Learning Capria FFH SG

[kjn]

That's fair criticism, but where exactly is that threat going to come from?

For the first, there were the four lizardmen that our scout and warrior encountered in the west. Yes, so they are out there. We just happens to be screened by the bears and the mountains to the west, and Amelanchier and Os-Gabella in the south.

For the second, this is turn 100. The threat level is much higher now than it was on turn 70. That is, I'm afraid any threat we will encounter will be much harder to deal with than a slow stream of lizards or goblins, but actual stacks.

For the third, Os-Gabella and Amelanchier has power levels that are quite close to us. But they also have smaller empires - Os-Gabella has seven or eight warriors for two cities. Right now I'd peg our forces before we founded T-O as barely adequate (ten warriors for three cities), but now they're below what I would view as the minimum (since we still have ten warriors but four cities now).

For the fourth, our empire is also more spread out than when we first planned, in that it will take one-movers two turns to move to T-O or Trinity instead of one. That also pushes up the garrisons needed.

For the fifth, we've just finished a major expansion push, founding two cities. While the new cities get their infrastructure in place, Torrolerial can focus on military so the new cities can be secure, and we are well placed for another expansion (either into unclaimed land or into Os-Gabella).

See, I knew there was something I had forgotten. Admittedly I hadn't built any military to take advantage of the XP bonus, but still, this sucks a bit.

If you had two-turned warriors basic warriors instead of one-turning them with 2 XP then this would've been true, but now you haven't built any military in the first place, so it isn't too bad.

Now, see, the problem with this forum software is that I only get an email to check this thread ONCE, and then nothing until I check it again. Why couldn't we have mentioned this in big, bold writing?

Yeah, we should all try to improve on our planning and reporting, and be better on separating long- and short-term plans.

Anyway, we'll still get the religion (FFH religious techs *always* give a disciple unit of the given religion - we just missed the holy city). I just didn't bank on RoK only giving gold, not culture per city. That really bites! It sucks even more because initially I had Bronze Working selected, but then thought "weren't we going for RoK?" and switched. Rather annoyed.
[SIZE="1"]I never really use RoK myself - I prefer to rush Trade, grab either CoS or Empy, or if I'm playing elves, then I would beeline FoL.[/SIZE]

I think RoK fits us rather well here. Temples of Kilmorph means we don't have to build markets, Stonewardens give a minor combat buff, and it enables Arete and the Mines of Gal'Dur. The latter is probably what I view as the real prize of the religion.

But it also means we will have to get culture another way.

After we get the Mines of Gal'Dur, I think we should look to switch to another state religion (though we can found them earlier, of course).

Could we turn this to our advantage, and try to convert Amelanchier to the same religion, and thus giving us the diplomacy boost we'd need to smash Os-Gabella? Or would it just be better to switch straight to BW first and get the religion later? Disciples themselves can be very useful for early border expansion, too.

Converting Amelanchier would require OB, so we're a bit away from there still.

Disciples convert 60 hammers to 20 culture. I think that's mostly interesting in that it also ends the resistance in a city. I'd rather use a Soldier of Kilmorph and a chop to get a monument real quickly, I think, if the goal is to get some culture going.

Yeah. RoK actually gets us Sons of Kilmorph, which are Str4, can use all weapon upgrades, and only require the religion in a given city. That was my thinking, rather than needing to build Training Yards everywhere, we'd just spread RoK everywhere.

On the other hand, going bronze first would've magically made all our warriors Str 4 at once, without any further hammer investment. And the SoKs are quite expensive, and unlike Radiant Guards they're not draftable.

And we don't need training yards everywhere. Get one in Torrolerial, and it can build Axemen for the entire empire (and upgrade warriors). I hope we can avoid building a single military unit out of Vallus for the entire game. With the copper, Trinity actually has decent production, so maybe we should put an archery range there? T-O will be a naval base.

[Brian Shanahan]

Yep. Horsemen are quite decent units. If you can get Flanking 3 on them I imagine they're monsters when upgraded to HAs.

Horse Archers are fantastic. Good strength, awesome mobility, can be upgraded from warriors or scouts (ie you can get those melee- or recon-only promotions), uses an early-game resource, and it's an easy to get the tech. I imagine they will be our main heavy hitter mid- and end-game.

I found out a nice trick for horse archers if you're playing Balseraphs. They upgrade from freaks as well, allowing you to get Iron equipped HA's (promo is kept) if you do so wish (EitB was where I found it so not sure if it works in base). That's one of the reasons I was going with Keelyn in the aborted PBEM.

[haphazard1]

Copper right there by Trinity. Lucky, lucky. And you've kept it out of Os-Gabella's hands, too.

