October 1st, 2013, 19:42
(This post was last modified: October 1st, 2013, 19:48 by Oxyphenbutazone.)
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Well commerce in the city you build the academy will always increase as you grow pop and cottages, so I'm not sure how valid that argument is. Same with saving gold, that's just smart manipulation of your empire's total research modifier.
What the actual trade-off is, is it worth growing the city to size 5 to work the gold when running the scientists for 9 turns, or not. Growing the city to size 5 would delay the academy maybe 5 turns, so does the benefit from the academy from those 5 turns outweigh the benefits of growing to size 5 and working the gold? You would be working the gold for the 9 turns when running the scientists, so that's 27 hammers and 63 commerce from the gold mine. The scientists produce the same amount of beakers and the research multiplier from the library cancels out in both scenarios. So the question is, does the 5 turn delay in the academy justify working the gold for 9 extra turns? Using your estimates, the academy is worth an average of 5bpt for those 5 turns, so that's 25 bpt versus 63 cpt(modified to approx. 71 bpt with library and 50% average slider) and 27 hammers. I'm making some simplifications there, but overall it seems like it would be more optimal to grow to size 5.
Idk, maybe I'm completely wrong, but that's how I would view it
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Hmm, interesting discussion, always open to ways I could have done this better.
When you say grow to size 5 do you mean at size 4 i'm working cows+wheat+gold+scientist? Or that I should be working a food tile (cottage i guess) to grow to size 5 faster?
I think the delaying thing mattes because it means the academy is worth more than "I break even at 50" would assume, its not that I couldn't do that working the gold, its just that the ability to do that makes the academy worth more per turn than quick-and-dirty math would indicate.
I think the math you had also ignored the beakers from the scientist? The gold is only worth 4 more (5 if you include library multiplication) than the scientist is, not 7*1.25. 5*9 = 45. I'm also unclear (not saying you're wrong just not understanding) how I work the gold for 9 more turns while only delaying the academy 5 turns. It seems like those two numbers should be the same (unless you mean work the gold in way earlier, in which case the relationship is more complicated by I don't think 9 to 5).
Fear cuts deeper than swords.
October 1st, 2013, 20:34
(This post was last modified: October 1st, 2013, 20:44 by Oxyphenbutazone.)
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This is a pretty complex question, but basically you have a City X, at size 4 with 14/28 in the box on turn 0. There are two alternatives to get an GS here. One is your current one, let's call it approach A, working the wheat, cows and 2 scientists. This will get you a GS eot7 and produces 2 fpt for 7 turns, producing a total of 14 food, this lets you grow to size 5 eot6, then you pick up the gold. The other, approach B, is where you work the wheat, cows, gold and cottage for 4 turns, producing 16 food and growing to size 5 eot3. Then, you work the wheat, cow, gold and 2 scientists for a GS produced eot11.
The numbers don't line up because one set up is being played out only to eot8, while the other to eot11. So, if you want them to line up, then play out your approach to eot11. So let's say that in approach A once the GS is produced, you adopt a configuration of gold, cows, wheat, cottage, ivory for 4 turns until eot11. So let's compare:
The scientist beakers don't matter because they produce equal amounts in both approaches, so we can disregard them here. The multiplier from the library makes the math on the earlier academy slightly less favorable, but the result is just a few beakers here or there.
Approach A:
Total Food: 14(When at size 4)+12(Food when growing after GS is produced)= 26f
Total Hammers: 48(Center Tile+Cows+Wheat)+15(Gold from turn 7 onward)+12(Ivory after turn 8)= 72h
Total Commerce: 12(Center Tile)+35(Gold from turn 7 onwards)+4(Ivory after turn 8)+4(Cottage after turn 8, doesn't matter if it's more developed as the cottage is counted as the same in both approaches)+20(Raw commercial output of academy for extra 4 turns)=75c
Approach B:
Total Food: 16(When growing to size 5)+0(When producing GS)= 16f
Total Hammers: 48(Center Tile+Cows+Wheat)+36(Gold)= 84h
Total Commerce: 12(Center Tile)+96(Gold)+4(Cottage when growing to size 5)=112c
So Approach A is a little behind on production, a little ahead on food and significantly worse on commerce. This makes sense, because B works the gold a lot more and gold represents a trade-off between food and production+commerce. The extra commerce from the earlier academy puts a dent into this disparity, but it does not make up for it.
