natural closer relationship with NoSpace when we dogpile him.

Scenario #5 - Rego uses the opportunity to independently declare war and invade one of us three
Likelihood: 60%
I think there is an excellent chance Rego would view a world war as his moment to strike and make a move to invade one of the three of us, independent of cooperation with NoSpace. He strikes me as opportunistic and this would be his chance to really get ahead in the game, possibly while winning some concessions from NoSpace for his involvement. I feel sure that if we do not manage to lock Rego into one of the other options, NoSpace will pitch this idea to him and try to get him involved. This is probably the worst case scenario.

Scenario #6 - Rego allies himself with NoSpace in the war
Likelihood: 50%
I consider this scenario less likely than the last, because if Rego enters the war, he's more likely to pursue his own gains than help NoSpace lock down his territory. Ultimately though, it will come down to what NoSpace offers him for involvement.

Ultimately, we're going to need to be very careful in how we pitch this to Rego, and what we tell him when. If we fail to keep him neutral or get him on our side, this war could very well be over before it even begins. The diplomacy with Rego is going to be absolutely critical.

So, to you who persevered through that long wall of text, thanks for reading!. Anyone who's reading please feel free to comment on how to handle Rego in this situation, would love to get a few second opinions.

So, what do I have to do diplomatically now? Here's a list, as much for myself as for this thread:

- Work to clarify the terms of the Liberalism deal and coordinate with Darrell.
- Discuss with Shoot and Darrell the possibility of signing NAPs with NoSpace.
- Figure out some way to coordinate our military action when we get to that point (find a three-way chat server, etc.).
- Decide how to deal with Rego.

[oledavy]

Okay, turn 91 has come and gone. I decided to send my first missionary to Constantinople, as it needs the happiness and the 2xp from theocracy when I start using it to pump out East Indiamen. I similarly prioritized sending missionaries to the cities of Jericho, Jaffa, Hattin, Cairo and Damascus so I can maximize my benefit from Buddism as soon as possible. Work begins on the Globe Theater in Damascus next turn. I'm currently farming the land around the nearby lake, and with the globe infinite happiness, I will be able to grow it to the point where I can draft every turn and still have decent production.



Rego finished the University of Sankore, it looks like my prediction that he would go the priest economy route was correct.