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Ichabod · May 24th, 2011, 05:53

Maksim Wrote:I like your plan, sir!

It's a classic dwarven synergy (Runes of Kilmorph gets you gold, Thanes for healing\instant city culture, production with Arete, Enchantment I with Bambur, Repair with Bambur). Construction is relatively cheap, so is Bronze Working for axemen + bronze weapons (should you be lucky enough to have copper nearby). In fact, I'd be tempted to say that this is an early-mid-game strategy rather than a truly mid-game one.

Are you also considering heading down to Medicine to pick up Arthendain as well for stack defense? You already mentioned heading to Sanitation longer term, so it's not too much of a detour.

Just about the only other thing I'd like to point out is that, is the teching going slow? With the second city being connected straight away (weird though it is - is it that river trade does not require Fishing; or maybe just internal river trade does not require it), you are already seeing a small profit to it, judging by the screenshot.

Finally, one other game mechanic thing - when the Khazad fire this worldspell, it does not destroy any improvements - so you may end up with a farmed plains hill. Now, this will lose 1F, trading it for 1H, I think, but it's not an automatic end of the world if this happens to your wheat farm, perhaps?

Hey Maksim, thanks for your comment and thoughts.

The attack plan indeed seems very solid. I can probably take down a rival that didn't worried himself about a proper defense with it. There's just one problem: I had a chat with Mardoc yesterday. He wanted a NAP. We signed one until turn 65 (I won't be anyway near the things I need for the plan) but I got the feeling that they know I can be a dangerous neighbor. It's a pity, but I think they must be heading to Centaur Archers...

So, maybe I'll have to attack another target instead. I'll probably engage Mardoc diplomaticly to try and convince him not to settle their second city so close to me. They are planning to go after Jkaen, so I can use this as an argument. So, I could go either after Sciz, Dantski, Selrahc or Jkaen. I'll need a better map knowledge to make a proper choice, but I do have to say that Sciz seems to be an interesting target.

I don't have plans to get Arthendain. That's because I'll go to FoL later, I'll only stay in RoK for a bit. FoL will give a hero with Vitalize in a tech that also unlocks Dwarven Druids (can cast crush, which is almost as good as Snowfall; can summon very powerful earth elementals; can walk on unwalkable terrain + I can have 4 of them). If I want to get these, though, I have to avoid detours at all costs.

The teching is good. I'm number 2 in GNP already and that's with only 1 cottage (first are the lanun, but they are really horrible at the other things) and no elder councils or God King. God King will be ready is 5/6 turns (it was 13 turns when I first decided to tech it, but I think I'll end it in something like 8 turns -> second city + cottages + further tech discounts). As for the trade routes, internal river trade routes don't require fishing, like you guessed.

The big problem with the world spell is: I cannot afford to lose my meager food surplus. Going from a +5 food surplus to a +4 is a very big hit. So I'm kind of worried about doing it. When I get to sanitation, though, it's a different story, because I'll be able to control the surplus without depending on the food specials.

Ichabod

Well, if we can't play turns, let's do diplomacy:

I had a chat with Mardoc a few nights ago:

So, he asked for a NAP. I said I'm not a big fan of them, because they are very limiting. We ended up signing one until turn 65, to avoid any Orthus problem.

I think Mardoc and Irgy suspected that I could be planning on attacking them. So I guess the NAP was a way to try and confirm that. That makes my planned attack a worst option. Not that a turn 65 NAP will interfere with something (I won't be anyway near ready), but I think they are going to be prepared.

Anyway, I'm not so keen on backstabbing the kurios anymore. They have been very nice until know. I really think that, at this point, I can gain more by cooperating with them. So, the attack (on the kuriotates devil

) is called off for now.

They also say that they might be going for Jkaen (if whatever is killing Jkaens warriors don't kill him first). As for my target, I have Sciz as most likely for now, but I need to do more exploring before comitting to someone.

So, as I don't want to kill the Kuriotates anymore, I decided that their second city site is too close from my capital for my liking. So, I sent a message to Mardoc to try and work things. Here's how the things happened:

Ichabod to Mardoc:

Mardoc to Ichabod:

Ichabod to Mardoc:

Hey Mardoc,

I'm writing this regarding my previous message about the site of your second city.

