[NO PLAYERS] Lurking and Mapmaking PB55

[Old Harry]

I (personally, not in any official sense) don't think you get to decide turn order unless you're making a war declaration this turn.

This is because if you and your opponent both decide playing second is best for you there's no way of deciding who is right or forcing someone to play short of letting the clock run out. If you both play chicken the clock slows down and the game speed suffers. If your opponent chooses not to play chicken then they are disadvantaged and you are rewarded for playing clock games.

Anyone think this is an unreasonable position?

[Old Harry]

FWIW, I think Lewwyn is in the right here. Turnsplits aren't only for actual wars, but also for other tense turns such as settler races. Given the geopolitical situation I think it's good play for them to settle out a turn split early, and they have indeed taken pains to play behind Superdeath for at least 5 turns. Lewwyn is also right that SD is usually very quick to add time whenever the situation favors him, but he didn't do it this time.

As for Jowy's comment that it wasn't communicated, I remember reading here something along the lines of "you should be able to tell when someone turnsplits you".

If both sides think they should play second in the forthcoming war how do we choose? If we go with previous turn precedent (which I think is what Lewwyn and Noble think is right) then people will start playing clock games on contact.

[Tarkeel]

Reposting this from Ruff/Civac's thread

It seems like all I ever post is adverts for this thread

Honestly, I'm too noob at pitboss for my opinion to matter that much, and I had forgotten that the etiquette thread states that it's ok for the defender to double-move. From reading the last few PBs, it seems like I'm not the only one who forgets this. Another issue comes when you are expecting a three-way war such as this, where Lewwyn is suspecting that Amicalola will declare as soon as war starts with SD. But then I guess they would have to take SD's side in the war?

[Old Harry]

Reposting this from Ruff/Civac's thread

It seems like all I ever post is adverts for this thread

Honestly, I'm too noob at pitboss for my opinion to matter that much, and I had forgotten that the etiquette thread states that it's ok for the defender to double-move. From reading the last few PBs, it seems like I'm not the only one who forgets this.

I think we just have a lot of people who've forgotten Lord Parkin. I'm always happy to change what the etiquette thread says if someone puts a good argument in there. But this doesn't seem like that argument.

Another issue comes when you are expecting a three-way war such as this, where Lewwyn is suspecting that Amicalola will declare as soon as war starts with SD. But then I guess they would have to take SD's side in the war?

I don't think they do - unless they each only have one play window it should be possible to schedule this. Most 3-way wars have 3-way splits without a lot of fuss. And if not in the past we've gone to a 36 hour clock.

Lewwyn is also right that SD is usually very quick to add time whenever the situation favors him, but he didn't do it this time.

I think this is a particularly unfair ad hominem attack (presumably from Noble who hates how chaotic SD is) - SD volunteers to help with game admin consistently and conscientiously and if his neighbour is playing clock games without declaring war I don't think he's obliged to enable them.

[Old Harry]

I should point out that Lewwyn doesn't think he's playing clock games if it sounds like I'm accusing him of that. He's doing what he thinks is best for the game. I disagree, but it'd be good to have someone else who agrees with him to argue the point because I'm just so tired of Noble's endless whining about SD that I think I may not be entirely impartial.

[Charriu]

Ok I think we have multiple things to discuss here.

1. The situation at hand:

Yes, turnsplits aren't only for actual wars. Best example for this is a settler race. But like OH said, you should be able to choose your half when declaring war. Honestly I don't know what to do here. Lewwyn never communicated a turnsplit or declared war to force a turnsplit, which is the cause for the whole mess. We have to rightful claims clashing with each other: SDs claim to take second half and Lewwyns claim to establish a peace turn split.

But one thing is at least clear. We need to reload to the last turn, so that Lewwyn can play. But we need to ask civac if anything happened preventing a reload for him.

2. How did it come to this situation and what can be done to prevent it in the future:


This problem happened because people do not communicate enough.

As for Jowy's comment that it wasn't communicated, I remember reading here something along the lines of "you should be able to tell when someone turnsplits you".

We have seen multiple times that this does not work. You can not assume that the other one knows you are in a turn split especially when people are in different time-zones. Honestly what is the problem in sending a short PM saying "We are in a turnsplit and I am taking first/second half". If hit helps I could also look into adding a trade item to communicate taking the first or second half in-game.


3. Superdeath abusing his admin powers:

Yes, I agree that SDs move wasn't the right way to respond as an admin. At the same time I think the claim to remove him from admin duty is not justified. SD and I are admin for almost all games since we switched to PBSpy around PB42. SD always was quick to add time, pause the game or do all the stuff not only for him, but for others too and unrequested. Sometimes he is even too quick to add time. So far he never showed a misbehaviour in his admin duty similar to this. I understand that Lewwyn is angry and his anger is justified, but so far SD has always shown good sportsmanship in all his games even the ones he lost miserably.

[Tarkeel]

Lewwyn is also right that SD is usually very quick to add time whenever the situation favors him, but he didn't do it this time.

I think this is a particularly unfair ad hominem attack (presumably from Noble who hates how chaotic SD is) - SD volunteers to help with game admin consistently and conscientiously and if his neighbour is playing clock games without declaring war I don't think he's obliged to enable them.

My apologies, that's not what I intended it to be. His chaotic nature also rubs me the wrong way, but I try my  best to ignore it.

You aren't at war are you?

FWIW we would be fine declaring war this turn if that makes it easier.

