A new mod enters the ring - Introducing "Close to Home"

[xist10]

Towards the praets: I think, they are already relativ "weak".
The stats haven't changed from BtS (yet), so I can use Vodka.
Praets have ~66% winrate against axemen with the same promotions. 25% more for the axemen and the praets only has ~33%.
Praets have already a cost of 50 ~ 1,5 * 35.
If I have 50% more axemen, than I can trade even in units, so prod advantage for the axemen (same promotions).
So axemen are already a okay counter against praets.
So the only advange of the Praets is the unecessary to built other units ?
Even AGG Praets would have to lose hammer-wise against axes. 10 Shock Praets, 10 axemen as defenders (Combat1) and 5 axemen as counters (Combat1).
~7.7 lost axemen, ~5.6 lost Praets.
7,7*35 = 269,5 < 5,6*50 = 280
I think a few UU should counter praets ? Numidians win, dogs and vulture are better than axemen against praets. Bowmen and skirmishers should have an egde in the defensiv.


Okay, this is in theory.
In praxis you have to invest prod in otherthings than axemen, because the other neighbourgh unse HA, but Rome can only built Praets.
But I thing this is fine ? Praets are considered a good UU, but I thing with cost of 55 they could lose a bit of their versatility.


And I think the american UB sounds fine with 2 GPP.
You can get maybe 20 GPP from the UB per turn, but you should only be able to use the GPP in 2 or 3 cities. And an early specific GP ? This is the advantage of the UB.
Maybe a UU nerf to balance that, but...


I think the other changes are good too.

[Mjmd]

Ya reducing corp gold yield is probably simplest if not necessarily best.

Request that palace can't move to where you have forbidden palace...... Yes I could have moved it and was going to, but it still seems silly. Maybe put in the bug section of change log.

I've argued the rest probably too much already.

[Charriu]

As you may have noticed I uploaded the 5.0.0 version with the recently discussed changes. Because I know this will come up. I opted to turn the American UU back to the Navy Seal and leave the UB untouched. Reasons for that is the vote in the other thread and that it is easier to change that one number for anybody else continueing to work on this instead of reverting the UU.

[BING_XI_LAO]

Is there much prospect of further changes to the mod? While it's excellent some questions may have been left unanswered. Apologies if these ideas are repetitive (I've said some before) or stupid - if the latter then please enlighten me, I'm enjoying learning the game in the context of MP. If we don't have a modmaker with Charriu having taken leave, I may learn how to do it myself sometime in early 2024, if only for fun and SP, but possibly also to enact popular ideas...

If the game is played on Emperor Difficulty then ORG is OP
Has there been a poll on this? Shouldn't its maintenance reduction be brought down to 40%, based on what I see others saying?

Swordsmen are underpowered to the point of barely existing
In PB72 Praets again made a name for themselves, if only for keeping a dying Xist alive until Infantry came online. But the other swordsman units are hideously bad! I made a couple Jags for the woodsIII healing effect and that's all. 
Currently the swordsman is a unit that almost doesn't exist in the game. My interpretation is that this is because they're automatically countered, before they come on the field, by the ubiquitous Axeman. What if Axeman/Maceman were changed to +25% vs melee and +25% vs Spear/Pike? That in turn would also require the Praet to be nerfed, but that might be a good thing. If people don't like the Praet's extreme longevity, then a simple reduction to 7 Str, in addition to the Axeman change, would kill two birds with one stone. (Oh and I guess slap the same 25%-melee to 25%-anti-spear conversion on Dog Soldier and Vulture, would that be bad?)

Some traits are a bit weak/boring
Expansive after the cheap granary, doesn't it become completely irrelevant until factories and coal plants are getting built? I don't have an idea for changing it. Actually, isn't it a problem that Health is almost always completely irrelevant and a non-interactive mechanic until lategame? Would the game be more interesting if base Health in all cities was reduced?
Creative starts out strong and unique but then becomes quite irrelevant, how about a -20% discount on unit upgrades, which could be paired with certain bonus-promotion UUs? or a free Artist from Theatres? These could be paired with reducing the flat bonus from +2 to +1. I guess this is too wacky, but you people added the crazy American UB... *grumbles*
Imperialistic could get double production on Security Bureau. It would feel cool to me, but maybe it's feature bloat...

