WW48: Melllvar's Grand Competition!

[Lewwyn]

I'm going to be completely honest with you here Lewwyn. Those posts are just a mass of information that I can't absorb. I can't even really respond in any meaningful way because parsing information out of that is painful. I still am not 100% sure I'm staying on you, I really like Meiz for this as well, but I will promise that I'll go through it line by line if I have to should you swing and turn blue.

Get ready to read them line by line then.

I will try to do a tldr tomorrow morning on both cyne and alhambram tomorrow morning though. I’m going to bed and I’ll probably do one more deep read tomorrow morning as well.

[sunrise089]

Pindicator on dolphin speech, as promised. Bolding is mine.

First post from 17 minutes before the deadline (363), Day 1, with Commodore on the lynch block:

@pindicator

Why haven't you voted for Comm? Will you vote for Comm?

I haven't taken the effort to dig past his speech impedement.  Honestly, his posts are full of noise for me because of that and I can't quickly read them.

I would vote Comm.  Thought about doing it last just to save myself, but I still think thrawn is better.  Thrawn is hiding behind the "is pindi scum/not scum" discussion and not giving anything else.

pindicator says AT THAT POINT he hasn't taken the effort to dig past the flavor. 

Post 570, early Day 2.

Pindicator, you said earlier that you couldn't parse Commodore's roleplay? How is that even possible?

pindicator responds right away, 572

Novice, are you taking an early day 1 read of mine on Commodore?  Because I just said that I did a re-read on Commodore.  Here, have my notes:

[provides notes through the end of Night 1]

Early on I did have trouble parsing him, but that's partly why I did the re-read.  Didn't want to walk into another situation like I did with Cyneheard in 46, defending someone just because I was skimming them.  And with the dolphin noises my eyes just want to skip over those lines so it was easy to skip over real stuff too, that's why I initially was having trouble reading him.

Okay, clearly the re-read, from it's own notes, didn't happen until during/after Night 1. That seems indisputable. Perhaps pindicator actually did two things - he earlier figured out how to parse the dolphin speech, at some reasonable point during Day 1, and then later did a full re-read. Except pindicator uses the Night 1 re-read to suggest novice's criticism stopped being valid after "early day 1." He even explains the did the re-read in part to resolve the trouble parsing Commodore. 
novice immediately calls this out, 583.

Thanks for the notes.

I was referring to your post made 17 minutes before deadline on day one:

[quotes the original T-minus-17-minutes post quoted above]

So at that point you hadn’t really read his posts at all?

And this is pindicator's response (594), which he's harkened back to and said he's answered the criticism:

@novice, I believe the very post you quoted answers your question

Well no, IMHO this does not answer the question, and it seems as though pindicator doesn't want to come out and say the answer directly. The only thing pindicator has shown is that he did a re-read, where he was able to overcome the challenge of reading italics and <> brackets, during or after Night 1. So my questions are: 

1) if pindicator went in to the end of Day 1 (considering voting for Commodore to-boot!) without having read + understood Commodore when the actual difficulties understanding him, at least to every other player, were trivially easy to overcome, doesn't it seems he was either negligent with his vote beyond belief or otherwise making a convenience excuse to not make a read? (NOTE: okay this question is super leading, so consider it rhetorical]

2) if pindicator actually started being able to read Commodore earlier why on earth would he say what he said in post 363 and use a much-later re-read as his only evidence of gaining the understanding?

3) why is pindicator being so circumspect/aggressive when being asked for a direct statement explaining this? [NOTE: okay, 2/3 ended up rhetorical]

[pindicator]

I reread day 1 and I have a hard time seeing Lewwyn as scum. Like I would vote for myself to save Lewwyn if it came down to it, I feel that confident. During the day people were trying to say they were suspicious of Lewwyn for saving me, and I was the only person he was actively offering support to. He was actually trying to push me to vote Commodore to me up as the patsy then how do you explain his posts in day 1? He keeps asking me if I'll vote Comm to save myself. How does that save Commodore unless he's trying to be intentionally convoluted? But that's WIFOM territory.

People are voting for Lewwyn because he was trying to find other cases than Commodore on day 2. Even being wrong on Comm there are still 2 more scum to find. I don't fault him for it. I know I assumed i had been played as the patsy after Commodore flipped but that was a natural reaction to being wrong on something I argued so hard for. My natural reactions aren't great, I'm better at the analysis after the fact. I'm better at the rereads. Meiz commented earlier this game how he remembered us high-fiving as we caught scum in 47. I hope he also recalls that I didn't catch scent of El Grillo as the second scum until I did my reread of that day.

Cyneheard has disappeared after the heat subsided off him today. Can we please lynch Cyneheard? His day 1 doesn't look good and his day 2 is the same boat as Lewwyn and I.

Lewwyn, I can see Alhambram as a possibility. Maybe the rest of town needs to see one of us go before they'll come around.