I'm not going to lie to you. When you sent me the message that you were going to settle the spot taking the sheep and the reagents I wasn't very happy. I don't believe in something like a "natural right" to unclaimed lands, but that site is very close to my capital, so it made me a bit wary. But, at that time, I was considering attacking you as one of the optimal game plans, so a city so close to my borders would be a nice staging point for an invasion.

But my mind has changed since then. I think cooperation between our civilizations would be the best way to go regarding the game. So, the plan of attacking you was obviously pulled off. So, I'm here trying to find a diplomatic solution regarding the situation that botters me.

I really don't know how far that spot is from your capital, but I don't think it is as close to my capital city. My planned third city, the one which would be settled in the contested area, would go on the incense tile 1NW of the sheep (I think you can see it in your maps). The sheep would be in the first ring and the reagents on the second. So, is there anyway for you to settle a good city without conflicting too much with my proposed site? I don't want the gold you talked about for example. Unfortunately, I haven't scouted that area very well, so I can't see any other possible options. Maybe plaing a city closer to Jkaen could be a nice way to get his capital as a third city later (just for clarification, are you sure you can only have 3 cities? I remember something about the manual being wrong in PB's thread in FFH PBEM I, so maybe you can have 4 cities).

I don't want to sound demanding or anything like that, but I think what I'm saying here is reasonable. Unfortunately, I can't afford making much concessions to take the site. I'm probably going to settle it anyway and, while I don't think I can match your culture regarding the reagents tile, I can probably secure the sheep (it'll be in my first ring). What I can offer is the basis of a mutual cooperation that will drive our civilizations forward. This can translate into a longer NAP, resource trades, open borders. And it also means that I'll probably be crippling one of your opponents, because I feel that the dwarves need to make an impact in the early game to stay competitive for later.

Rest assured that I wouldn't be discussing the issue so openly if it wasn't for our good relations and the trust I feel we have in our communication.

Hope we can reach an agreement about it.

Kind Regards,

Ichabod

Mardoc to Ichabod:

Interesting parts: I reveal that I thought attacking them was one of my best options. I discover that the Kuriotates will only be able to settle 3 cities (not 4, like in PBs game). I pretty much secured my desired site, it seems the kurios are very far too and that second city would go straight into my face.

What do you think about this, lurkers?

Gaspar · May 27th, 2011, 02:18

Someone you can work with is important, but I'd attack the Kurio's if I were you. wink

Ichabod · May 27th, 2011, 06:28

Gaspar Wrote:Someone you can work with is important, but I'd attack the Kurio's if I were you.

Well, it's still a possibility. Like I said, we have a NAP until turn 65. I won't let anyone run a skeletal defense just because we are supposed to be friends. People run skeletal defenses to be able to kill you later with more tech/land, so there's nothing wrong in killing them before, if you don't break a deal. At least that's the way I see it.

But the kurios are by far the civ who can give me more bonuses from a friendship. I'll get good trade routes, access to the unique building resources, maybe a water mana deal or sun and spirit deal for the tower of divination. And we won't be competing that much for land, since he'll only be able to have 3 cities (I thought he could settle 4). Without the city settled near my borders, the attack won't be quite as easy to accomplish too.

Everything can change... Of course, that won't be a concern for a long time... This is starting to get on my nerves, actually. Imagine when the summer vacations start in the northern hemisphere. It's very frustrating to have a lot of plans made but not be able to get them done.

Anyway, I have to plan on a way to get map trades once I have cartography. Then I'll be able to plan my target with proper knowledge. Maybe I won't even need to kill someone, since Jkaen is getting killed by barbs. Seeing as me and Mardoc would be the players in better position to get Jkaens lands, that's very nice for me!

Ah, is there anything that you lurkers want to see in the next update? I'm trying to make this thread a better one to lurk, so if you have any suggestions/advices, please let me know.

Ravus Sol · May 27th, 2011, 23:28

Well i suppose a good ally is worth it's weight in gold. But so far it he's not said anything ally like, i'd still rate the relationship as cordial.

Do you definatley still want to rush someone? The main lure of the Kurio's was the chance to distract them with diplomacy and close range. Dwarves have slow moving armies after all.