Given this, I think the best resolution would be:

1. Reload to Amicalola's logout
   
2. Lewwyn plays, declares war and claims second half
   
3. SD plays, and gets a double-move.
   

Obviously the full list with the war declaration shouldn't be posted publicly.

[Tarkeel]

1. The situation at hand:

Yes, turnsplits aren't only for actual wars. Best example for this is a settler race. But like OH said, you should be able to choose your half when declaring war. Honestly I don't know what to do here. Lewwyn never communicated a turnsplit or declared war to force a turnsplit, which is the cause for the whole mess. We have to rightful claims clashing with each other: SDs claim to take second half and Lewwyns claim to establish a peace turn split.

I revoke my argument about peacetime turnsplits, I misremembered the etiquette post and OH has convinced me that we don't want to encourage this.

3. Superdeath abusing his admin powers:

Yes, I agree that SDs move wasn't the right way to respond as an admin. At the same time I think the claim to remove him from admin duty is not justified. SD and I are admin for almost all games since we switched to PBSpy around PB42. SD always was quick to add time, pause the game or do all the stuff not only for him, but for others too and unrequested. Sometimes he is even too quick to add time. So far he never showed a misbehaviour in his admin duty similar to this. I understand that Lewwyn is angry and his anger is justified, but so far SD has always shown good sportsmanship in all his games even the ones he lost miserably.

I did not mean that SD should be removed from admin duty, just that this single instance was atypical from his previous behavior. As you say, usually he's a bit too quick to add time.

When you're admin for a game in which you are playing, you should take pains to avoid your admin-powers becoming an issue, which I think he's been good at doing on previous occasions.

[Charriu]

3. Superdeath abusing his admin powers:

Yes, I agree that SDs move wasn't the right way to respond as an admin. At the same time I think the claim to remove him from admin duty is not justified. SD and I are admin for almost all games since we switched to PBSpy around PB42. SD always was quick to add time, pause the game or do all the stuff not only for him, but for others too and unrequested. Sometimes he is even too quick to add time. So far he never showed a misbehaviour in his admin duty similar to this. I understand that Lewwyn is angry and his anger is justified, but so far SD has always shown good sportsmanship in all his games even the ones he lost miserably.

I did not mean that SD should be removed from admin duty, just that this single instance was atypical from his previous behavior. As you say, usually he's a bit too quick to add time.

When you're admin for a game in which you are playing, you should take pains to avoid your admin-powers becoming an issue, which I think he's been good at doing on previous occasions.

It was more a response to Lewwyn's claim to remove SD. I know you didn't demand that. I think we should at least wait for civac to respond, before we decide. You solution of

1. Reload to Amicalola's logout
   
2. Lewwyn plays, declares war and claims second half
   
3. SD plays, and gets a double-move.
   

Sounds good so far. As for the "admin abuse". I volunteer to tell SD that this wasn't the right thing to do and to tell Lewwyn that his claim of removing SD as admin is not justified. But that's for after the situation is handled.

[Serdoa]

I think the way you outlined is a try to save a bad situation by giving both parties part of what the want. But going very strictly by the rules, SD played before Lewwyn. He just decided to not log out after he did (and apparently did so fully knowing and understanding that it meant there was not logout-save of him to roll the turn back to...). Lewwyn just missed his turn - which he should not be punished for, because SD 

- did not log out, accepting that someone might bounce off him and could not play for that reason AND
- knew that someone had not played the turn yet AND
- had the power to add time but decided not to for selfish reasons

Sorry, but that is just bad behavior that - no matter if you want second half or not - is not ok, and it should not be rewarded by getting a double-move.

SD also obviously realized that Lewwyn did play his turns after him for several turns now. Given the state of affairs, it is not unreasonable to assume he knew they were going to war and observed a turn-split to not double-move him. If he had intended to declare this turn, he could choose the turn-half he wants, but he hasn't. And by the rules:

3. The person declaring war can choose which half of the turn timer they get, so long as they didn't move after the victim on the previous turn.

Therefore it is however attacks first choice which half they take.

6. In a peace-time turn split (eg a settling or hut-popping race) the turn you realise there should be a split is when the order is established.

Both parties realized that there should be a split (or that there in fact is one). Which makes sense given the state of the game. If SD had an issue with that, he should tell it. I really have a hard time having pity with players that clearly realize that someone adheres to a turn-split with them, don't communicate if they have an issue with the split and then start being upset when the other party actually plays according to that turn-split.

4. Don't try to play after another player on a regular basis. If you are trying to prevent them getting the second half when they attack you then you're playing clock games and Krill will find your pathetic civ and crush it. If you are planning to attack them then just drop behind them one or two turns in advance (it's actually less likely to telegraph your intentions). In fact you can play before them the turn before you attack - there is no problem with letting your victim double move you.

Lewwyn didn't try to play after SD on a regular basis, but to adhere to a turn-split, so the first half of that rule was not broken (not that this part is an actual rule). But also they did not try to prevent SD from getting the second half IF SD attacked them, but to setup a turn-split that would make sure that their planned attack would not lead to double-moves.

In closing: If SD wanted the second half, he should not have played himself but add time / pause and state that he will wait for them to play. But he clearly had realized that he was already in a turn-split with them, did not want to declare war but wanted to not let them have the second half when they attack. Breaking pretty clearly rule no. 6. He added bad sportsmanship on top, by not only making them miss their turn but also risk reloading to an early save than his in order to get his way - even to the detriment of all other players of this game.