WW11 - Civilization

[Selrahc]

I wanted to go back and look at the scooter lynch day, because i remembered a post by Selrahc that was incredibly suspicious and was one of the things that really got me going. But first here's a quote from Scooter against Selrahc:

Lewwyn, you are hilariously predictable. Whenever somebody raises some suspicion against you, you decide to hit back as hard as possible. Ah well. I knew this would happen, so let's see what kind of "Dirt " you've dug up.

Later he uses this idea + the idea that Scooter could kill him at lynch with "vengeance" to switch his vote off Scooter.

Total lie. About such a recent event, that I have trouble believing that it is anything else.

Although interestingly enough, MJW does decide to switch off Scooter.

I very nearly changed my vote at this point! I almost thought Scooter has to be innocent after this. But I couldn't shake my feelings that Scooter was evil. If you don't believe me, believe Scooter.

Appeal to deceased villager. I don't think this is particularly innovative or persuasive, since even Lewwyn doesn't elaborate or comment upon the things scooter says. He just infodumps it and goes "See! A *villager* said that!".

I think we're overlooking the tech scan. Selrahc never said what his tech was until after Rowain had made it clear that he knew there were people with techs outside of Civ4.

Crap about the tech scan. Great argument... assuming we're on day 1 and have nothing to go on. Right now, it's a shameless push towards things that don't matter. My actions regarding my tech have been consistent since day 1. I haven't lied, and I've proved my ability. If anything, I'd say that weighs slightly in my favour. You're ultimately saying that I did what a villager would have done... but I might have done it as a wolf too. That isn't an argument. It's an attempt to nullify something inconvenient so you can bring up meaningless junk.



So in summary? Lies. An appeal to the dead. A weak flavour argument.

[slowcheetah]

Here he waffles on the vote explains both sides then agrees with Gaspar and Novice, basically buddying up. For me the kicker is the whole "I don't have any real info because I'm not caught up, but I have all these suspicions on these people anyway!" This is similar to most of his posts. There is a pattern of lurking, the showing up when called upon, and then disappearing again. He's doing a great job as the lurking scum.

So as I said I'm willing to lynch either Selrahc or Slowcheetah. But we do need consensus! If we split the vote on them we'll end up lynching another innocent.

You're rather twisting my words here Lewwyn, for a start 'Waffles', I pretty much said exactly what I was thinking at the time, ie. ignore conspiracy theories so Gaspar is probably innocent. Then proceeded to say who I thought was suspicious and which argument I agreed with the most 'the scooter one'. It wasn't the best structured post ever, but it wasn't waffling.

You then even more damningly imply I said "I don't have any real info because I'm not caught up, but I have all these suspicions on these people anyway!". When all I really said was I didn't have time for a thorough inspection (i.e. compiling quotes), and was just going on the main arguments present in the thread.

You then pick on my pattern of play, because I am not leading anyone. AGAIN, new to the game. new to the players. Following strong arguments other people make often seems the strongest play to me at this point. Sure, I could come up with a more complicated slant on everything and blacken the words. But I'd be working on erroneous knowledge of peoples playing styles.

Still, I don't feel this post is enough to make me change my vote, you could well be an innocent just trying to stengthen his argument. But if you guys lynch me and find me innocent, look at how lewwyn is spraying at the easy quiet target. Even as an afterthought in his posts about others guilt; sowing confusion.


Also Sareln, no vote, what the hell?

[Lewwyn]

Lewwyn, you are hilariously predictable. Whenever somebody raises some suspicion against you, you decide to hit back as hard as possible. Ah well. I knew this would happen, so let's see what kind of "Dirt " you've dug up.

Selrahc you're smart enough to see the way the winds are blowing. I've been saying I was going to vote for you for the last 3 days. I even did vote for you before voting scooter on scooter day. So the fact that you "raise suspicion against me today, is not surpirising. You're working to subtly try to discredit me since you know I was going to come after you. You have known because I"ve been nothing but obvious.

Total lie. About such a recent event, that I have trouble believing that it is anything else.

Although interestingly enough, MJW does decide to switch off Scooter.

You're right that you didn't switch. I misremembered and didn't check earlier. But the fact that you go out of your way to say I'm a liar is pretty damning IMO. I NEVER lie in these games as a villager and the only lie I ever tell when I'm scum is that I'm not scum. Lying is the easiest way to get caught in these games. It's better to say as much as possible while saying as little as possible. You know that. You've been doing it all game. Why would I lie about something that can easily be checked?

Appeal to deceased villager. I don't think this is particularly innovative or persuasive, since even Lewwyn doesn't elaborate or comment upon the things scooter says. He just infodumps it and goes "See! A *villager* said that!".