Yes i'm sure the slow speed is even more grating now when you want to getting cottages everywhere quickly and have fun seeing how much you can milk it for an advantage.

Ichabod · May 31st, 2011, 16:44

Ravus Sol Wrote:Well i suppose a good ally is worth it's weight in gold. But so far it he's not said anything ally like, i'd still rate the relationship as cordial.

Do you definatley still want to rush someone? The main lure of the Kurio's was the chance to distract them with diplomacy and close range. Dwarves have slow moving armies after all.

Yes i'm sure the slow speed is even more grating now when you want to getting cottages everywhere quickly and have fun seeing how much you can milk it for an advantage.

You got a very good point, Ravus. The attack would be way harder to do in a distant target, since mobility will be the main issue. I'm going to get the techs that give economic boosts besides military gains first and I'll watch how the situation evolves. I need more map knowledge too.

That being said, I'm not entirely sold on doing an attack. Regardless, I want some military, so building somemunits won't hurt.

Turn 39-43:

Yes, a lot of turns passed since my last report. The turns are still moving slow, but it's been a long while since the last proper update, so there you go. The problem with early game FfH is that there's just too few things to report, especially when you don't have a scouting unit looking for huts and dungeons. I decided to wait a bit to make a update with more turns so I could show you my choices in a clearer context.

Worker Actions:

In the last updated turn, my first worker had just finished a cottage and my second worker just got built. I had two options, since I wanted to keep building cottages for the capital.

Option 1 is the yellow arrows. I could cottage the tile below the first cottage, saving the farm 1E and finishing it the next turn. Option 2, the red arrows would end up destroying the farm, while the cottage would be ready the next turn too.

I went with option 2, as you can see from my already moved worker in that city. The reasons are: I don't need that farm anymore, the two northern ones will suffice for now; and going with option 2, the cottage number 3 would be ready on 41, while option 1 would only finish the cottage on turn 42.

Here's boatmurdered on turn 41, with 3 cottages being worked:

Here's another micro thing. I didn't want to stop working the wheat, since it's such a high yield tile. But growing into unhapiness wouldn't be optimal either. So, by working the wheat farm + cottages, I'll grow to size 5 in the same turn that I'll have 100 gold -> need to tech Myst - 1 turn anarchy for revolt - 100% gold for 2/3 turns -> Size 5 capital with no unhapiness and no wasted food.

City Builds/Management:

Both my cities built warriors during these turns. The second city built 1 and the capital is finishing the 3rd one, which gives us 7 agressive warriors. It'll be sufficient to handle Orthus, I think, especially since dwarven cities have fortification bonuses.

After the last warrior, boatmurdered will probably build an Elder Council for the science. I want to get the Brewing House in the capital too, for the +% commerce with wheat, the happiness resource and the +2 XP for dwarven units. But I'll probably build a settler after the elder council.

Hindenburg was going to start on a pagan temple, because I plan to generate a GPro. So, it'd be warrior -> Pagan Temple. But, I'm second guessing myself and I'll probably build a monument first. I was going to wait for the Holy City culture, but it'll take too long and my tech plan changed too. I said I would go Myst -> Mining -> WotE. Now I'm thinking of going Animal Husbandry -> Mining -> WotE.

AH will let me work the cows for a 3f/3h/1c tile, which is pretty nice and a 4f/1h/1c sheep tile with the border pop. My thinking is: why would I build a Pagan Temple if I don't have the food surplus for running a specialist without making my city useless? So, I'm going to work on the surplus first and then get the specialist. This way, I can have a size 4 city working cows/sheep/1cottage/priest specialist and still growing into other cottages. Much better. And I'm not worried about losing the RoK holy city anymore. I'm pretty sure I'll get it.

Here's boatmurdered on turn 43:

And here's Hindenburg:

The cottage Hindenburg is working can be worked by the capital too. When the capital grows to size 5, I'll give it the cottage, boosted by the turns already worked by the second city. I'll have more cottages ready for the second city by then.

Mysticism was teched on the EoT, so I'll be in anarchy next turn. I think I'll switch to apprenticeship and God King, but I'll keep in Religion. I don't plan to do another civic switch soon after this one, so, while Nationhood would give me a short term boost, it'll be worst once I get RoK, so I'll keep with religion, most likely.

