Yes, that would be imo the way to do it. In case it can't be reloaded to after SD played, SD would also have to be told that he has to replay his turn to the best of his ability - which means not declaring war and claiming the second half (as I sense this might be the next step in this debacle).
(December 5th, 2020, 04:41)Charriu Wrote: 3 ]SD plays, and gets a double-move.
I think Lewwyn and Noble wouldn't like this at all.
(December 5th, 2020, 07:45)Serdoa Wrote: And by the rules:
3. The person declaring war can choose which half of the turn timer they get, so long as they didn't move after the victim on the previous turn.
Therefore it is however attacks first choice which half they take.
6. In a peace-time turn split (eg a settling or hut-popping race) the turn you realise there should be a split is when the order is established.
Both parties realized that there should be a split (or that there in fact is one). Which makes sense given the state of the game. If SD had an issue with that, he should tell it. I really have a hard time having pity with players that clearly realize that someone adheres to a turn-split with them, don't communicate if they have an issue with the split and then start being upset when the other party actually plays according to that turn-split.
4. Don't try to play after another player on a regular basis. If you are trying to prevent them getting the second half when they attack you then you're playing clock games and Krill will find your pathetic civ and crush it. If you are planning to attack them then just drop behind them one or two turns in advance (it's actually less likely to telegraph your intentions). In fact you can play before them the turn before you attack - there is no problem with letting your victim double move you.
Lewwyn didn't try to play after SD on a regular basis, but to adhere to a turn-split, so the first half of that rule was not broken (not that this part is an actual rule). But also they did not try to prevent SD from getting the second half IF SD attacked them, but to setup a turn-split that would make sure that their planned attack would not lead to double-moves.
In closing: If SD wanted the second half, he should not have played himself but add time / pause and state that he will wait for them to play. But he clearly had realized that he was already in a turn-split with them, did not want to declare war but wanted to not let them have the second half when they attack. Breaking pretty clearly rule no. 6. He added bad sportsmanship on top, by not only making them miss their turn but also risk reloading to an early save than his in order to get his way - even to the detriment of all other players of this game.
I'm concerned with this that someone can claim the turn split exists just so they don't get attacked by someone with the second half. Also the silly logical extreme is to go back to the turn you meet and claim the spilt on that turn should stand.
I think it's also better for turn pace to say people shouldn't maintain a peace time turn split.
In this case though I think we agree: we should get SD to replay and have Lewwyn play after and declare war.
Of course, if civac had combat penalising him for these squabbles would be harsh.
Man, I miss a day of lurking and now I'm just lost. The last post in this forum I really read was Lewwyn's where he lays out how he's been camping the turn timer to play after Amicola and SD, so apologies if I'm mistaken. I'll read up, but I wanted to post since everybody (save OH) is looking to adjudicate to repair harm done to Lewwyn.
1) Lewwyn was camping the turn timer, which is a Bad Thing.
2) It's a basic principle of arbitration that people shouldn't profit from their Bad Things.
3) Therefore, whatever resolution happens needs to correct the harms done towards Superdeath.
I'll read up more and respond more fully later, since I dearly love both Lewwyn and SD.
Edit: Wait, no need to reread. This is it:
(December 5th, 2020, 08:41)Old Harry Wrote: In this case though I think we agree: we should get SD to replay and have Lewwyn play after and declare war.
Spoilers for bitching about etiquette.
Both Lewwyn and Superdeath (and everybody talking this nonsense about vague peace time turn splits) seem to unconsciously twist the point of turn order rules. They exist so that Player A does not unfairly disadvantage Player B. Not so that Player A protects himself from disadvantage by Player B. You, the player, observe the rules so you don't do harm, not in order to protect yourself from harm. You trust that the other player will also observe them and therefore you'll be fine. If Player B doesn't, then you get reloads or whatever fix. Player A can't start up the game on Turn 0 and say "I hereby declare I'm last in turn order and I will always be the one ending the turn."
The language about peacetime turn splits in the etiquette use the examples of hut-popping and settler races for clarity. These are specific examples where Player A can gain a clear and unfair advantage by double moving. Keeping a general peacetime turn split isn't the same because that only turns into an advantage once war is declared and is therefore already covered by wartime turn split rules. I appreciate Noble's championing of PBEMs and sequential Pitboss. That's how you play if you want permanent turn order. We ask players in simultaneous pitboss to play as soon as they can to keep the game moving. The big exception is that an attacker can wait until after the potential victim plays. That's it. Look, plenty of times I've seen a turn's rolled and felt "man, I really don't want to play right now." We've all been through that. That's not the same as saying with actions if not words "I hereby claim last in turn order."
The PB53 debacle happened because the players involved literally couldn't declare war any earlier to force a turn split. I admit I laughed when I read:
(December 5th, 2020, 01:06)Lewwyn Wrote: We are in a war situation.
"Are you at war?"
"No."
"So you're at peace?"
"We're in a war situation."
What's that great Russian novel? War & War-Situation? I see in the Pitboss etiquette thread that Charriu has suggested adding a diplo option to indicate turn split. This is going in the opposite direction. Play your turns, people. If you're going to attack that very turn, you can wait. If you're worried about someone else declaring, you can wait and then preemptively declare. Easy peasy.
So, about the remedy that Serdoa and OH proposed, that we reload and Lewwyn makes the turn split official with a second-half war dec, yeah that seems best, but it needs to be made clear to both players that they were in fact playing clock games. If Superdeath waited until the last 2 minutes to play and in those last 2 minutes declared war, and Lewwyn missed his turn because he was waiting to camp the timer, I'd say tough luck. I love both these guys (and even the people here who are making mealy-mouthed mumblings about peace time splits ). Breaks my heart to see people getting IRL angry at others for not following rules that exist only in their own heads.
(December 5th, 2020, 08:57)naufragar Wrote: What's that great Russian novel? War & War-Situation? I see in the Pitboss etiquette thread that Charriu has suggested adding a diplo option to indicate turn split. This is going in the opposite direction. Play your turns, people. If you're going to attack that very turn, you can wait. If you're worried about someone else declaring, you can wait and then preemptively declare. Easy peasy.
I only try to find an in-game solution that prevents these things in the future.
(December 5th, 2020, 10:53)Charriu Wrote: I only try to find an in-game solution that prevents these things in the future.
Oh for sure. I'm not criticizing your intention or implementation. By "opposite direction" I mean that we're moving towards finding ways to enforce peace time turn splits when we should be going the opposite direction and reminding people that outside of very specific cases, they don't exist at all. (But I'll shut up now, so I don't reopen more general rules talk. )
Ok I have the feeling we are getting closer to a solution that looks like this.
1. Reload to the end of the turn
2. Add time for Lewwyn
3. End SD's turn via server. SD declared war taking the first half that way.
4. Lewwyn plays his turn.
5. Lewwyn rolls the turn and pauses.
6. Civac goes in plays his turn and declares war vs AT.
7. AT has to wait for civac.
If this is technically not possible because of #1 then reload to SDs login. He has to replay the same turn. He can declare war. If not we force Lewwyn to declare war claiming the second half.
Is that correct or is there anybody speaking against that.
This is it:
). Breaks my heart to see people getting IRL angry at others for not following rules that exist only in their own heads.
)