[Jabbz]

I reread day 1 and I have a hard time seeing Lewwyn as scum. Like I would vote for myself to save Lewwyn if it came down to it, I feel that confident. During the day people were trying to say they were suspicious of Lewwyn for saving me, and I was the only person he was actively offering support to. He was actually trying to push me to vote Commodore to me up as the patsy then how do you explain his posts in day 1? He keeps asking me if I'll vote Comm to save myself. How does that save Commodore unless he's trying to be intentionally convoluted? But that's WIFOM territory.

People are voting for Lewwyn because he was trying to find other cases than Commodore on day 2. Even being wrong on Comm there are still 2 more scum to find. I don't fault him for it. I know I assumed i had been played as the patsy after Commodore flipped but that was a natural reaction to being wrong on something I argued so hard for. My natural reactions aren't great, I'm better at the analysis after the fact. I'm better at the rereads. Meiz commented earlier this game how he remembered us high-fiving as we caught scum in 47. I hope he also recalls that I didn't catch scent of El Grillo as the second scum until I did my reread of that day.

Cyneheard has disappeared after the heat subsided off him today. Can we please lynch Cyneheard? His day 1 doesn't look good and his day 2 is the same boat as Lewwyn and I.

Lewwyn, I can see Alhambram as a possibility. Maybe the rest of town needs to see one of us go before they'll come around.

Why as a villager would you ever sacrifice a known town (yourself) for someone you were confident, but could not be 100% sure, was town? How does town benefit from that? Even if you swung and popped town, that just means you are well intentioned, not right, and we would be doing this all over again tomorrow down two townies. This comes off strange.

[pindicator]

@Jabbz - I'm like 95% confident. Maybe I'm the patsy 5% of the time. But I also know I'm pretty eff-ing tilted about this game due to the constant harassment from several players. If we get into a me v Lewwyn situation where my vote decides it, yes I will choose to save Lewwyn over me. He is still trying and he is not as despondent/tilted as I am.

@Sunrise, let me answer those as best I can for you.

I mis-remembered the timeframe of when Novice originally had asked me about Commodore.  He asked in the night and I thought his original question about reading COmmodore's posts had happened earlier in the day than it did.  There was a lot that happened in the last 4 hours of the first day - we had as many posts then as we did the first 44 hours.

1) What I've always tried to explain about my issue with Commodore's translator is that when I'm catching up on a bunch of posts I start to skim.  It's not the best for comprehension but it's what you have to do when you have limited time.  Anyway, when I skim and I see dolphin gibberish my eye immediately just shoots downward in the post looking for English.  What had happened with that is due to Commodore layering multiple instances of Gibberish/Translation was sometimes I would skim too far and miss a section.  If this was trivial for you then I don't know what to say. Congratulations on being a better skimmer than me?

2) I said in 363 that I would vote Comm to save myself because it was day 1 and of course you would vote anybody else to save yourself.  However, I thought the case on thrawn was good.  I didn't see the case on Commodore.  But if push came to shove and I had to vote Comm to save myself  ---  why is that even a difficult thing to comprehend?  Everyone would do the same!

3) I get upset at having to play defense every game of WW I play in.  Commodore was joking about it with me in WW46, posting the Princess Bride quotes of "Most likely kill you in the morning" It's not just these last two games, too; it happened frequently in the earlier games. Something about my playstyle rubs people the wrong way I guses. But yeah, I got snippy with novice because I thought i had already answered his question. It's better than what I did to Meiz.


Look, if you want to think that I'm Commodore's teammate then the biggest piece of evidence I think I can give you is Commodore's own words:

EEE-*chirup* e'Eeeee ttickakakakatttata Eeeeee eee.
<[i]Pindicator until I complete my reread. Were I a human I'd have meetings first though.

He comes in at early morning Americas time, about 2.5 hours from deadline, and announces that he's here now and hasn't caught up but that he's reflexively voting against me to save himself.  If he's trying to save his scum partner, voting off GES and onto Thrawn is the smart play here - no?  Sure, we can WIFOM if he was doing it as a ruse, but simplest explanation is he's putting it on the highest town to save himself before he reads the posts attacking him in thread to try and defend himself.

Same thing with Lewwyn: simplest explanation is he is attempting to find scum and pushing for who he thinks is the best lynch when he was so actively pushing people to vote thrawn on day 1.

[Meiz]

And Meiz, if you really have power to kill player without revaling their roles or alignment. Then I suggest to not use against Lewwyn or Pindicator because I think that town needs information about either of those two.

Yes I agree. The only scenario I will be using my power is if I'm at the end game and think we are losing the game with the lynch.

Meiz's power is basically a null power because its super anti-town but at the same time, I can't imagine Brick would give scum a vig.

Agreed, but Meiz's power is also a great one to make up if need be since calls to "prove it" would be so anti-town. It would get dicey as a claim with three players left but I can see someone not worrying about that now. I don't think that's the case, Meiz is my #1 town, but I don't think there's a single claimed role yet, including mine of course, which is both provable and definitely town.