Foreign News:

Sciz got himself a second city (the first opponent to do it). Here's the likely location:

Yup, there are some pretty good possible placings there (of course, good in this map standard).

Mardoc, on the other hand, built an Academy:

GSci + GNP spike = Academy. Bare in mind that a part of the spike is due to culture from the academy.

Here's the last mail I received from Mardoc. Basicly, he agrees to let me settle my desired third city spot:

Demographics:

The abismal production is Selrahc and his pirate coves (he's leading in GNP as a result). The crop disaster is Jkaen, since his the only one that I can't see the graphs. What is happening to the poor guy? Mardoc suggested a Mistform attack, but that doesn't explain the crop yield and the low health/happiness... Damn! I wish I had contact with Jkaen, I'm very curious about it.

Third City Planning:

What spot do you think it's best? A, B or C? I forgot the resource bubbles, so I've written the resource locations for you. I don't know if the lurkers can give opinions about this, but I'll leave it here, even if you can answer the question to me. I'll make a detailed post about each option advantages/disadvantages later.

End of Turn:

Mysticism completed, first hamlet and number 1 in score. It's not much, but it does give the feeling that I'm not playing that wrong. Maybe going for education first was the right call after all. Too early to tell, of course.

Any questions/requests?

Ravus Sol · May 31st, 2011, 18:26

Ichabod don't doubt yourself going cottages first seems to be paying off immensely right now never mind in the future.

If you time the new city for when you will found the religion I would say go for city C Position;
It's the best allround but needs the border pop to be at its best. Oasis for food and minor commerce (still a lot of commerce at this point). Allows you to put Plantations on both Incense and once the river is springed you can get the commerce bonus and irrigation if needed from down there.
I noticed it said 14 turns for a settler from the capital. So time wise this could work out well. AH>Mining>(Bulb WotE). But it's wether you find this the most profitable use as it seems to be a bit of work to juggle things around to get the city it's culture automatically.

City A; would be best if you need the city ASAP. Which you don't.
City B; seems like an aggressive move. Get that city and some roads and you could quickly be in the kurio heartlands.

-

Seeing as you are getting AH and Mining one after the other they could pop some horse/copper near enough you to be tempted somewhere else. Early Copper for dwarves is godly.

Ichabod · June 5th, 2011, 14:55

Well, the game keeps going at a slow pace and I'm back at diplomacy.

Managed to secure a non compete agreement with Dantski regarding RoK. He didn't want anything in return, just good will. And he asked me to convert to Order later in the game just to change my alignment to good (he said it is a role play thing... maybe he wants it to power up Basium), I could switch back after 5 turns. I agree on doing it during a golden age, to avoid the anarchy. So, I'll want to time it with the time I plan on switching to Fellowship of the Leaves.

Of course, without any dead lines established, it'll be very difficult for him to enforce the deal. I'm only going to do it if I'm in a golden age. I won't lose two turns of anarchy just for it... Guess I'll review my Great Person plans to accomplish this (won't lose much, I just have planned uses for 3 GPs, the following ones can be used for golden ages.

And I secured a deal to loan water mana: I'll loan law mana to Dantski for the time he needs to build the tower of divination (with some kind of time limit, like 25 turns) and I'll borrow water mana for 10 turns. I'm pretty happy with this outcome. Water mana is key for springing all the desert. I think Selrahc and Mardoc would want a lot more for their mana.

Ichabod · June 7th, 2011, 17:24

Turn 44-47:

Last report we managed to finish Mysticism in the end of turn. So, in the beggining of turn 44, we are greeted by the splashcreens:

This tech will give us a few benefits. First, the God King civic, which gives +50% production and gold (gold, not commerce) in the capital city. It will help with two very important things: settler production (the planned third city will be a MAJOR boost to our economy - two incense tyles = 14 commerce, even though they are desert - + Oasis and Sheep for food) and gold production (the 100 gold treshold explained before + keeping positive gold income with normal research, a must for the dwarves).

Second, I'll be able to build an elder council in the capital, netting +2 beakers per turn. Not a lot, but worth it, since I'll use the scientist specialist slot that it provides later. The second city will build a pagan temple (another building enabled by Mysticism) for the priest specialist slot.