Damn straight. Everything Scooter said is something I believe in. I want people to actually read it. GO READ IT PEOPLE! I had forgotten it. The only reason I posted it was because I was struck by it when I went searching for your vote on Scooter and didn't want to make another post. Similarly I was struck by the Slowcheetah vote.

Also, I didn't realize we were getting style points for being innovative. Hopefully good arguments by cleared villagers are coming back in style though. I just think its funny that you are attacking the fact it as not innovative. Are you grasping at straws that much?

Crap about the tech scan. Great argument... assuming we're on day 1 and have nothing to go on. Right now, it's a shameless push towards things that don't matter. My actions regarding my tech have been consistent since day 1. I haven't lied, and I've proved my ability. If anything, I'd say that weighs slightly in my favour. You're ultimately saying that I did what a villager would have done... but I might have done it as a wolf too. That isn't an argument. It's an attempt to nullify something inconvenient so you can bring up meaningless junk.

It's a great argument any day of the game. Why? Because we had a scanner and we found something that didn't belong.

Are you saying that just because your ability worker like you said it would that that helps prove your innocence?? We all have small abilities assigned to us before Uber rolls the scum. Look back at other games he's done. Scum just have an extra set. Look at Ichabod. He simply has an extra ability tacked on to his mason ability. The fact that you have an ability and you explained it and it worked like you explained does NOT clear you or make you any less guilty.

So in summary? Lies. An appeal to the dead. A weak flavour argument.

Indeed. Again punctuating lies because my mistake is the easiest thing to knock down. You realize in debate class I teach students to go after the good points as well as the easy ones because when judged you get more points for knocking down the good arguments than you do for knocking down the weak ones? Your banging on the weak one, Selrahc. But your ignoring the argument about your vote for Scooter and the way in which you act as though its a bad idea and yet vote for Scooter anyway.

Thanks for responding. I always get a better read once I've engaged someone.

[uberfish]

MJW (3) - Cyneheard Selrahc Slowcheetah
Mardoc (2) - MJW Tasunke
Selrahc (2) - Lewwyn Novice
Slowcheetah (2) - Catwalk Gaspar
Cyneheard (1) - Mardoc

Not voting - Sareln

[Lewwyn]

You're rather twisting my words here Lewwyn, for a start 'Waffles', I pretty much said exactly what I was thinking at the time, ie. ignore conspiracy theories so Gaspar is probably innocent. Then proceeded to say who I thought was suspicious and which argument I agreed with the most 'the scooter one'. It wasn't the best structured post ever, but it wasn't waffling.

Wasn't the best structured post? You were meandering through lots of different voters lots of different suspicions.

You then even more damningly imply I said "I don't have any real info because I'm not caught up, but I have all these suspicions on these people anyway!". When all I really said was I didn't have time for a thorough inspection (i.e. compiling quotes), and was just going on the main arguments present in the thread.

I was more implying that you have been reading very closely and that you are simply saying you don't have time, when in fact, you know exactly whats going on because you're paying close attention. You ALWAYS know what going on and just when to pop up. You say you don't and that you're busy, but you're always right there to back up some arguments others have made. You also say:

You then pick on my pattern of play, because I am not leading anyone. AGAIN, new to the game. new to the players. Following strong arguments other people make often seems the strongest play to me at this point. Sure, I could come up with a more complicated slant on everything and blacken the words. But I'd be working on erroneous knowledge of peoples playing styles.

You say you aren't leading, that pretty obvious. Are you saying you don't know what to think? I think you do. I think that you're much much more invested and much more active then you pretend to be. Following strong arguments is great for a wolf. Scum always wants someone else to take the blame.

Still, I don't feel this post is enough to make me change my vote, you could well be an innocent just trying to stengthen his argument. But if you guys lynch me and find me innocent, look at how lewwyn is spraying at the easy quiet target. Even as an afterthought in his posts about others guilt; sowing confusion.

You make it sound like I'm only just now spraying at an easy target. I've been clamoring for your lynch for a long while now. Since Day 2 I believe. And yeah I put that bit in about you because I'm on to both you and Selrahc. I could have put it in a separate post but I wante dto put it out there asap.

Also Sareln, no vote, what the hell?

While I agree with the sentiment. You sad because he dropped off Mardoc and won't help you lynch another innocent instead of possibly yourself?

Right now I'm after both you and Selrahc. Problem is if you chase two birds you wind up losing both. I think I will have to put you aside for now. So much more to say. Very frustrating trying to herd cats.

[Selrahc]

But the fact that you go out of your way to say I'm a liar is pretty damning IMO.