Approach A varies slightly from you approach in game, because apparently some of the GP bar is already filled up, but the general trend should be the same.
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Hmm, ok, I'm reasonably convinced now I definitely did this sub-optimally, I think I'll stick through it just doing scientists at this point since I certainly wouldn't have decided to switch on my own. I think the 35 beaker gap is smaller than indicates because of the surrounding issues (capital will be at 24 commerce at that point + earlier manipulation of sliders + extant gpp), but yeah, it doesn't make up 35.
Fear cuts deeper than swords.
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I offered peace. TBS and Jowy have been posting a lot in their thread (and have logged into the game), I'm going to go in and get screenshots / see if they accepted or reoffered in a bit.
Fear cuts deeper than swords.
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They had refused it (not unexpected if they just want to look around and then talk about it). I reoffered without demanding their world map, revealing the few tiles around them I don't already know isn't worth much either way.
The net odds are somewhat complicated if they decided to attack my stack this turn (pictures coming I promise... I'm lazy right now) but I'm pretty sure in my favor for an outright victory and decisively in my favor for a hammers-lost victory. I actually kind of hope they attack and give me, if only momentarily, a 10xp unit. Save me 4gpt + unlock heroic epic.
Fear cuts deeper than swords.
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Ok, here's the turn overview. In general transitioning out of the war. TBS logged in, refused peace, then logged out without ending turn, I imagine to mull it over. I reoffered without demanding the World Map. I think this is roughly the ideal point to stop (obviously all you lurkers know if I'm right or wrong about this given you can see TBS's troops dispositions, but, this the best to stop. The logic:
1) I don't think I can take a city at this point, he's got 7+ archers wandering around on roads. I bet I could outmanuever some of them, but not all, combined with emergency whips means there won't be easy shots.
2) Objective of force him to focus on military has been achieved, and in a quite ideal manner. He's built a ton of archers, units very weak on offense and good on defense. IE - units that aren't great for coming and annoying me back.
3) I want to leave him a "peaceful way out" so to speak. Ideally I have no conflict for the next 50 turns or so. I'm not sure how prone TBS is to revenge, but I want him in (careful/defensive probably) builder mode now. IDK if this is possible, but I'll accept peace and then maybe offer a map trade or something, or a 1gp gift after I get currency. Positive signals here. I'll out expand him and take his land down the road.
4) I don't think there will be any more easy tile pillages, he's got those hills guarded tight.
5) If the war continues he's forced to keep building military units. Eventually this means I have to counterbalance him and build my own additional military (he has to get a strategic resources SOMETIME, though apparently not yet). Don't want to do that.
Anyway: the pictures
The warzone.
South City:
Chariot there is being built partially just cause I want the city to be size 5, partially because I'll send it down south scouting. I need to see the rest of this continent.
Spearman in EC isn't going to be finished, I grow this turn, then I'll shift to a settler. 5t settler in fact (nice). Load him up on a whipped/chopped galley and there's the island city.
Resembool grows to size 3 and finishes spear. I'm not actually positive what it should do next. Either just slow build the granary while working cottages (this city sucks, yes, I know) or switch to a worker.
Riole is going to get to size 3, then shift to a settler to go up and settle the silver.
Doing the math right now on what grows the new city fastest. It might be work the copper mine and chop in a granary before growing much at all.
Fear cuts deeper than swords.
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TBS has logged in, gonna check up on it again. I should be doing mah CS pset but... one more turn...
Fear cuts deeper than swords.
Posts: 1,778
Threads: 12
Joined: Jun 2013
Fear cuts deeper than swords.
Posts: 1,778
Threads: 12
Joined: Jun 2013
So looks like I'm going to get my city raze after all. Unless he has units hidden just in the fog (I guess its possible, but if he were willing to suicide 8 archers and an ax would he really leave any additional ones behind? Seems like an odd place to call it quits) I think I get to just walk in unopposed.
From there, I'll need to decide whether I go and try to raze sleeper (keeping sleeper would maaaaybe be a possibility but I doubt it) or turn around and threaten the capital. Pretty sure I'm going to pick sleeper, that high pop and 60% defense means slaved archers are pretty dang tough for my to crack, especially with my mostly-wounded army. Maybe it's worth sending a chariot back 1 space to check out how he defends it after this next turn?
Fear cuts deeper than swords.
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