Meiz's role just seems so at odds with what everyone else has. I can see the justification for not giving role info from Gaz, because it would be inherited (in theory). Why on earth would a townie have a kill that would leave everyone in the dark. IIRC he didn't specify it as giving him info and no one else, so I have to assume he would be blind as well. How does that fit in with a whole slew of information gathering abilities, and the vig we already have. I think either Meiz is making up his role, or Rowain faked his somehow. Of the two I think Meiz is far more likely, and I already have a scum lean on him.

This is the type of thinking that has lost us many games in the past. Don't focus on what role player was assigned for and if the GM would assign it to a town or not. Focus on how that player plays the game and then explain what in that game makes you lean more town/wolf on him. As for my role, Gazglum was killed N1 and his alignment was not revealed. I also have a kill role that hides alignment & role but works on daytime. Now if we want to start metagaming the GM, I think my role is a balancing role to whoever killed Gazglum. With two players having similiar type of roles, it brings an interesting scenario for town if the players are revealed. Which one to trust, or could both be town. Or alternatively, could one player have both abilities. To me it's clear that Brick has brought roles in this game that will not work as means to clear yourself. He is also notoriously famous for making unexcepted setups, one example being a game where 3 towns received identical power roles and town lynched each of them, thinking that 1 out of the 3 has to be a scum.

Jabbz, why do you have a scum lean on me? I know you've said couple of times already that something in my play irks me. What is it?

[pindicator]

To be perfectly clear, I'd much rather vote for scum than either Lewwyn or myself.

[sunrise089]

I mis-remembered the timeframe of when Novice originally had asked me about Commodore.  He asked in the night and I thought his original question about reading COmmodore's posts had happened earlier in the day than it did.  There was a lot that happened in the last 4 hours of the first day - we had as many posts then as we did the first 44 hours.

But the novice post was 19 minutes before your reply. He doesn't quote any earlier novice post or anything. Admittedly after working for me to check all your posts the stupid forum 'show all posts in thread from X' thing isn't working right now...can you point me to an earlier novice post asking about you reading the dolphin speech?

1) What I've always tried to explain about my issue with Commodore's translator is that when I'm catching up on a bunch of posts I start to skim.  It's not the best for comprehension but it's what you have to do when you have limited time.  Anyway, when I skim and I see dolphin gibberish my eye immediately just shoots downward in the post looking for English.  What had happened with that is due to Commodore layering multiple instances of Gibberish/Translation was sometimes I would skim too far and miss a section.  If this was trivial for you then I don't know what to say. Congratulations on being a better skimmer than me?

I get the skimming. And I get the end of day. But the early day wasn't as hectic and IMHO you had plenty of non-pressed time to figure out the dolphin format. And, IMHO, if I was up against a Commodore lynch at end of the day I would have found the time to read that guy at least a bit. Skim me, skin Gaspar, whatever, but IMHO you can't skim Commodore there.

So...big scum tell for me. I didn't like this then (543), I didn't like the roundabout defense or counterattack on me for asking about it, and I'm not sold on this answer here either. But I do appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Interested to hear anyone else on this too.

[Meiz]

The blind confidence Pindicator has for Lewwyn (and I'd say vice versa, even when Lewwyn initially had good reason to suspect Pind which has now been forgotten) reminds me of the scum play I played together with novice. I kept repeating how novice feels town, while gathering damning evidence agaisnt town based on that "town read". We won that game.

I think this game is in a phase where scum cannot afford Lewwyn being lynched next. This is because Lewwyn's reveal would clear too many town members for their accusations against him, and cement the idea that Pindicator is the next logical lynch forward. Therefore I believe this day is the most critical day for wolves to win, which shows up in the effort both Lewwyn & Pindicator are showing. If they are not able to prevent the lynch today, their win chances are draining down the toilet.

I think town should lynch Lewwyn next, as he has shown a clear agenda both D1 & D2 to prevent a Commodore mislynch. If Lewwyn would turn up as town (I don't believe in this but pointing it out anyway), it will help everyone to take a very clear look at the D1 & D2 and start to figure out alternative possibilities.

Please notice how Lewwyn is leaving out uncomfrotable things out while hammering his cases to left & right. For example, I've pointed out in my roleclaim how it's the same type as Gazglum's death. Lewwyn had and earlier theory how Kaiser could have a role stealing ablity (https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...#pid754275). No comment on the point I was making, because it would intervere his agenda to direct lynches away from him.

Or how Alhambram comments on how Lewwyn's earlier statement on dying at night sounds bizarre in relation to his claiemd hider ability (#935). Lewwyn drops the subject because it would hinder his credibility.

[pindicator]

Blind Confidence?  That's rich coming from you.  Do you want me to spell out every post where I get this from?  Except what's the point in doing that because YOU WON'T LISTEN.  I'll do it anyway.  Watch, after I flip town he'll still have theories about how I'm scum.

The only blind person here is you with your tunnel vision.  You never re-adjust.