The GNP graph looks very nice, big surge for the Bannor. Amelanchier has also seen a significant uptick, maybe some resources or perhaps he is starting to build cottages? Endain is down, probably due to costs from expansion. Os-G flat for a very long time, what is she doing?

Endain is scary on the food, hammers, and especially power charts. I have to agree with kjn that your line being flat (and even a bit down) for some time is not good. More military is needed to keep the AIs from thinking improper thoughts about your territory. Having so little barb troubles has maybe actually been a negative here, as you have not had triggers to push you to build more units.

Also, can someone explain the whole deal with the bear and cultural borders? I did not understand what was happening with that.

[Hart]

Also, can someone explain the whole deal with the bear and cultural borders? I did not understand what was happening with that.

Animal units don't ever enter cultural borders to attack units. To be more specific, if a tile has a civ's culture in/on it, it won't consider (edit) that tile as a viable option for pathfinding. When borders expand, and a barb unit is caught inside it, the AI won't see a way to move to attack a vulnerable unit, without already going through a tile that has culture in it.

kjn: Okay, so, what's the plan henceforth? Have you got an updated micro chart/excel? I'd love to play with some data/thoughts.

[haphazard1]

Animal units don't ever enter cultural borders to attack units. To be more specific, if a tile has a civ's culture in/on it, it won't consider (edit) that tile as a viable option for pathfinding. When borders expand, and a barb unit is caught inside it, the AI won't see a way to move to attack a vulnerable unit, without already going through a tile that has culture in it.

I understood that animals would not enter culture -- which is why most of my troops spend their time cowering inside my own territory. Of course they all claim it is because they don't want to incur more support costs, but we all know the truth.

But if animals can not (or will not) pathfind through culture-controlled tiles, then wouldn't an animal "caught" as borders expand still be free to walk out into the wild territory? They would only be truly caught if fully surrounded by culture. With the bear moving after the settler party, that is what seemed to happen.

[kjn]

I found out a nice trick for horse archers if you're playing Balseraphs. They upgrade from freaks as well, allowing you to get Iron equipped HA's (promo is kept) if you do so wish (EitB was where I found it so not sure if it works in base). That's one of the reasons I was going with Keelyn in the aborted PBEM.

Like Keelyn wasn't broken already... But according to Xienwolf's manual, freaks don't get metal promotions. Will have to check that.

Yeah, promotions and cross-line upgrades can lead to some quite powerful units. Rangers with March and Medic (from Disciple of Leaves); CR or March Rathas (from Radiant Guards); HAs with March...

Copper right there by Trinity. Lucky, lucky. And you've kept it out of Os-Gabella's hands, too.

Yes. Not the absolute best placement, but more than good enough. Now Trinity also looks like a much better city, with decent production and commerce potential. Maybe make it our archer central, aiming for 12H base production (copper, city tile, 2 mined hills, 1 cottage hill)?

The GNP graph looks very nice, big surge for the Bannor. Amelanchier has also seen a significant uptick, maybe some resources or perhaps he is starting to build cottages? Endain is down, probably due to costs from expansion. Os-G flat for a very long time, what is she doing?

Which is worrying. Especially with our southern borders being good buddies with each other.

Endain is scary on the food, hammers, and especially power charts. I have to agree with kjn that your line being flat (and even a bit down) for some time is not good. More military is needed to keep the AIs from thinking improper thoughts about your territory. Having so little barb troubles has maybe actually been a negative here, as you have not had triggers to push you to build more units.

What I'm thinking too. Not having barbs around also means we lack veteran units.

Also, can someone explain the whole deal with the bear and cultural borders? I did not understand what was happening with that.

What Hart said. I also think that if there is a tile without culture that it can move to, it will do so. *checks map* It won't get to our horse resource.

kjn: Okay, so, what's the plan henceforth? Have you got an updated micro chart/excel? I'd love to play with some data/thoughts.

Nope, I haven't done anything with the micro spreadsheet. It was mostly there to prove the feasibility of my build plan. Feel free to continue on it, if you want to.

I haven't checked the save, but we're behind from where I had hoped we would be. I had envisioned the turn thusly:

1. Get Great Sage for Academy; switch civics
   
2. Finish settler with chop.
   
3. Build warriors in Torrolerial.
   
4. Found Magenta, and speed up the monument with chops.
   
5. Pick up later chops in Torrolerial with buildings (like a granary).

Now we have unfinished infrastructure (Pagan Temple and Granary) in Torrolerial, incoming chops, and too little military. If we had gotten at least two trained warriors out of Torrolerial I'd have been less concerned, but now it feels like a development trainwreck...

One thing I've started to appreciate here, that I knew I was bad at before, is city specialisation and working for the good of the empire first.