You lied, or you sloppily went in with a smear without double checking it. Even a lie that gets discredited can serve a purpose. The purpose is to throw dirt, confuse events and form impressions.

What was most important to you was getting a smear up. Because you need something to base a counter attack around.

Damn straight. Everything Scooter said is something I believe in. I want people to actually read it. GO READ IT PEOPLE! I had forgotten it. The only reason I posted it was because I was struck by it when I went searching for your vote on Scooter and didn't want to make another post. Similarly I was struck by the Slowcheetah vote.

If you post something up and say "this", that isn't an argument. Particularly since I've talked about Scooters accusations before. Highlight points you agree with. Say why time makes them more convincing. Actually deign to put some work in and make a case, rather than a lazy scour of the thread for any half remembered half made up crap that paints me in a negative light.

Your argument reads more like a smear campaign than an argument. That is why I'm calling you out for hiding behind dead villagers, lies and fluff. Because at no point did *you* actually make a case.

[Lewwyn]

What was important was getting my thoughts about why I was suspicious of you down. I didn't lie.

Not going to swear. Going away now.

[Selrahc]

What was important was getting my thoughts about why I was suspicious of you down. I didn't lie.

If you didn't lie, then you did clumsily smear. The result is the same. That the act of smearing is more important than constructing a sound argument.

Not going to swear. Going away now.

Multi-layered. On the one hand, the last time I got in an argument with you in a werewolf game you called me a "lying sack of **** who deserves to die in real life" or something equally heinous. So I can believe that you need to cool off.

On the other hand, this could well be feigned. I don't think this argument is strong. I think it's lazy, lacking in substance and cobbled together. Taking some time to rally and come back with something better is a good option for a wolflewwyn. It also removes his need to defend opinions he doesn't actually have, and risk revealing things.

[slowcheetah]

Wasn't the best structured post? You were meandering through lots of different voters lots of different suspicions.

It was stream of consciousness written in a rush, it wasn't 'waffle' which is what I disputed and what you are now avoiding.

I was more implying that you have been reading very closely and that you are simply saying you don't have time, when in fact, you know exactly whats going on because you're paying close attention. You ALWAYS know what going on and just when to pop up. You say you don't and that you're busy, but you're always right there to back up some arguments others have made.

How was anybody was supposed to read that from you impersonating me saying: "I don't have any real info because I'm not caught up, but I have all these suspicions on these people anyway!" ???
I have been busy,so, I haven't been digging quotes out from 100 odd pages of back catalogue. I have been following along though, otherwise why would I sign up? Other's people's arguments have generally seemed better because they actually have the quotes to back them.

You say you aren't leading, that pretty obvious. Are you saying you don't know what to think? I think you do. I think that you're much much more invested and much more active then you pretend to be. Following strong arguments is great for a wolf. Scum always wants someone else to take the blame.

But following strong arguments is also good for villagers. They provide the best basis for consensus to lynch.

You make it sound like I'm only just now spraying at an easy target. I've been clamoring for your lynch for a long while now. Since Day 2 I believe. And yeah I put that bit in about you because I'm on to both you and Selrahc. I could have put it in a separate post but I wante dto put it out there asap.

I'm saying that if you were a wolf you could have identified me as an easy target early on, and lay down ground work for an eventual lynch. I probably wouldn't be the first to go due to my quiet nature but in the middle of the game I'd be pretty easy to make a case for a crucial mislynch. You spray it everywhere to add to the aura of suspicion and also give yourself some backup.
'Damn we've lynched an innocent I pushed for, but I'm sure slowcheetah was a wolf he just hasn't quite got enough votes yet'.

I am not changing my vote to you, because your actions could equally be a villager trying to get someone suspicious lynched. My 'if you were a wolf' argument whiffs of crazy conspiracy theory more than my current vote on MJW due to his weird power role shenanigans.

However, if I do get lynched I think the village should look carefull at Lewwyn.

While I agree with the sentiment. You sad because he dropped off Mardoc and won't help you lynch another innocent instead of possibly yourself?

So just because you are suspicious of me, pointing out a rather obviously strange comment makes me a wolf?

[Catwalk]

slowcheetah, my main suspicion of you (as pointed out earlier) is that I don't believe you came up with all the material for your accusations of me on your own. Combined with fairly sporadic contributions otherwise, it looks a lot to me like someone was coaching you on that campaign.

I agree with Lewwyn's lie argument. I think Selrahc is stretching that particular issue, especially since the core of Lewwyn's argument was valid. I'm highly likely to vote for slowcheetah or Selrahc tonight, still preferring slowcheetah over Selrahc.