Third, it's on the way to Way of the Earthmother (WotE) and the Runes of Kilmorph (RoK) religion.

The next prompt was the next tech to research:

I'm pretty happy with our current tech rate. It will get even better with more cottages being worked (albeit we are lacking food/happiness to do it in the capital and lacking food in the second city) and cottage growth. I really don't know how the other players want to get passed the bad terrain and manage to have a good economy. Selrahc will go coves + water resources + coast, so he'll be in pretty nice shape. Mardoc has an academy at the capital, which is nice, but he can't work that many cottages, for example, since he's screwed by the food bottleneck. Sciz probably settled his second city near the gold, so he'll likely go mining as next tech. The others are a big mistery...

I decided to go for Animal Husbandry. I need to make the second city grow and this means animal resources improved + border pop. That's why I'm building the monument. It will take a while, but it'll be worth it. The 3f/3h/1c cow tile will be a major boost and it's in the first ring!

Since teching things out of the path to WotE risk the RoK holy city, I turned my diplomatic efforts to secure non compete agreements regarding the religion. I already managed to get them from Mardoc, Dantski and Jkaen (Mardoc passed my message to him) and I'm working with Selrahc and Sciz. My techpath will depend on the outcome of this negotiations.

If everything goes well, WotE will fall on the tech list. I'll tech:

1st. Animal Husbandry

2nd. Mining (prerequisit for WotE and mines + copper location)/Exploration (road to the third city)/Calendar (improving the incense in the third city) -> I havent decided the order of these yet, it'll depend on the turns needed to finish anotehr settler.

3rd. Festivals - financial markets (only 20 hammers on quick), which give +3gold -1beaker and Carnivals. Haven't decided if I'm going to get it before or after WotE.

4th. Way of the Earthmother - I think I'll be near my happiness limit when I found RoK, raising my happy cap by at least 2 (with the religion civic).

And the planned tech path changed after these techs too (since I don't think I'll be attacking Mardoc). If I fear that someone is threating the RoK religion, I'll have to beeline it after AH, unfortunately. But lets not get ahead of ourselves.

Back to the actual game, we revolted to God King + Apprenticeship on turn 44. I decided to keep with the religion civic, like explained before. This goes to show why the spiritual trait is so good in FfH. You have so many civic choices that being able to change them at your leisure is a big boost.

After the Anarchy, on turn 45, we went to 100% gold as planned, which gave a 37 gold surplus per turn. We kept it at 100% gold on turn 46, giving us >100g jive

:

In the above pictures you can see the gold surplus. But I also posted them to highlight the forest/dye tile and the desert/forest tiles. These tiles aren't created normally by the map generator, so they are edited. I don't know if it means much, since it's obvious that the map was edited, but it's interesting to point out either way (yeah, our game is pretty boring, what can I do? alright

).

Turn 46 presented us a nice micro challenge. If I switched from a cottage tile to a farm in the capital, we could reach size 5 in the capital in the same turn we get >100g (what we need to make the dwarven vaults only give 1 unhapiness). Seems nice, doesn't it?

But, I ended up not doing it:

Anybody wants to guess why? I'll put the answer in spoilers:

So, I give you Boatmurdered on turn 47:

And Hindenburg, working two cottages (I'll end a farm on the cow tile next turn, then I'll work the farm + a cottage for faster growth):

Finally, overview of the empire. I'm going 100% research for this turn, since maybe then I'll be able to get AH in 5 turns (we have another cottage coming online next turn). Next turn it'll go down to 90%, which is the breakeven rate.

Demographics. Looking nice, in my opinion. I don't see how I could be better while playing the dwarves. I think they are one of the worst multiplayer picks... Don't know what I had in mind when I regarded them as pick options...

Well, I'm planning on doing some strategy posts later. What do you guys prefer to see first:

a) Great People plans
b) Tech plans
c) Third City placement and expansion plans

Please, give your vote and make this guy happy! There will be a diplomacy post coming shortly too, with some new deals I managed to do. I'll wait to see the Sciz and Selrahc diplomacy first, so I can make a more coherent post.

Rawkking Goodguy · June 7th, 2011, 21:03

Voting for a) Great People plans!

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