Vallus is our only city with excellent commerce potential, so we have to make the most out of that. If we can get buildings in there without having to move off commerce tiles, we should do so, and it should never build a single unit. T-O can pick up two resources we need badly, but it will need a monument to do so. Trinity is pulling its weight, getting a monument via chops so it can pick up the vines, enabling other cities to grow.

What Torrolerial contributes to the empire is production, but that has been frittered away on medium-term infrastructure. We could have gotten the settler from Torrolerial on turn 96, thus speeding up our access to horses and fish. We could have trained three or four one-turn warriors, to help secure the other cities, and then built a granary or something else.

[Hart]

I understood that animals would not enter culture -- which is why most of my troops spend their time cowering inside my own territory. Of course they all claim it is because they don't want to incur more support costs, but we all know the truth.

But if animals can not (or will not) pathfind through culture-controlled tiles, then wouldn't an animal "caught" as borders expand still be free to walk out into the wild territory? They would only be truly caught if fully surrounded by culture. With the bear moving after the settler party, that is what seemed to happen.

Yes that is exactly what happened. Now it is surrounded by what the AI thinks is impassable terrain!

So after re-reading what happened with that stack of lizardmen... and thinking about how far apart the civilizations are, especially in that part of the map... Vallus is probably quite vulnerable right now. I'm not too concerned about Trinity - didn't see any barbarians *at all*, nor any lairs down south while scouting, and I'm sure that Os-Gabella's land would be the target of any barbs that way (right?).

There actually is one lair that we can see - on the landmass/island visible from the forest near Letum Frigus.

I'm considering some possible worker micro to try and pump out as many 1-turn warriors as I can.

Some questions:

1. How important is it for Terrolerial to grow at all, at this point? If its not that important, I'll calculate as if we'd switched from the corn to a forest hill tile.
   
2. If Vallus is vulnerable then, isn't T-O? Should the two standby warriors in the middle of the empire move to garrison at Vallus, or split for one each at Vallus and T-O?
   
3. Do we have a number of units per city that we should be aiming for? 3 each with a reserve of 3?
   

[kjn]

So after re-reading what happened with that stack of lizardmen... and thinking about how far apart the civilizations are, especially in that part of the map... Vallus is probably quite vulnerable right now. I'm not too concerned about Trinity - didn't see any barbarians *at all*, nor any lairs down south while scouting, and I'm sure that Os-Gabella's land would be the target of any barbs that way (right?).

Yes. Any barbs coming our way will hit Vallus first. It might not need a big garrison, but we should at least be able to reinforce it quickly. Trinity is screened by Os-Gabella and Amelanchier. The threat level and pattern there is quite different.

1. How important is it for Terrolerial to grow at all, at this point? If its not that important, I'll calculate as if we'd switched from the corn to a forest hill tile.
   
2. If Vallus is vulnerable then, isn't T-O? Should the two standby warriors in the middle of the empire move to garrison at Vallus, or split for one each at Vallus and T-O?
   
3. Do we have a number of units per city that we should be aiming for? 3 each with a reserve of 3?
   

Depends on the health/happy limits, and the available quality tiles. I can't check the save right now, but right now I don't think growth there should be prioritised.

Good question. *checks map* Two-movers (ie lizards) on the tile 1NW of Vallus can one-move to the sheep, and then threaten T-O. But I think it's more important to get a sizable central reserve, so we can reinforce either Vallus or T-O or Trinity.

Depends. I think two military units per city is the baseline for a garrison. Then maybe some warriors to protect workers on the edges. Then a reserve that can handle a worst-case scenario at the time, say three or four lizards right now. I'd say we'd need 12-14 warriors right now total.

[Hart]

So that's 4 ASAP. At least.

It's actually quite trivial! I'll post an image/screenshot explaining the plan soon. Trinity's development might be slowed down slightly, but you'll get your warriors.

[kjn]

So that's 4 ASAP. At least.

It's actually quite trivial! I'll post an image/screenshot explaining the plan soon. Trinity's development might be slowed down slightly, but you'll get your warriors.

Yeah, but ASAP is not the same as now. And the more we talk, the more my spider-sense is tingling.

Of course we can get warriors quickly, since Torrolerial can one-turn them. But wasn't there chops incoming there, that'd be better put to infrastructure (one of my rules of thumbs - chops should go to expansion or infrastructure), and that will risk losing overflow?

And slowing down the development on Trinity should be avoided at all costs, too. It has cottages, silk, wines, and copper to grow into! By getting the wines and silk online, Vallus can grow in size and use more cottages.

Put another way, mature production cities help the empire by founding and then shielding other cities. Developing cities help the empire by expanding to claim necessary resources.