Flanking promo never used, flank attack on siege weapons never used
Just double the withdrawal chance granted by these promotions?

[Mjmd]

I have no clue who that is active still has modding ability or will to do so.

- The solution on org atm seems to be just to play on monarch. We've tossed around changes a few times and nothing has stuck, but I'm not opposed.
- We've had discussion on swordsman. They are useful in breaking cities even into longbows, but they are less good in open battle. The reality of multiplayer warfare is that a lot of the combat happens not against cities. This won't change unless you just make them too good. I'll say praets also preformed well in PB66 and it wasn't just keeping a dead man alive.
- Ya health change would probably not be close to home, but I get it. I've actually been thinking about this and the easiest change would be to just cut the health bonus on granary and then add back in later in the tree over time, but again, probably not in scope in any case. I did try to give expansive the lighthouse bonus from org, but that went no where.
- I LOVE creative. I even love it later in the game. It gives you such a depth of cultural control. But that being said, there are early game traits and late game traits and different variants inbetween. That is part of the trade off of choosing traits.
- American UB... *grumbles* - but that vote was lost.
- Imperialistic - honestly just playing on monarch makes imperialistic more relevant, so another case of maybe monarch is just way to go. I know we used to have stable production bonus for it. I kind of liked that, but it proved a bit much on monarch.
- flanking still works, it was just nerfed. Rightly so. There are still spots for flanking promo, but it just doesn't come up much. There are plenty of promos less useful so don't see need to change this one.

[BING_XI_LAO]

Ah right, yeah, now I remember that I was previously replied to on these two topics of Swordsmen and Flanking... but I still don't get it. Swordsmen too good if buffed? You could give swordsmen 7 Str and they'd still by limited by axes and surpassed by war elephants. And sure they have a niche, I even used some of them in PB69 against indy archers and then against SD longbows. But they're not very good even in that niche.

I wasn't aware or had forgotten that flanking was nerfed. Apologies if I'm repeating myself from a few months back, and have already been told, but when is the last time the Flanking promotions got used as anything other than a pre-requisite for Sentry? Also what's the story of pre-nerf Flanking shenanigans?

Rest of the topics are well-explained. Maybe I'm just salty that my Creative trait got dabbed on the by the corp of the same name in lategame PB72

[Tarkeel]

ORG: The reason we've been playing a lot on EMP lately is actually because ORG was being under-picked, so playing on MONarch is a good fix.

EXP: Don't forget the latest changes moving circumnavigation bonus to harbors, giving EXP a decent mid-game boost. This was the reason we picked it in PB66, and it felt good.

CRE: I like this one as it is; it's actually pretty good with the library bonus.

Late-game buildings: There are several that could get trait bonuses, but this has been discussed earlier and the conclusion was not worth the extra line in the changelog. I'd much rather give IND a bonus to levees.

Don't really have an opinion on swords and the promotions.

[Mjmd]

7 strength swordsmen would also need a hammer increase. They would surpass elephants then just based off of cost (at least for defensive wars). I've used swords in 4-5 games. The current buff does a good job. Yes they don't "kill" longbows in cities, but they do a lot better than any other unit for their cost. Not every unit has to be used in mass.

I have used flanking to try to avoid units dying. IE I know 2 hits will be enough no matter what, but I really don't want to lose the first unit.

[Qgqqqqq]

Coding the XML is extremely easy, and I'm happy to do it if I'm given clear instructions. I have no real interest in driving change, though.

No opinion on swordsman. Flanking the promotion was never nerfed, only the ability to flank catapults.

I said it elsewhere, but is there a reason culture is included in GDP? It feels all it does is confuse people. Not sure how hard that would be to remove.

Creative construction seems to give too much culture.

[Mjmd]

I mean if you can figure out how to remove culture from GNP bless your heart, but at this point I think we are all used to it.

I stated it before but I think how good creative construction culture portion was was abnormal in PB72 due to amount and shape of land. I was Gavs main neighbor in PB66 when he had and it barely affected me. 2 tiles in an older city and then maybe 6 elsewhere. It needs something to make up for the fact its not as raw powerful as mining inc. I think I would want to see more games of it being too good before I made it an even worse version of mining inc.